Paradox RPG...

[Darksmith]

I've been working on an RPG called Paradox for what seems like eternity. After finding this site I decided to pick it up again after a very long hiatus. The core system itself is very versatile and has a built in conversion system so you can play you're favorite characters from other games systems in the same universe.

I'm thinking about doing a major redesign to simplify the system and I wanted some input. Basically I can't look at it objectively enough to decide on a direction to go. Anyway here is the core of the system.

Paradox is base on percentages of success. 80% chance of precipitation, 23% chance of snow, etc... This gives a very black and white resolution of events, either it does or it doesn't happen. It also gives a scale of reference against an average. I'm in the top 10% of my class academically. That would give me a 90% rating in academics, but my IQ score is only in the top 20% giving me an IQ of 80%. The percentages are based off of a human average with the rating comparing the individual against the rest of the population. If my Strength is 60% I would be considered stronger that 60% of the worlds population, but weaker that the other 40%.

The Statistics are NOT set in stone. Originally I had eight stats, but the more I look at it the more I think there should be less. Or maybe compact them into a more general grouping. Anyway here they are:

Physical

Strength – A measure of your raw physical strength.
Endurance – A measure of your physical toughness and health.
Reflex – A measure of your reaction time and manual dexterity.

Mental

Intelligence – A measure of your ability absorb raw data.
Idea – A measure of your ability to successfully apply said data in useful ways.
Will – A measure of you mental strength and ability to focus.

Social

Charm – A measure of your persuasive abilities.
Appearance – A measure of your physical appearance.

To be completely honest I really hate the Social group of statistics. I'm a firm believer in ROLE play for such things, not ROLL play. With that said, I do understand that there are some people that game without the social skill to role play in such a way and this is a concession for these people. The problem is if I drop down to six stats I might as well rename them the d20 stats, but I don't want to draw that close of a parallel since the game is not a d20 system.

Skills are divided into two categories: Skill & Specialties. The Skills are general and broad based, like Drive, Run, Spot, etc... Specialties are a subclass of skill that adds on to the parent skill. Confused yet? Let's say you have the Drive skill at 50%. You drive better that 49% of the general populace. Now let's say you have the Drive skill at 50% with a specialty in Sports Cars at 20%. That would give you the skill to Drive Sports Cars with 69% better than the general populace, but you Drive all other vehicles (Sedans, Trucks, Compacts, etc...) at your normal Drive skill rating.

The way to determine you're percentage with a skill is determined by your Stats (the representation of your natural amplitudes). Skills very rarely rely on just one facet of your being no matter how straightforward it seems. Take the Drive skill. It would fall under Intelligence (ability to absorb raw data) and Reflex (reaction time and dexterity). I have a Intelligence of 60% and a Reflex of 40%. I'm pretty smart, but I don't get out for much physical activity. I prefer strategy games as opposed to first person shooters. I'm learning how to drive. I would take 1/4th of my Intelligence score and Reflex score to get my base Drive skill, which would be 25% (15% for Intelligence 10% for Reflex). I know you're thinking that that is really low, but remember this is just my natural ability at an untrained level. The reason I chose to divide the stat by a forth and add them together is based on the principle that half of anything you know is based on natural ability and the other have on experience.

The dice mnemonic is based on four siders... I'm just kidding, it's percentage dice. You roll under the skill you succeed, over you fail. Now here is the kicker, everytime you fail the skill increases 1%! Now this does max out at lowest of the two stats that make up the skill. My Drive skill would max out quickly at 40% (equal to my Reflexes) with me trying to learn it through trial and error. I order for me to get any better I would need to find someone with this skill at a high percent than me to teach me. This can be an NPC (Driver's Ed teacher) or another PC. Specialties can only be taught. You cannot trial and error your way through the ins and outs of a getting every bit of performance out of a 2004 Dodge Viper.

Now with that said, there is a way around this. If you roll 10% or lower you can choose to get a specialty in whatever you're doing on that roll or increase the current specialty you're rolling on by 1%.

I've got more but I don't want to overwhelm everyone with every nuance of the combat system and stuff, but I do want feedback on what is currently here. So please, if you have any thoughts let me know.

Thanks in advance,

Darksmith

[orbsmatt]

Well I have to say that your system is very interesting.  You must like statistics a lot!

Anyways, I have a quick question before giving any input:  could you give an example of a situation that you would have to resolve using skills (say combat, or some difficult feet) and how you would apply modifiers?

One quick thing that I could comment on right away is that it appears (and I stress appears) that characters would develop their skills rather quickly.  Is there a cap that you can get to (say 95%) or do modifiers bring you down to realistic levels?

Matthew

[Zak Arntson]

Two quick questions:

1) What do the characters do in Paradox? I can't tell from the system provided, so I can't comment on how the system holds up.

2) Why are social skills an anathema? How is rolling a strength check for lifting different than rolling a charm check for bluffing?

I'm not asking these to be snarky. I'd like to see the reasons behind design decisions and open them up for discussion.

Lastly, I do like the 1% increase with a cap; but why only when you fail at the skill? Using a skill successfully also provides insight, yes?

[Jeph]

Why have artificial attribute groups at all? Just list them, and don't feel like you need to provide any more categorization than that.

Also, I noticed that you don't have anything relating to perception--would you currently mark it as a function of Reflex or Idea? A Skill that relies upon the two? Another stat? Another option is to make it another stat entirely instead of grouping it in with another.

I too am interested in what Paradox is all about. More info on the premise/setting and design goals will make it easier for us to assist you.

Good luck,
--Jeff

[Nathan P.]

I want to know why it's called Paradox. It's a great RPG name, but what does it mean?

Thank you for your time,
Nathan P.

[greyorm]

To be completely honest I really hate the Social group of statistics. I'm a firm believer in ROLE play for such things, not ROLL play. With that said, I do understand that there are some people that game without the social skill to role play in such a way and this is a concession for these people.

Alright, so you have a lack of compassion for "roll" players, hence my biggest question is how well will you be able to design rules supporting "roll" playing when you yourself do not like or utilize such methods?

As you don't use them, don't "believe" in their use, so how well are you going to be able to judge their effects upon or effectiveness within the system (without extensive playtesting using a style of play you abhor)?

I don't see "tacking them on" as a particularly viable option when you consider the overall design of the game; chances are such an effort would be (rightly) seen as clunky and tacked-on, failing to match with the goals and play of the rest of the system (which would be designed for play without their inclusion).

So, what am I saying? Take them out. But be aware you will lose some of your potential audience by doing so. (For example, I myself am not particularly fond of systems which presume to tell me that I must be an actor, diplomat or public speaker in order to play a character who has these skills. That, however, is a completely seperate discussion; the above is far more relevant to your current query).

The problem is if I drop down to six stats I might as well rename them the d20 stats, but I don't want to draw that close of a parallel since the game is not a d20 system.

I don't see that as a particular problem; consider that your system is different enough that having six stats with the same names is not going to result in "comparison" with d20...nor do I see why you would have to rename them to match the d20 stats, rather than just leaving them as is?

[Darksmith]

Anyways, I have a quick question before giving any input:  could you give an example of a situation that you would have to resolve using skills (say combat, or some difficult feet) and how you would apply modifiers?

Well here is the meat of the skill/combat resolution. There are two types, challenged and unchallenged. A challenged skill check is done when you have someone or something challenging your ability to perform a particular action. This type is usually used for combat. The aggressor has the advantage of initiating an action which puts the defender in a reactionary state. When this happens the aggressor rolls on his skill to see whether the attack succeeds, if not then you move on the next combatant. If it does you fine the difference that he succeed by and apply that as a penalty to the defenders skill. Sounds like a lot of math? It is, but I have a chart to make it all better.

Example: "Night" is a dark elf from a fantasy based world with swords and sorcerers, but he came across the bad side of a particular nasty necromancer named Le'gre that was very tired of Night's interloping. So during a violet conflict Le'gre tries to cast a Banish spell on Night sending him into some distant time and space where he will never bother the Le'gre again! Le'gre rolls on his Skill of Cast Spells of 73% and a specialty of Banish that's at 9% (The necromancer developed the Banish spell on his own so he doesn't have a mentor to teach it to him, so it only increased when he roll under 10% while casting it). He rolls a 64% which is 18% less than his 82% chance to succeed! Night now has to resist the spells possible effect as Le'gre's hand begins to glow in this unnatural purple light. Looking at Night's options he can either try to dodge what is happening of try to just resist it. His dodge is a 64% but he does have Resist with a specialty in Magic that totals 71%. He chooses to go with his resistance and rolls a 66%! Night relieved but then the GM applies the 18% against his Resistance to Magic of 71% reducing it to 53%. As the purple beam of arcane energies erupt from the dark necromancers hand towards Night, instead of trying to avoid the beam he continues to charge forward. The beam strikes him as he thrust his sword forward to skewer Le'gre as Night fades into nothingness. Night rematerializes in a world where metal vehicles fly through the sky and buildings made of glass and steel rise high into the air. The dark elf sheaths his sword and mutters to himself, "Not again..."

Unchallenged skill checks involve things like picking a lock or finding something that has been hidden. Let's say someone designed a lock to keep people out of a computer room and you're trying to open it. You're Open Lock skill is 68% and the lock is pretty good but not top of the line so it is rated 25%. You subtract the 25% from your 68% skill. You would have to roll under 43% to open it. This is without a tool or anything to help you. I need to make a more comprehensive list of items that help with various tasks and such.

Two quick questions:

1) What do the characters do in Paradox? I can't tell from the system provided, so I can't comment on how the system holds up.

2) Why are social skills an anathema? How is rolling a strength check for lifting different than rolling a charm check for bluffing?

Lastly, I do like the 1% increase with a cap; but why only when you fail at the skill? Using a skill successfully also provides insight, yes?

I originally designed the system to be a multigenre system that allowed people to ply there favorite characters from any other system they wanted in one universal setting. I was apart of a gaming organization in Jacksonville, North Carolina (home of Camp Lejeune Marine Corp. base). Every weekend someone different would run a different campaign with a different system and everyone had characters that they loved, but it got to the point that everyone wanted to play a different system so they could play they're favorite characters. So one weekend while everyone was arguing about what game to play I started looking over the various systems trying to find a common ground that we could all agree on when it hit me. All the systems had humans. These human's have stats. These stats have minimum and maximum numbers for the human's that created an average. So for the next week (much to the detriment of my classes – I was in college at the time) I worked on a crude version of the core mechanics until I had something I thought would be workable. The next weekend I arrived at the USO early and as people walked in I had them take there favorite character and convert them over to my new system. After a lot of ad hoc I started running an adventure base on an anime call Silent Mobius. They loved it. To the players, they compared it to a crossover of different comic book heroes that you would never see (which now seems commonplace). Hence why I called the system Paradox RPG since it brought a group of characters that should not even exist together (its testing name was UC for Ultimate Conversion... how lame is that?). I haven't created custom universe for it because by nature it's a chameleon and never the same twice. A Paradox if you will.

The Social skill issue is one of my own biases. This is one of the reasons why I'm posting the system. I love the social aspect of gaming. Taking on a role and being another person for a few hours' appeals to me. I always love being in character and trying to con my way past a NPC. Most GM's I've games with would either give me a bonus to my bluff rolls because of my acting in character or sometimes they would decide that the no roll was needed at all! Orbsmatt commented that I must like Statistics and for some things I do, but as a judge of personality I don't. Now with all that said I'm not going to just toss the social attributes. Greyorm has a good point, if I don't believe in them them I can't be a fair judge of their uses. This is why I need help and suggestions.

As for the experience system I wanted it to 'frontload' the game play. The skills start off at a rather low percentage and it could get rather frustrating early on because it's hard to be heroic with an average of 25% chance of succeeding. You'll get one out of every four rolls right which if I gave experience per success would drive everyone crazy. This way if they don't have instruction then they still get something out of it. Three experience points out of every four tries make it a little bit more tolerable to suffer through the little stuff. But if you notice Specialties are another creature entirely. You can only increase them through successful rolls and not just any successful roll at that. A character will advance quickly, but the further they go the harder they have to work at it.

Also, I noticed that you don't have anything relating to perception--would you currently mark it as a function of Reflex or Idea? A Skill that relies upon the two? Another stat? Another option is to make it another stat entirely instead of grouping it in with another.

Perception or Awareness would be just like any other skill. It's based off of Intelligence (your ability absorb raw data) and Idea (your ability to successfully apply said data in useful ways). The Paradox system is design in such a way that players that try new things are rewarded immediately. The first time you look for something you would try to roll underneath your natural amplitude of your Intelligence and Idea added together. Odds are you're going to fail the first couple of times, but you automatically gain experience in this new skill. Now remember the skills are broad base and very generic. Awareness and Perception count for a lot of things like spotting, searching, detecting, avoiding ambushes, etc... You'll develop your skills at a pretty fast pace, but you don't get really good at them until you begin to specialize.

There are situations where more than just two stats apply. Going back to my Le'gre and Night example, Night had a skill called Melee which combines Strength and Reflex. Le'gre also has Melee, but he uses Reflex and Intelligence. How is this so, you ask. Night learned how to fight to survive. He's learned through is own experiences and whatever teacher he could find. In his world you had to be stronger and faster than everyone else. Le'gre learns his style in the safety of the mages academy. He wasn't exposed to the dangers and life threatening situations that Night had to learn in. The art of the melee combat is more analytical to Le'gre. He doesn't rely on brute strength, but cunning intellect. He had the Reflexes that Night does, but instead of bashing away until he gets through he find the best places to take his shots. He isn't trying to do massive damage, but just enough to cripple his opponent through speed and accuracy. It's the same skill, but it was created in different ways.

I think I answered both Nathan and Greyrom with my explanations for the others, but if I didn't or I missed something please let me know.

I hope this helps everyone out a bit more with what the game is about and possibly where it's going. I can always use some constructive criticism.

Thanks,

Darksmith

[Ben O'Neal]

your system sounds pretty comprehensive and interesting. i'd be interested in giving it a try when you are finished.

as for your social skill question, why not just have a rule that your players must roleplay social things to gain bonuses to their skills. alternatively, you could just allow them to choose between one or the other when they want to. it doesn't necessarily have to be all or nothing, they could be like a backup option. i dunno, just a thought.

[coxcomb]

Taking on a role and being another person for a few hours' appeals to me. I always love being in character and trying to con my way past a NPC. ... Now with all that said I'm not going to just toss the social attributes.

Social attributes help players that want to portray a character who is better at the social stuff than they are. You can still define bonuses for good roleplaying and whatnot, but the mechanics keep the path open to those who don't "act" as well as you apparently are. Just like the fictional character knows things that the player doesn't, they need not be socially the same.

Also, a comment about the core mechanic: If the scheme you have in mind is (Base Roll - Difficulty + Whatever) or less on d100, you may run into problems with the reality of how often characters succeed. That is, players may find that their characters fail more than they would expect when thinking logically about their stats. E.g. "My lockpicking is 50, so I'm better than 49% of the other lock-pickers in the world--but I still fail half of the time--I suck!"

There are a few ways to fix this:

1.) You can stress in the rules that easy and routine tasks get a bonus. So if I want to open a standard lock with my 50% lockpicking, the actual target is actually 60% or 70%. My experience is that this method doesn't always work. It is easy for the GM to overlook such a bonus.  

2.) Be VERY VERY specific in the rules about when you should ask for a roll. If I know that I am better than 49% of the lock-picking public, I should be able to pick most locks with ease. The GM should have clear guidance that a roll is only required for difficult or unusual locks.

3.) Up the scale. Instead of rating stats relative to the human population, have the range go up beyond 100% to account for modifiers. This option doesn't seem to mesh with your design goals but it would work.

Contrary to the beliefs of many game designers (particularly in older games) there is very little appeal to playing a character that is ineffectual.

[Darksmith]

Social attributes help players that want to portray a character who is better at the social stuff than they are. You can still define bonuses for good roleplaying and whatnot, but the mechanics keep the path open to those who don't "act" as well as you apparently are. Just like the fictional character knows things that the player doesn't, they need not be socially the same.

Like I said, I'm not going to throw the Social statistics out. I needed to know how people felt about them to make a decision on keeping them or not. From what everyone is writing I can see that the it's very important to keep them in the system.

Also, a comment about the core mechanic: If the scheme you have in mind is (Base Roll - Difficulty + Whatever) or less on d100, you may run into problems with the reality of how often characters succeed. That is, players may find that their characters fail more than they would expect when thinking logically about their stats. E.g. "My lockpicking is 50, so I'm better than 49% of the other lock-pickers in the world--but I still fail half of the time--I suck!"[/qoute]

Actually I didn't really give a good example for lockpicking. I should have made it clear that with a skill of 50% that you can defect a lock half the time WITHOUT ANY TOOLS. Basically you can pickup a bobbypin or a fork and jimmy a lock 50% of the time. Now if you have a set of lockpicks that would give you 20% to 30% bonus added to your skill. Sorry, I should have made that a little more clear.

Up the scale. Instead of rating stats relative to the human population, have the range go up beyond 100% to account for modifiers. This option doesn't seem to mesh with your design goals but it would work.

Actually it is possible to get percentages beyond the 100% threshold. Let's say I had my Dodge skill up to 95% and I have a specialty in dodging Swords thats at 25%. If someone attacked me with a sword and I choose to dodge I would have a base of 120% before they apply the difference that the attacker succeed by as a penalty.

Night, trapped in a future world it trying to find a way back to his time when he is attacked suddenly by a man in hooded black trenchcoat baring a sword. The attacker rolls on his Melee skill (80%) with a specialty in Swords (35%) giving him a 115% chance to hit. He rolls a 40%! Night now has to Dodge this attack with a penalty of 75% to his skill. His Dodge skill is 64% and he has a specialty in dodging Swords of 23%. That give him an 87% minus the 75% penalty equals 12% chance to escape from the attack of this master swordsman. Night amazingly rolls an 08% to barely avoid the attack! A familar voice echoes in the alley as Night recovers from the sudden attack, "You left us and they all died. I don't know how you survived, but your life will end now!" As the man approaches the shocked and bewilered dark elf, Night says in a questioning voice, "Darin?!?"

In theroy it's possible to improve you're skills and specialties to 100% each but it would be amazingly difficult and time consuming. At that point your character's wouldn't be heroes anymore, they'd be superheroes!

[coxcomb]

Actually I didn't really give a good example for lockpicking. I should have made it clear that with a skill of 50% that you can defect a lock half the time WITHOUT ANY TOOLS. Basically you can pickup a bobbypin or a fork and jimmy a lock 50% of the time. Now if you have a set of lockpicks that would give you 20% to 30% bonus added to your skill. Sorry, I should have made that a little more clear.

That sounds better--you did mention that it was a roll without tools, but I missed it the first time.

I have an innate overreaction to percentile-based games. The one's I played back in the '80s always seemed to start your characters out in a state of incompetency. Your system sounds a bit better, given the specialties and whatnot. I'd love to see it fleshed out a bit!

[Darksmith]

I have an innate overreaction to percentile-based games. The one's I played back in the '80s always seemed to start your characters out in a state of incompetency.

I see you've played Chaosium systems before *smirk*. I've run into a lot of percentile systems that terrified me in the past. I've tried to make the system allow for various degree of competency without being over powering. I'm thinking about putting in an Age experience system for Character Generation so that you can play older characters and have quite a few skills at higher percentage than starting character of younger ages. To counter balance this, I would have the starting stats not as high. This way you would have alot of high percentage skills but your learning by trial and error would be lower than a younger character that is still learning things.

I'm not sure how to go about this sort of system and I haven't found a system that does anything like this... adding skills for age, but limiting the upper limit of untrained skills. I've started working on a system using the average life expectancy from the U.S. Census Bureau's International Data Base. I'll test it with my group to see how it works. If it goes okay I'll post a copy for reveiw.

[Zak Arntson]

Two quick questions:

1) What do the characters do in Paradox? I can't tell from the system provided, so I can't comment on how the system holds up.

2) Why are social skills an anathema? How is rolling a strength check for lifting different than rolling a charm check for bluffing?

Lastly, I do like the 1% increase with a cap; but why only when you fail at the skill? Using a skill successfully also provides insight, yes?

I originally designed the system to be a multigenre system that allowed people to ply there favorite characters from any other system they wanted in one universal setting.  ...

I see that there's a history behind your genericized rulebase. My take on generic rpgs is identical to that on generic boardgames. Me, I want Risk 2210 when I want to focus on futuristic conquest, Settlers of Cataan for a great trading strategy game, and so on. You can't make a generic boardgame more Risk than Risk; providing the ability to play Chess, Draughts, Civilization, and the Game of Life with the same boxed rules set won't work.

Enough ranting, on to what I found the most interesting:

The Social skill issue is one of my own biases. This is one of the reasons why I'm posting the system. I love the social aspect of gaming. Taking on a role and being another person for a few hours' appeals to me. I always love being in character and trying to con my way past a NPC.

What is the difference between using Strength and Charm to provide an outcome for attempted actions? In either case you do some roleplaying, a conflict ensues, and the dice are rolled to determine the outcome.

Player: "I'm pushing my shoulder into the door and shoving hard." (roll strength, fail) "Ouch! Rubbing the bruise, I turn to Manny.
Player (talking as PC): "'Hey, Manny, you're big and strong. Could you push this for me? I mean, you're so freaking huge, it'd probably burst into pieces!" (roll charm, fail)
Player 2 (as Manny): "'Hell no, Chuck, remember last time? My hair's still patchy from that fire trap.'"
Player (as Chuck): "'Aw, I'm sure there ain't no fire trap here. Remember that sulfur smell? None of that here. It's gotta be clean. C'mon, did you forget why we call you The Manny?." (uses some mechanic to roll another charm, success)
Player 2 (as Manny): "You saying I can't do it? I'll show you!" (rolls strength)

Just as the physical/mental stats guide the outcomes of decisions, social stats can do the same, all with room for roleplaying. See Dying Earth for an excellent example of extensive social role-playing guided by the system.

[Darksmith]

Like I said, I'm not going to throw the Social statistics out. I needed to know how people felt about them to make a decision on keeping them or not. From what everyone is writing I can see that the it's very important to keep them in the system.

I'm keeping the Social statistics.

As for trying to be everything to everyone, I'm not. You can't take Drizzt and drop him into the Marvel Universe. It just doesn't work. My game isn't trying to replace the world/system that the character comes from. It's trying to give the players more avenues to play their characters. New situations, new adventures without limitation. Imagine Dr. Strange confronting Elminster in the astral plane! What rules do you use, D&D or Marvel Universe? How do you gage the Socerer Supreme against the Chosen of Mystra? They've both been to hell and back. They've both face otherworldly threats beyond comprehension. Paradox isn't trying to replace D&D or Marvel. All it's trying to do is to give a level playing field that is not bias to either. We distill everything down to the numbers and let the players and the dice decided the outcome.

I know some people will not like this kind of idea, but I think others will embrace it. All I ask is for people to keep a open mind and point me in direction that makes the system better than it was before.

Sorry about the mini rant.

[Zak Arntson]

I'm keeping the Social statistics.

That's a design decision for you to make, but I want you to be explicit on how they are used in-game. Earlier, you said, "To be completely honest I really hate the Social group of statistics. I'm a firm believer in ROLE play for such things, not ROLL play." If roleplaying can determine entirely how the social outcomes work (rather than a social stat roll), then by all means, get rid of social statistics. Your game rules need to support the way you want people to play.

My solution (placing an equal roleplaying priority on any stat tests) is just one of many.

Imagine Dr. Strange confronting Elminster in the astral plane! What rules do you use, D&D or Marvel Universe? How do you gage the Socerer Supreme against the Chosen of Mystra? ... All it's trying to do is to give a level playing field that is not bias to either. We distill everything down to the numbers and let the players and the dice decided the outcome.

Now we're getting into the meat of your game. What is it that the players do? Your choice of words, one character against the other; a level playing field. Are the PCs pitted against each other? Are they functioning parts of a balanced team?

As far as the question what rules do you use, my answer is that it depends. Different systems emphasize and encourage different play behaviors. What type of behavior do you want to encourage from your players? What behaviors do you want to discourage?

Sorry about the mini rant.

Hey, ranting's all good, so long as it's part of the overall discussion and the minds stay open (even if in disagreement).