"naked Dwarf" syndrome and a posible fix

[Brian Leybourne]

I would mention that there'll be something on that in TFOB, but then I might get accused of taunting you all again, so I wont.

Brian.

[sirogit]

I'm willing to bet a steroid-bleeding freak would still not be able to decapitate someone with a dull rapier.

I don't see what's wrong with thinking of Strength and Toughness as entirely puportional, anyway. A very weak man(ST 2) and a somewhat robust individual(TO 5) would be at the same standing as an above averagely strong man(ST 5) and a superhumanly resistant individual(TO 8)

Now, the first comparison would be something like if you had a anorexic fashion model versus an average heavyweight boxer. I'm willing to bet the model would have a lot of trouble punching the boxer out, besides the fact she doesn't have any formal training in it. In Tros, for her firsts to hurt him she'd have to get atleast 6 additionial damage.

A person with TO 8 would be to the boxer as the boxer is to the anorexic model. What's unrealistic for that to be a tall hurdle to pass?

[Jaif]

Again, flesh is flesh.  There's nothing you can do to change that.  That's why high toughness has a false feel to it.  Sure, there are occasions where a rasputin survives a tremendous amount of shock, but move the bullets an inch one way or another to sever an artery and he's dead despite his toughness & will.

RE: Steroids.  For realism, I could see limiting strength as well, but you should put the limit to strength higher than toughness IMO.  

RE: "Soft" toughness.  Do something like this: make the same damage calculation, but don't subtract toughness.  Now, add 1+ the final damage number (inc str, wpn, armor), and roll toughness dice.  Each success subtracts.  A lucky roll subtracts all of the dice (bullet misses artery), an unlucky roll and your toast.  Of course, this makes the system a lot bloodier. :-)

RE: Decapitation by wet noodle.  Rolemaster & Warhammer had this problem with descriptions violating 'reality'.  The simple answer is to modify or ignore the dumb description, but keep the numbers.  So your rapier may not decapitate the person, it's just slices through the kneck to the spinal column and stops.  Same difference, person is dead.

-Jeff

[toli]

Now, the first comparison would be something like if you had a anorexic fashion model versus an average heavyweight boxer. I'm willing to bet the model would have a lot of trouble punching the boxer out, besides the fact she doesn't have any formal training in it.

Another alternative to the whole TO/ST problem might be to have TO act differently by damage type.  

With unarmed damage especially, the full TO rating should probably apply.  I find it highly unlikely that I could KO any heavy weight boxer.  

With bladed weapons and puncture weapons TO might only negate ST to 0 because flesh is only so strong.  THis would give a big advantage to fighting with a dagger vs fighting bare handed....

I'm not sure how one would handle maces...NT

[bearer]

Actually i havent read all the post here, had no time!
but here is what im planning to use

So you have TO, in my tought only ½ of it is "armor" and the rest is lvl1 wounds, im not good at this explanation so ill make an example

TO 6 has "ar" 3 points, damages from 4 to 6(or to 7) is processed as lvl1 wounds everything more than 7 gives the normal damage lvl up to the lvl5 lethals

With this, eaven the touhgest guys take minnor woulds but still there is no more critical woulds than normal ruleset. So now you can scratch more often, and there is less cases where you stab opponent with dagger with no effect.

[lokdu]

I think tougness is really a problem when you got armor too . 5 tougness look like decent but when you add 4 for chain mail its a lot.
I'm agree with tougness can negate shock , but no way to negate a weapon damage  with your toughness.
So i will say toughness negate shock but no damage and i will give more protection when you wear armor ( chain 5 or 6 and plate 7 or 8 ).
You dont have armor ? well dodge dodge dodge or parry or.....run

[Edge]

It has been said before and i am quite happy to say it agaiin :)
having alot of toughness can definantly negate dmg.  Or rather the dmg is there but it doesn't effect you.  So in a system (which i love) where there are only five levels of wounds rather than hitpoints the only way to simulate it is to negat the wound altogether.

I have seen big blokes shrug of dmg that would down lesser guys.  
Which i can tell you is a bit disconcerting when it is you trying to take that big guy down :)

[lokdu]

big block , if you wants but with sharp weapon it's not big block it's flesh damage and nobody have a iron flesh , the reason why i think toughness help with shock ( big block effect ) but not with damage .
I can show you some mens who can break some very hard things with arms and legs or smash a wall with head but if i say ok now i hit you with this sword and you resist ....... oh come on you are a big men with high toughness .

[Edge]

One of the jobs i used to have was that of a bouncer at various nightclubs and pubs.  I have seen plenty of fights in these places and i remember one occassion when a bloke got glassed in the head with a pint.  He had most of a glass sticking into his head.  He then proceeded to beat the crap out of the guy who hit him with it... after taking him out, most of his mates and one of the other bouncers i managed to get him out side.  It was here that he pulled the glass out of his head and face and asked me to call an ambulance for him.
Apart from the jagged cut down his face he wasn't really all that worse for wear... it was mainly cosmetic... on the other hand i have seen smaller guys glassed and ended up straight in hospital straight away

[lokdu]

For me its chance factor , not toughness . The nex time perhaps he will loose 1 eye or will have a "pierced the throat , destroying the larynx and jugular " with the same hit because his toughness give no protection to eyes and throat .It was not his day , lucky man .
By the way you can have this kind of luck too with spiritual attribute but not with your toughness.

[Tash]

I've been considering how to make high toughness less of a guranteed resistance to damage (its basically permanent armor as I see it).  I was wondering about this method:

Damge is defined as normal, then modified by armor.  The target then rolls their toughness against a TN = the damage done.  Each success cancels one point of damage.  New number becomes the actual amount applied to the target.

Has anyone used something like this in a game and if so how does it work?

[Edge]

it increases the number of rolls in a dice heavy combat system.
I really don't seem to have problem with TO in the game.  Basically you have to perform maneovres that eventually give you a significant dice advantage where you go in for the kill

[Dain]

Newbie observation (probably not correct, but I thought I'd mention it to see what Jake and Brian have to say about it). People seem to be having trouble with the word toughness and the dictionary meaning. They are assuming that the person is STILL being gutted by the attack but is somehow ignoring the effects (and consequently the gaping holes in their bodies). Obviously this is not the case because if it were then there would still be all the bleeding, organ damage,  etc, that normally would have been inflicted (I mean...really...shrug it off all you like, but if a blade buries itself in your chest there is going to be physical damage done that needs to be repaired).

Is it worth considering a "redefinition" of that stat to quell the cries of discomfort with it (yes, I'm aware of the ridiculousness of that suggestion due to reprinting the books, etc,....and I realize there is zero chance it is ever going to actually happen, but at least hear out my reasoning even though it is out of the question...just so I know whether or not you think my line of thought is reasonable or complete trash). To me it really seems like this TO stat is really a "damage avoidance" stat, not a "shrug off the damage" stat...just due to the way it works. Actual damage done is incoming damage - TO, and incoming wounds ACTUALLY lessen or just plain vanish if the TO is sufficiently high. Now since that's actual WOUNDING that is changing and not REACTION TO wounding that is changing, it really doesn't sound to me like "shrugging off"...it sounds like "avoiding it in the first place". Perhaps the stat would be more readily accepted by the masses if it were called something like DamageAvoidance. Basically the mechanics would remain the same but the description of what's going on changes a little, possibly into a little more palatable form. The description "DamageAvoidance" basically would mean "rolling with the blow to lessen effect (backing up, diving, etc, in the same direction as the incoming blow so it just grazes you lightly instead of just standing there and letting it bury itself deeply in a stationary target)". Another description could be "contorting your body to avoid the well placed blow (turning sideways so that rapier grazes your chest instead of just standing there chest forward and letting it bury itself in your heart)". Yet another description could be "on an incoming wide cut, stepping inside the opponent's guard to take the lesser damage near the opponent's slower moving and less sharpened part of the blade instead of out at the rapidly moving and heavily sharpened tip of the blade where damage would be severe due to motion, torque, etc,..."

Again...newbie here....probably completely off base, and I know that...but I thought I'd mention it anyhow to see what people thought.

<grin> ok, now everybody in unison..."you're an idiot you stupid newbie. That makes no sense at all and we've heard better reasoning out of a dead squid. Isn't your mom calling or something? Don't go away mad...just go away."

[Edge]

I see where your coming from here but i don't think it really works that way.  This is my opinion anyway.  
The ability to avoid dmg is based on agility and that is worked into your CP and therefore you defence.
I also like to think of TO as how Tough my character looks.  That combined with ST. but def not ST by itself

[Dain]

Back at you Edge. Understand where you're coming from too. I'm not quite so much thinking this of an "evasion" though (especially since there is already a skill for that), but more like a "damn, I screwed up and this is going to hurt,...at least I can twist or squirm a little bit (probably as a reflex more than anything else) to minimize the gore. I probably should have mentioned that....that I'm thinking of it more as an "I failed to get out of the way whether by parry or evasion or whatever, now skill doesn't enter into it anymore and my body reflexes curse my brain and take over to try to keep me from dying ."