The Paperwork of Bullets

[Eric Provost]

Greetings all,

If I may steal some of your time and thoughts, I'd love a little inspiration here.  What I'm looking for are suggestions for keeping track of ammunition in a high-action, big-combat, Lots-o-Firearms game.  What I'm trying to avoid is heavy-paperwork or any activity which may interrupt the flow of action too much.  What I would like is something that feels 'smooth' while assisting to simulate high-action cinema, and still maintaining a sense of 'game play'.

Did any of that make any sense, or was it more like babbling?

Anyway, perhaps I can clarify by presenting the ideas I've had so far.

Beads in bowls.  Player puts X beads in a nearby bowl, then takes one at a time out to represent rounds spent.  I like it because it's very visual, and gets the added bonus of being tactile.  I don't like it because I imagine that there may be alot of reloading going on, and it seems like refilling the bowls might be too much of an interruption in game play.

Numbers on the sheet.  The player just uses basic math skills to keep track of how many rounds they have left.  It's nice & simple, has pretty much no effect on the flow of the game.  The problems I have here is that it's basically boring.  No visual, no tactile.  And, unless the players use something like a laminated sheet for keeping track, then they wind up erasing through the poor paper in just a handful of combat scenes.  If they do use some form of laminate sheet, then the markers we find available tend to make a mess.

Checking off boxes.  This is the one I'm leaning towards right now.  The players get a little card with a simple picture of their weapon's magazine on it.  Super-imposed on the picture are a number of little blocks to check off equal to the maximum number of rounds in the weapon.  Faster than math and more visual.  The only downside that's really getting to me for this one right now is the amount of prep necessary before the game.  The way I'm imagining it, I'd need to make sure that there is a different card to represent every size magazine in the game.

Anyway, I suppose it's not so much of me having a problem with checking off boxes, but more of me trying to see if there's a better way.  Or, more accurately, a way that Tastes Great, and is Less Filling.  

I appreciate any input & inspiration you may have for me.

-Eric

[Jack Aidley]

Hi Eric,

From your post, I get the impression you're going for a cinematic-style guns 'n' action game. If that's so I have to wonder why you want to track ammunition at all. What do you think it'll add to the game that's worth the book-keeping? Isn't the feel of a guns 'n' action film better captured by not having ammo at all?

[Valamir]

Heh, I knew a guy who liked to track his ammo with a Pez dispenser.  Before every battle he'd systematically load it like he was putting rounds into a clip.  He then set the candy next to the miniature he was shooting at.  If he hit, he ate the candy.  If he missed, he threw it away.  He was wierd ;-)

Have you concidered alternatives to tracking each bullet, or is the counting of bullets a desired game activity?

[Eric Provost]

I'd intended to mention this in my original post, but just forgot.

I gave a lot of thought to just not tracking ammo at all.  It really is counter productive to the idea of cinematic gunplay.  However, as I'm designing this game for a select group of friends to play, I polled them on the idea.  The general consensus seems to be that they'd feel like they're getting away with something if the ammo wasn't being kept track of in one form or another.

Perhaps some thoughts on tracking some way to determine when it's time to reload, without the actual paperwork of individual bullets?

[edited for rambling]

[Lxndr]

Perhaps a roll during every break in a gunfight.  If it "fails", you have to take an action "reloading."?  Or alternatively, a certain result on any roll (something that could be linked to either success or failure... what's the rest of the system like?)

[Jack Aidley]

Ok, cool.

Beads in bowls. Player puts X beads in a nearby bowl, then takes one at a time out to represent rounds spent. I like it because it's very visual, and gets the added bonus of being tactile. I don't like it because I imagine that there may be alot of reloading going on, and it seems like refilling the bowls might be too much of an interruption in game play.

Why not do it the other way round? So that the players drop beads into a bowl for bullets used - that way they need only tip the bowl out to reload. Dice tubes might work better, as they'd be visually full when reloading is required.

I don't know what system you're using for your game, but assuming your going with a round based system you might find it better to count ammo by rounds of firing that actual bullets.

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

Based on my experiences with the game Hong Kong Action Theater and Extreme Vengeance, I suggest this tactic:

A failed roll (a missed shot) indicates the possibility that you have run out of bullets. If you miss, then do some kind of gun-check (another roll, possibly), and if you fail that, then you must re-load.

What if you've just re-loaded, such that having to re-load again seems unlikely? Easy - just interpret the same result as a jam, and thus you must clear the jam.

Best,
Ron

[Eric Provost]

Hmm...

I don't see random reloading being a good thing.  I can't imagine any result of the rolls keeping the players happy.

The core of the system mechanic is a dice pool using 10-siders.  One rolls a number of dice equal to the character's skill.  Skills can be considered to be 'specialized'.  When one rolls a specialized skill any 10s that show up are counted as two successes each.

So far, the mechanics are pretty much a ripoff of some of my favorite games.  If you looked closely you'd see elements of Shadowrun, White Wolf's Storyteller system, AEG's Legend of the Five Rings, and even a few stolen bits from Burning Wheel.

If anyone would care to look closer at the Frankenstein's monster of a game, then I'd be glad to email it to you (it's about ten pages right now in Microsoft Works).

[Andrew Norris]

I'd suggest going with something abstract, but it sounds like an "out of ammo" roll (which I like) wouldn't work for you.

One question that's worth asking is whether you really want to track individual bullets or not. I tend to play out combat rounds as 'exchanges', not single shots. (For instance, I'd be happy with a player describing their attack that round as "I peek over the sofa and fire off a few rounds, then get back down.") If you do that, you might be able to use the beads as an 'ammunition unit' representing several shots, which would prevent you from having to use quite so many beads.

If you wanted to make this sort of system more realistic, simply scale magazines down by some fixed number, so that larger weapons are still reloaded less often.

I admit that if someone wants to gain some benefit by choosing their shots carefully rather than firing like you'd see in a typical action movie, this might not work out the way you'd like. It's typically what I do, though, using Drama with a rough sense of Sim to tell a player it's time to reload if they haven't been tracking it themselves.

I suppose it all depends on what you want to simulate. My modern-day games tend to be pretty cinematic, so I'll handwave ducking behind a pillar to switch magazines. What I am more concerned about is when people start running out of magazines, because then it's time for the soundtrack to pick up as the combatants rush for that loaded pistol sitting in the middle of the room.

[Eric Provost]

Jack,

I like the reverse application of putting the beads into the bowls.  The idea of the full tube representing an empty clip is wonderful.  *ponderponder*  The only problem I forsee right now is coming up with different sizes of tube/bowls.

It is a turn-based combat system, and I'd considered the X-number of turns 'till the gun is empty.  However, I'm going with the idea that firearms have three different modes of operation.  Single shot, burst fire, and auto fire.  Now, I really am trying to attack this from a cinematic point of view, and not let myself get stuck in old ideas of how weapons should work in RPGs, I just happen to like the three different modes.  Therefore, if I'm going to go with a counting the rounds instead of bullets mode, then I need to account for these other two forms of fire which use more of the available resources.

Ron,

I like the idea on the surface, but when I get down to it, the mechanic you present has essentially the same flaws as the random roll for running out of ammo.  Unless I misunderstand what you're suggesting, then the frequency of jams, mishaps, and empty clips is dependant on either the character's skill or an independant roll.  Hmm....  I'm inclined to say that I don't like it... but I'm struggling with defining exactly why I don't like it.  I'll ponder over this some more, and get back to you.

-Eric

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Eric,

Well, you're gonna have to decide:

a) Track it from in-to-out, in that the number of bullets going into the clip/gun in the first place is the number that can be reliably expected to come out - in which case you'll have to keep track as you go.

Or

b) Dramatize it from out-to-in, in that "running out of bullets" is a relatively unpredictable event which adds tension and adversity to a scene.

Either (b) gets sacrificed to achieve the "in-game causal purity" of (a), or (a) gets sacrificed to achieve the "emotional tension" of (b). But expecting to play (a) in hopes of achieving (b) is going to be fraught with a lot of wasted effort and a lot of mis-matches between the two.

And my call is that you can do (b) with at least a nodding acknowledgment to (a) without getting too hung up about the details - but only if you start and end with (b) as the heart of the system.

Best,
Ron

[Eric Provost]

Ron,

While I agree that some decision will have to be made between A and B, I'm not sure that I have to make it right now.  In fact, I think that making that decision before looking at different methods of tracking the ammo would be burning my bridges too early.

From everyone's wonderful input so far, this is what I've come up with.

Each firearm should have some rating which tells the player how likely it is to run out of ammo during the scene.  Either by presenting exaclty how many rounds the weapon may hold, or with a more abstract rating.

The determining factor for running short on ammo should not be solely random.

Now, Andrew's idea of abstract 'ammunition units' seems to have a lovely ring to it, and I'm sitting down at my desk right now in an effort to see if I can find a home for that idea in my game.  If I do, I'll let you all know when I do.  Untill then, I'll still be greatful for any futher inspiration you may have to offer.

-Eric

[Bankuei]

Hi Eric,

I'm a pretty tactile guy, and the idea of beads in a bowl really appeals to me.  Perhaps you can apply the mechanic in a HeroQuest/Action Point sort of fashion, where "bullets" are literally bullets, but also bids towards achieving whatever goal that may be.  

From watching enough John Woo movies, its easy to see even pistols can be unloaded pretty quickly(in that genre) with about the same effectiveness as submachineguns(buck-buck-buck, room is cleared, spray, room is cleared).

I wouldn't use the mechanic if you intend for players to be letting off shots one at a time though.  

Another, more "realistic" (not really) option would be to increase the damage or odds of hitting based on how many bullets are spent in an attack.  This way you can have the John Woo "3 clips into one enemy" effect, or the wild spray option, and it gives players a reason to empty those bowls.

Chris

[DevP]

Dan Bayn's "Wushu Guide to Gun-Fu" has some good words of advice: reloading your gun is not a liability, but an opportunity for still more stylish ways of dispoing of your foes. Of course, Wushu goes for more pure fight cinematography than you may be wanting.

There's also the Chow Yun Fat method of not bothering to reload, but simply drawing new guns. If your players promise to keep drawing new guns from trenchcoats/deadmooks/etc., and if this fits with your envisioned style, then it could work out.

Me personally, I'm worried about handling time of tracking ammo and rolling the die pools; also, who's rolling the die pools? That could matter.

I actually envision using stacks of poker chips, because you can never have too many poker chips, and they already come in three colors (in case you wanted to differentiate between, say, semiauto, burst and autofire). As I envision it, each players stacks their chips as they would keep magazines, on their side of the table; there is a big steel bowl in the middle of the table (or a steel plate, or something). The gimmick is that when they are firing in-game, they have to keep that token-stack (their clip) in their hand as they are using it, and basically flick off a token into the center, with appropriate subsequent "clang" sound following.

The problems then is that, especially if you're using a 30-count ammo clip, you're going to need both hands anyway - you're not going to be able to roll your dice so easily. I think that can be okay, but still.

[Matt Wilson]

John's house is up to here with poker chips, and we use them a lot in play for various things. Why not ammo?

You could consider using stacks of chips to represent ammo clips, discard from the top as you unload, and grab a new stack when you reload.

A stack of 15 for a beretta 9mm, a stack of 6 for a revolver, and maybe 3 stacks of 10 for a submachinegun.