Fated RPG -- research block. Help!

[Darcy Burgess]

The Game: Fated (working title)

The Premise: PCs have cheated death, and are now invulnerable, except to the specific mode of death that they cheated.

The Setting: Film Noir with a liberal dose of Eraserhead.  Think The Maltese Falcon crossed with Twin Peaks.

The (Typical) Hook: PCs work/are strongarmed into/unwittingly help a mysterious cabal whose motives usually seem to indicate working for the greater good.

Character Generation: primarily descriptive -- everyone's assumed to have the same "baseline".  Traits are picked out of your description and are "highlights" of your character that set them apart from the norm.  Examples: "tall" "persuasive" "ugly" "ex-cop"

Task Resolution: 2d6 (one white one black).  If white is higher than black, then a "good" result occurs.  The opposite if black is higher.  For every trait that a character has that may be applicable, add an appropriate die.

That's the bare-bones of the system.  I'm currently working on designing a "plot lines" system that I think should involve some sort of deck, likely based on Tarot (fits quite nicely with the theme of the game).

The basic idea is that players can see the elements of the plot line stretched out in front of them, and can cooperate to flesh out the story.

Here's the problem:  I know next to nothing about tarot cards, and am trying to work up a "Fated" tarot deck (as an example, one of the "fated" suits may be "dames", another may be "heaters").  Apparently, my Google Mojo has left me, and I can't find anything on the net that's vaguely useful (lots of price lists, though).

I'm really looking for a typical list of cards in a tarot deck, typical suits, etc.  Seems simple, but apparently isn't.

A little help?

Thanks

[Valamir]

Try:

http://www.villarevak.org/resource_a.html

[Peter Hollinghurst]

Ok, here you go:
Wands or Staves, Cups, Coins or Pentacles, Swords are typical suits, though some alternate names are used.
Numbers for these (the Minor Arcana) go from Ace through 10, then page, knight, queen and king.
Major Arcana are:
0-fool, 1-Magician, 2-High Priestess, 3-Empress, 4-Emperor, 5-Hierophant or High Priest, 6-Lovers, 7-Chariot, 8-Strength, 9-Hermit, 10 Wheel Of Fortune, 11-Justice, 12 Hanged Man, 13 Death, 14 Temperance, 15-Devil, 16-Tower, 17-Star, 18-Moon, 19-Sun, 20-Judgement, 21-World
However-there are many varient decks that use different names and orders, and a few with almost completely different cards.
The best way to get a quick lowdown on the cards and meanings etc is to actually buy a deck (radical I know). If you want to look online at a deck its quite hard as most sites dont put up full decks-but you can try this site:

http://www.tarotofprague.com/cards.html

as they have a full deck there.
Some other helpful links are:

http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/

http://www.tarothermit.com/

I would also suggest checking out your local bookshop or library.
Hope this is of some use to you!

[clehrich]

This is a VERY long post, because this question about Tarot seems to come up rather a lot, and I thought I'd just put this out there for everyone like you who wants to play with them in RPG's.  I'm not telling you how to do things, just presenting some of the more obvious range.

The first step, I think, is to go buy a pack of fairly ordinary Tarot cards.  The Rider-Waite Tarot is easiest to find, and tends these days to serve as a kind of baseline.  Included with the pack will be a little book of interpretations.  If you're interested in using Tarot for symbolic meaning purposes, you should I think sit down and practice doing readings until you can manipulate the cards pretty smoothly.  You might want to skip over the meanings of the so-called Minor Arcana, so that you can just focus on mastering the 22 Trumps.

You might also look at Stuart Kaplan's Encyclopedia of Tarot (expensive, so get it from a library first, unless you really care) which has lots of packs and if I recall correctly also some ways of reading the cards for divination.

Okay, so here goes.

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The Pack

A Tarot pack has 78 cards.  

4 suits (swords, wands/rods/staves, coins/pentacles, cups), with 14 cards from Ace through 10 plus 4 face cards: Page, Knight, Queen, King (names may vary slightly).

22 Trumps (atouts), sometimes called Major Arcana or the like.

Names vary a bit, but here are some standard ones:
0 Fool
1 Magician
2 High Priestess
3 Empress
4 Emperor
5 High Priest/Hierophant/Pope
6 Lovers
7 Chariot
8 Strength
9 Hermit
10 Wheel of Fortune
11 Justice
12 Hanged Man/Traitor
13 Death
14 Temperance
15 Devil
16 Tower/House of God
17 Star
18 Moon
19 Sun
20 Judgement/Last Trumpet
21 World

There's almost infinite disagreement about the meanings of these cards, and some disagreement about their proper order.  Unless your players know a lot about Tarot, you probably want to stick to Waite for the order and general meanings, then make alterations to that base.

----
Brief History of Tarot

In short form, the cards were invented in probably the 15th century, in Italy, and first come to light in the form of a deck designed for the Visconti-Sforza family.  They were probably used to play a trick-taking game (see below).  They spread, slowly, throughout Europe.  In the late 18th century they were very popular in the south of France, for example.

In the 1780s or very early 1790s, Antoine Court de Gebelin, a Protestant pastor and Royal Censor in France [!] attended a party in Paris.  Somebody brought out a pack of Tarot cards, which she (probably) had found in Provence or Languedoc, and she suggested that they play the trick-taking game.  Court de Gebelin was working on a huge multi-volume thing called Le monde primitif which argued, by means ranging from the critical-philological to the downright mad, that everything interesting really came from the Egyptians.  He picked up the pack, and "discovered" that it was "actually" a work of hieroglyphic wisdom invented in Egypt.  Court de Gebelin published his findings in volume 8 of his book, along with an essay by Le Comte de Mellet; the former essay described the allegorical meanings of the Trumps, and de Mellet's essay described how the cards might have been used for divination in ancient Egypt.

Over the course of the 19th century, for reasons that aren't entirely clear, the cards spread for cartomancy, and then in the mid-19th century Eliphas Levi (Alphonse Louis Constant) "discovered" that because there are 22 Trumps (including the Fool), they are actually equivalent to the 22 letters of the Hebrew alphabet, leading to all sorts of Kabbalistic speculation.  As a result of Levi's influence on the Occult Revival, the Tarot became a central instrument of divination and mystical analysis.

By the mid-twentieth century, most people in England and America associated Tarot with the occult, and few realized that the things were ever used for gaming purposes.  Viz. Stephen Wright's joke that he played poker with Tarot cards, got a full house and nine people died.

-----
Games with Tarot

The cards were originally used for a trick-taking game sort of like Bridge.  This is still played a lot in Europe, with big tournaments and everything.  Each play begins with a lead card, and each following player has to follow suit if he has it, Trump if he doesn't but has Trump, and can play anything if he has neither.  The Fool is often called the Excuse: it allows you not to follow suit, regardless of what you have in your hand.  You can lead Trump if you want to.  Once Trump has been played, further Trumps in that round must rise in value (that is, if the 15 is played, you can't play the 8 unless you have no Trumps higher than the 15).

The Trick is taken by the highest Trump (if any), and otherwise by the highest in-suit card.  The Fool never takes the Trick; if it is led, then the first card after it sets the suit.

In the deal, 18 cards go to each of the 4 players, plus six face-down in a kitty (chien or talon).  Then each player in turn can bid a contract, which determines whether the player is allowed to use the kitty and how much the contract will be worth to win or lose.  The highest bidder plays against everyone else; if you win the hand, you take the value of the hand from every other player, but if you lose, you pay it to every player (sort of like Mah Jongg).

Contracts, in short:
Petit (small): You can use the kitty.  Turn the kitty, and take any cards from it that you want; discard an equal number of cards from your hand.  You can't discard Trumps, Kings, or the Fool (excuse).
Gard (guard): You can use the kitty; worth more and outranks Petit.
Gard sans le chien (guard without the kitty): Nobody uses the kitty, which is discarded.
Guard contre le chien (guard against the kitty): Nobody uses the kitty, but the cards in it are counted against you.

To win the contract:
The value of the cards taken is compared against a threshold; if you beat the threshold, you win the contract, and get extra points for the amount you beat by.  If you don't beat the threshold, you lose the contract, and lose points for the amount you lost by.  The extra points in either direction are multiplied by the value of the contract (x1, 2, 4, 6 for Petit, Gard, etc.).

Depending on how many bouts you take (the 21, 1, and 0 of Trump) the threshold changes.

3 bouts: 36 points needed
2 bouts: 41 points needed
1 bout: 51 points needed
0 bouts: 56 points needed

Card value is:
King 4.5
Queen 3.5
Knight 2.5
Page 1.5
Other cards .5
21, 1, or 0 of Trump (called bouts or ends): 4.5 each
Plus 25 points for winning the game.

There are lots of little fillips about special bids, scoring, and so forth, of course.

Various other games have been and are played with Tarot cards, primarily in continental Europe.  If you're interested in using this game or other variants, check out this nifty website which gives rules for lots of versions, and complete rules for this one (as French Tarot).  You can even download a couple nice freeware games to play Tarot on your computer, but they usually aren't in English (Tarobot, which is wonderful, is in French).

There is some reason to think that a game very much like Baccarat was once played with Tarot cards, although it's not entirely clear how this worked.  In particular, it's not clear what the Trumps were worth.

-------
Divination

What Waite describes is now pretty standard, but there are lots and lots of versions.  A standard is the Celtic Cross, so-called, in which you lay out cards more or less like this:

One in the center, and one crossing it.  These commonly represent the Querent (the person asking the question) and either an essential aspect of the Querent or perhaps a major problem or opposition to the Querent; at any rate this "covering" card has some central meaning with respect to the Querent's question.

One above the center.  This "crowns," and indicates the ideal success, the intended goal, the best that can be achieved, etc.

One below the center.  This is "beneath," and shows the basis of the issue, the underlying foundation.

One to the left (usually).  This is "behind," and shows the immediate past of the question.

One to the right (usually).  This is "before," and shows the immediate future of the question, an obstacle, influence, or whatever that will come into play immediately.

Four cards in a row, usually from top to bottom (or bottom to top) on the right.  They represent a historical progression or a series of aspects.  Reading as aspects:
The Querent
The Querent's House, environment, position in life, etc.
The Querent's hopes and fears in the matter
The outcome, the final destination of all these events, the future.

Reading as historical progression, commonly:
The immediate right-now (cf. center 2 cards)
The very near future (cf. card to the right of center)
The next stage after that
The culmination or conclusion

Of course, there are lots ways of reading cards; this one is pretty common and will be at least loosely familiar to anyone you're likely to meet who's into Tarot cards at all.  Some will sneer, of course, that this is simplistic and whatnot, but there you go.

If you're into astrological stuff for your game, you can also deal out the center 6 cards as 7 cards, with the center two being Sun and Moon, then count around from top-right to top-left with the remaining five as Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn.

And so on.

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Brief Bibliography
Waite, Arthur Edward.  The Pictorial Key to the Tarot.  Lots of editions.  A standard reference.

Kaplan, Stuart.  The Encyclopedia of Tarot.  3 vols.  US Games Systems.  Useful for getting a huge spectrum of different cards.

Dummett, Michael.  Various works.  Useful for history of the cards, but he hates everyone who's ever used them for divination.

Crowley, Aleister.  The Book of Thoth.  Crowley's very idiosyncratic version of the cards and their meanings.  Very different from Waite, whom he hated with a passion.

Other useful texts have been written by Papus (Gerard Encausse), Oswald Wirth, and so on.

US Games Systems publishes about eight million different decks, the vast majority of them different artistic (or not-so-artistic) re-renderings of the card images in Waite.

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Hope this helps not only you but anyone else looking for basic Tarot information.

Chris Lehrich

[orbsmatt]

Sorry that this post doesn't help, but I just had to say that I really like the idea that you have for your setting.  I'm interested to see the progression.

[Darcy Burgess]

First off, to Valamir, Peter, & Chris.  A big thank-you up front for the help on the research front.  Most appreciated.

Currently, I'm suspicious that my "Fated" deck will attempt to achieve a Tarot-esque feel without completely mimicking any actual tarot deck.  That's why numerical composition, etc. are important.  The fated deck needs to feel like a fortune-telling device, rather than copy an existing one.

Orbsmatt -- matters are progressing nicely, so keep your eyes open for some new material sometime soon (hopefully, a playtest draft is not too far away).

The deck will take some time to hammer out -- not only because there are a lot of cards to come up with, but the mechanic that utilizes them must be one that helps mould stories and spark ideas, not one that generates Agatha Christie-esque potboilers.

And I need to work in some sort of reward mechanic as well.  (I'm currently thinking of "reward dice" at the end of a storyline -- an obvious and tempting goal for any player.

Regards,

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Darcy,

My apologies if you've mentioned this already, but I very much recommend checking out the Fortune Deck from the game Everway. It's a very long stride in the direction that you're speaking of, and might provide a good foundation or a good "not that way" insight for your goals.

Best,
Ron

[Scourge108]

Tarot fans I know, in their efforts to explain it to me, have convinced me that it is an extremely complicated art form.  It is very difficult to "get it right" without a serious study of the Tarot.  Of course, that may all you need for a game mechanic, but there are bound to be a lot of pissed-off Tarot fans out there if you get one minor detail wrong.  I think coming up with an original Fate deck of your own design would be more rewarding in the long run, but that's just my opinion.

[clehrich]

Tarot fans I know, in their efforts to explain it to me, have convinced me that it is an extremely complicated art form.  It is very difficult to "get it right" without a serious study of the Tarot.  Of course, that may all you need for a game mechanic, but there are bound to be a lot of pissed-off Tarot fans out there if you get one minor detail wrong.  I think coming up with an original Fate deck of your own design would be more rewarding in the long run, but that's just my opinion.

I'm afraid I don't agree.  It just depends on what kinds of assertions you make.  If you say that you are presenting Tarot "as it is," you are in deep doo-doo.  If you say that you are "using concepts from Tarot," I think anyone who has a fit because you used Waite's deck instead of Crowley's wasn't worth it as your audience anyway.  Besides, can't such people just swap over to the "real deck"?  Unless it's really fantastically important that all the imagery and numbers be exactly as you say they are, you just mention right at the start that the game could be shifted to use a different deck without a lot of trouble, and you're home and dry.

Chris Lehrich

[Darcy Burgess]

Ron -- I'm very intrigued by the Everway deck.  Unfortunately, my budget doesn't allow me to go out and purchase research materials.  Unless Mr. Tweet were to publish a cardlist any time soon, I'll have to remain ignorant...which is unfortunate.

Chris & Scourge -- The "fated" deck is meant to be tarot-esque.  Not an existing Tarot deck.  I just figured that a good way to help incorporate the feel of Tarot would be to use it as a jumping-off point for the fated deck.

However, it may also be beneficial to design the game in such a way that someone who owned a Tarot deck could use one.

Regards,

[Bifi]

Brief History of Tarot
...
Over the course of the 19th century, for reasons that aren't entirely clear, the cards spread for cartomancy, and then in the mid-19th century Eliphas Levi (Alphonse Louis Constant) "discovered" that because there are 22 Trumps (including the Fool), they are actually equivalent to the 22 letters of the Hebrew alphabet, leading to all sorts of Kabbalistic speculation.

Actually, the Quabbalistic Tree of Life (a graphic tool to perceiving hidden truths in Judaic mystic tradition), consists of 10 Sefirot (sort of states of being) and 22 links between them. These 22 roads are the aspects of Major Arcana in Tarot (and correspond to Hebrew letters). As far as I know, Quabbalah was first and Tarot was a visualisation of this system.

[contracycle]

clerhrich wrote:

Over the course of the 19th century, for reasons that aren't entirely clear, the cards spread for cartomancy,

My money's on victorian parlour games and ladies 'at homes'.  My grandmother allegedly read tea leaves and had several books on 'parlour magic' (of the stage magic/amateur science variety).  Alongside these amateur entertainments go those paper-and-card theatre sets, playing the piano, dressing up and whatnot.