some confusion on dodging missiles

[Matt Wilson]

In last night's game, my character was generating missile pool to nail some guy with a thrown knife, and the guy actually launched a knife in return.

So the rules say a character can dodge a missile attack by spending dice from the combat pool. So did I have all my combat pool dice available to do it? And did my missile pool dice immediately reset at the moment my character chose to dodge?

[Lance D. Allen]

My call:

Missile pool would reset if the character had to move considerably, spoiling his aim.

A full evade would reset his pool.

A partial evade would not, but it would not fill up for that round.

Duck and weave would allow him to fill the pool as normal.

Note that if he dodges or not, he will take all applicable penalties from being hit, if he is hit. He would not use missile pool to dodge with, however, and would have to use raw Reflex.

My own take on it. Jake's answer might vary, but that's how I'd do it if the situation came up.

[Valamir]

I probably would not have thought of that 3 tiered approach...but I like it.

I find given the way evasions are presented in the rules that I often completely forget about the partial and D&W options.

[Lance D. Allen]

Well, the way I see the three types of evasion for dodging missile fire kinda prompts the three-tiered approach.

Consider:

Full evasion: diving to the ground, dodging behind a solid object, or in some other way just getting the hell out of the way, with no concern given to your return attack.

Partial evasion: stepping out of the way at the moment that the dagger is thrown, essentially. Harder to do (hence the higher TN, yo) but it leaves you still in prime position to make your return attack. However, you did have to interrupt the aiming process to focus on saving your hide.

Duck-and-Weave: essentially a dodge which puts you in a position of advantage. This could be cinematically (you roll forward and come up into a crouch in the perfect position to hurl your dagger into your opponent's gut) or realistically (you barely duck out of the way, leaving the majority of your focus on making your dagger and your opponent close acquaintances) described, but the intent is essentially the same. It's a risky maneuver intended to give you advantage if it's successful.

[John Harper]

I like Wolfen's approach. And I'm Matt's Seneschal. :)

I'm going to let him use his CP to dodge with, though. That's kind of what it's for, IMO.

[Brian Leybourne]

I'm going to let him use his CP to dodge with, though. That's kind of what it's for, IMO.

If he's not currently using his weapon (because he has a bow in hand), I say he doesn't get his CP. I would give him his full Reflex for dodging though.

Brian.

[Lance D. Allen]

If he's not currently using his weapon (because he has a bow in hand), I say he doesn't get his CP

My own rationale as well, which perhaps I should have stated. But so long as you're consistent, however you wish to do it in your game is fine.

[John Harper]

Hmmm. That's odd. If Matt's character has a sword in her hand, she gets to use her sword CP to dodge with, but if she's holding a dagger ready to throw, she just gets Reflex? I don't like that at all.

What the character is holding should have almost zero effect on how well they dodge a missile attack. The rulebook says you can dodge missiles with your CP, which makes perfect sense to me. Every kind of weapon training teaches you how to get out of the way of attacks, so they're all equally useful for dodging missiles.

Plus, using the CP to dodge integrates with the melee system better. If Matt's character is in a swordfight, and some third party chucks a knife at her, she can spend some of her CP to dodge that knife (assuming she sees it coming). This leaves her with less CP to use in the swordfight since her attention is split.

[Lance D. Allen]

Much of combat is mindset and training. Evasion with a sword includes using the sword to help you get out of the way. Likewise, when you have a sword in your hand, you're more likely to be subconsciously thinking of the techniques you learned than if you have a dagger in your hand, prepared to throw. As yet, I've never heard of a martial art which centers on throwing daggers and dodging them, and as such, I think reflex is sufficient.

You don't get your full greatsword CP to evade while using an arming sword and shield, after all. You get the default rating, which is essentially what we're doing here, as well.

[John Harper]

Well, we can agree to disagree, Lance. Our opinions differ on this... which is cool.

But here's a thought experiment: Take my Kendo instructor, a 4th degree black belt. Give him a dagger. Set up an archer 50ft. away and fire arrows at him. He'll dodge a few of the arrows, I imagine. He'll probably get hit a few times, too. Now, give him a sword, and fire at him again. Does he suddenly get *better* at dodging those arrows? I don't think so.

[kenjib]

Why not use the missile pool?  The amount the character wishes to dodge determines how badly it effects their aiming process.  However, if they full evade, they are breaking away from the missile engagement, thus they can use missile pool to dodge but lose everything that they have accumulated.

Instead of extra rules, just use the same ones with a different pool.

[Alan]

I considered a hypothetical situation like this recently.  My original interpretation was that if a missileer uses any of his CP, he spoils his aim and drops MP to zero.

I like the evasion options suggested in this thread.  I would be tougher on MP penalties though. Eg:

Full Evasion - Use CP.  MP drops to 0.
Partial Evasion - burn 1 MP per CP in the dodge. No aim increase.
Duck & Weave - burn 1 MP per CP in the dodge, but get aim increase.

Brian makes a good point about using Reflex, though - this is what the rules suggest for dodging when you're not expecting an attack.

[Jake Norwood]

Why not use the missile pool?  The amount the character wishes to dodge determines how badly it effects their aiming process.  However, if they full evade, they are breaking away from the missile engagement, thus they can use missile pool to dodge but lose everything that they have accumulated.

Instead of extra rules, just use the same ones with a different pool.

That's how I'd do it.

Jake

[Ben Lehman]

Why not use the missile pool?  The amount the character wishes to dodge determines how badly it effects their aiming process.  However, if they full evade, they are breaking away from the missile engagement, thus they can use missile pool to dodge but lose everything that they have accumulated.

Instead of extra rules, just use the same ones with a different pool.

BL>  I would like to reiterate my favorite house rule in the world:

 If you want to take a melee action while focusing for a spell or shot, deduct from all active pools.

 This amounts to the same thing, in a unified way.

yrs--
--Ben

[John Harper]

The problem with using the MP is archers get better at dodging (have more dice available) the longer they stand still and aim. Umm. Why should I be better at dodging on round 3 than I was on round 2, when all I'm doing is aiming a bow? Doesn't make sense to me.

The CP is for evasion. Your CP in anything represents skill at avoiding attacks. So that's what I'm using as dodge dice, regardless of what you're holding or how long you've been holding it.