Constructing a CCG Co-op?

[daMoose_Neo]

As I've discussed several times in the past with many people, card games, collectable or customizable, are expensive to produce, especially with the glut of games entering the market every year, most of which are based on some new anime or another. Even with the massive marketing support and product recognition, most of these titles fail. 18 new games debuted this year at the GAMA Trade Show alone, not to mention what other rare indie developments that could crop up.
I also mentioned that one of the reasons things are so difficult for a new CCG idea to hit the market is that there is no indie scene for it like there is for RPGs. Sure, many folks have a notebook with their dream game (I have a dozen or so myself), but it never really sees much beyond some index cards or paper slips.

Point of Post: I may have something to help combat this.
I mentioned a game design over in the Conventions forum regarding a freebie I'm wanting to hand out at GenCon, sets of my entry to the MECH A RPG contest, Soul of Fury, utilizing my "Duelist System".
Even after my own considerations, I have a friend whos also an aspiring game designer who's adapted one of his ideas to the system while losing very little of the original title, which got me to thinking- why not work out an arrangement for whomever wants to, to buy in to the game system, contribute their own "game" and have it actually see the light of day?

Basic fact is indie developers cannot typically afford the print runs required to make a CCG a viable product. 1,000 units is a $7k drop on product alone, not to mention artwork, advertising and the like.

One way to combat this is by having standardized components. In the case of my proposal, the rulebooklet and packaging would be nearly universal, meaning bulk orders could be placed and individual developers could make use of items for their own title at the lower rates.

Standard rules also make it easier for a game to gain acceptance, as we've seen with d20- on the whole, a new title from an unknown will fare better in the consumers eyes than an indie system out of left field. This means as the new games prosper, someone who picked up "CyberDudes - the game of 31st Century 'Net dueling" can just as easily pick up "The Viking Drinking Game" or some such.

Breakdown on Soul of Fury comes to such:
- Artwork - Free, as its a part of the competition. This would be one of the only things provided by the would-be developers anyhow.
- Rules - $.05 per. 4.25 x 11 document, folded with game logo facing out
- Packaging - $.03 ($.017 per heading card, $.013 per plastic slip)
- Cards - $.166 for 6 cards B&W, or $.50 for 6 4/4

Grand total cost per pack of Soul of Fury: $.246, or roughly a quarter. An MSRP of $1.00 gives a $.15 profit per pack through distribution. $2.00 per pack for the color sets offsets the expense.
Right now, *my* biggest expense is the header card for the package. Thats $136 for 8k. Full color, UV gloss, quite nice, same header card I use for my Final Twilight expansion packs.

Basic system for the game is as follows:
Each player begins the game with 6 cards: 1 Duelist, 5 Supply Cards.
All cards begin on the playing space face down, the Duelist in front of each player with the 5 supply cards face down and off to the side.
Game begins with a random decision as to who goes first, and both players flip their Duelist over at the same time.
First player flips one of his or her Supply cards. They can either use the card as prescribed by exerting (using for the turn) any number of other Supply Cards or they can exert as many Supply Cards as directed by their Duelist and use an 'attack' listed on the Duelist card. Damage is subtracted from the opponent  and then the turn switches over with the opposing player following the same.
Next turn begins, all exerted cards refresh and become usable again. Player flips their second Supply Card and so it repeats until one player has 0 HP.

Its pretty much a dueling game, combat and such, but nearly all CCGs are merely a pocket wargame, as Magic is. The system is, however, very adaptable for any genre or property. Already, I have packs pulled together for a MECH variation, the aforementioned Soul of Fury, Final Twilight, a monster battling game entitled Genetisys, and my friend's title "Element". While all games follow the same, above, structure, there is still a lot of room for the flavor of the game to affect how the game plays out. Element is all about min/maxing your chosen element against your opponents while the MECH game requires you to develop a beefy bot pretty quick like. SoF has a number of combat stratagies, including the human's more hit & run approach and attacking weakly from several angles as opposed to a head on assault.
For the game, with the right approach, any existing system could be dropped into the rules and operate quite nicely, the cards determining more what happens than anything else.

As for the production, I'm still working it all out, but I'm thinking a POD style approach might work. Designers would create their own rules for inclusion with the basics, as well as supply card images and logos etc. And we'd deal with all of the printing, packing and getting it into distribution. Via this, we can simply take out costs as product is sold as opposed to having several folks sinking thousands of dollars into production for naught.
I was wondering, what kind of interest might there be in such an endevour?

[Doug Ruff]

Hi Nate,

Before we got distracted by the Supers game, we were going to chat more about distribution logistics etc in this thread.

It hink that one thing that the Supers discussion has taught me, is that it's very unlikely that different designers aare going to agree to the same basic ruleset. So what we are talking about here is essentially a printing and distribution model for CCGs. Which is still cool, but some of those economies of scale may be less than originally envisaged.

If I give a couple of examples, could you run me through how the costs are likely to break down?

1) Let's say I want to design a single player pack using similar rules to Duelist system. So that's 6 cards, the slip case, a 4.25 by 11 rules document with my own rules on it and presumably a heading card of my own design as well. How much does this cost for a run of 1000 6-card packs unlaminated? 1000 6-card packs laminated? This questions is really to check what economies are lost through including your own designs.

2) As discussed in the other thread, "factory runs" may be a valid way of pushing out base sets and expansions. So how would the prices come out for, say 500 36-card box sets? What if the sets were 60-card? And laminated?

3) A change of tack. If we're already in 36-card or 60-card set territory for the factory runs, then we're also potentially in a postion to print standalone card games which don't use the Duelist rules at all. Is there any practical cost difference between printing 500 Duelist factory sets, and (say) 500 non-collectable card games, with the same card count but with different rules?

In addition to all of this, how does the distribution side work? This sounds like a lot of work on your part, and if other designers are going to make rules changes, then you may not be getting as good a deal with the distribution (less cross-branding).

Apologies if these are dumb questions, but I'm new to this kind of thinking, and it may also help more people to see the costs and benefits of going down the co-op route.

Regards,

Doug

[Veritas Games]

I moved this text to this thread because it talks more about the co-op:

And please, please please, understand this:Supers is NOT open for co-oping, it is a set of our (Myself and my partners) design. No one will co-op this unless they really really wanted to and we agreed with the suggestion.  Think of the co-op offer as more d20- d20 has NO setting to it what so ever, save the magic system. Otherwise, its wildwest, heroes, fantasy, sci-fi, and theres even a modern SRD.

So what you offering is the notion that there's one card that interacts with 5?  That's hardly the same as an SRD.

What's the advantage of co-oping?

Generally co-ops offer some cost savings advantage to the entire group of individuals.  If the only thing they have in common is that there are 6 cards per pack, that's not really enough to advertise a common system.  So that's one advantage that is lost to people in the co-op.

If each person has a different rulebook then there are no economies of scale there.

If each person has a different game, then they are going to want a different insert card to advertise the game.  No economies of scale from being in a co-op.

At this point, the primary economy of scale comes from the plastic bags for inserts.

What's in it for you?  What's in it for people joining a co-op?  Why shouldn't they just go it alone?

[daMoose_Neo]

1) Significant difference is going to be in the packaging, maybe not so much the rules. Duelist headers would be ordered around the vincinity of 16k+ to around a cent and a half per. 1000 headers would have to be seperate a seperate order of 2000 headers, come to around four cents per.
Rules inserts, as noted, are on the easier end to produce so I can safely say its a nickel, my rules or not.
SO,
color laminate: ~$1.10 per pack cost ($1100)
color, non laminate: ~$.60 per pack cost ($600)
B&W, laminate: ~$.60 per pack cost ($600)
B&W, non laminate ~$.26 per pack cost ($260)

Boxed sets:
packaging in plastic case (as short run box printing simply doesn't exist as far as I can find): ~$.36
label cards (front and back inserts) - ~$.16
Rules Inserts - $.05 or $.10, easier to include full sheets w/ these packs
Cards (36):
$1.00 - BW, Non laminate
$3.00 - BW, laminated
$3.00 - Color, non laminate
$6.00 - Color, laminated

So we're talking approx. $.62 cents + your color printing/laminate options.
500, we're looking at:
B&W, NL - $810
B&W, L - $1810
Color, NL - $1810
Color, L - $3310

Start talking 60 cards, and I get to get creative ^_^ You'd need 3 1/3 sheets printed per deck (sheets = 18 cards), which comes out 1667 sheets.
CPU on THAT ends up being: ($.58 packaging and rules + cards)
B&W, NL - ~$2.25
B&W, L - ~$5.58
Color, NL - ~$5.58
Color, L - ~$10.58

It would be a lot of work my end, and there would be an as-of-yet determined assembly charge for the orders obviously. I'm nice, but not quite that nice.
If we're talking $10 cost for a 60 card deck, distribution would kill the product. irregardless. This is definetly a case where a full game printer could do better CPU on 1000, but you're dropping 7k on the printing. Course, we're talking 5k here.

Depending on the actual order, it may be possible to print cheaper. If we're talking at least 1000 copies of one design, I can get those done for around 3 to 4 cents per as opposed to 8 to 18 cents per, full color + UV gloss coating.

Lee -
Suppose you're right~ I wanted discussion on the viability of such an endevour and to see if there were interest. Supers is something that extended out of a basic ruleset that we produced and I wanted to offer it. Other avenues are currently being explored, such as common backs to help reduce costs, just need to figure out a decent way to print the faces without that costing an arm and a leg.
Off the top of my head and very little research, a simple set up might include pre-printed backs with thermal printed faces~
As to why they should or shouldn't go it alone, its up to the individual designer. Without having things fully fleshed out at this point, and thats something I would much prefer we do is flesh them out, the advantages aren't as great as they possibly could be.
Hammering out a more complete system and SRD is one measure, universal backs are another, and some fair balance between original and pre-printed rules inserts is yet another~ Establishing more of a system can assist in that, which is where your recommendations from Supers can play a part, and then we have the capabilities of name recognition once designers and players learn of it, better advertising opprotunities, etc.

I'm always hunting for newer, cheaper, better printing processes than what I've found or used before, will continue to do so for even just our discussion here, and its paid off. Each set I produce, I'm doing it cheaper and cheaper, and managing it much more easily. I suppose one of the bigger advantages to someone going through such an endevour at least with myself is that: I never stop hunting, tweaking or adjusting for that lower price point.

[Veritas Games]

Nate, some parts of of this didn't make sense.

Duelist headers would be ordered around the vincinity of 16k+ to around a cent and a half per. 1000 headers would have to be seperate a seperate order of 2000 headers, come to around four cents per.

Like that whole paragraph above.

color laminate: ~$1.10 per pack cost ($1100)
color, non laminate: ~$.60 per pack cost ($600)
B&W, laminate: ~$.60 per pack cost ($600)
B&W, non laminate ~$.26 per pack cost ($260)

You are pricing at 1000 packs here.  Honestly, it's cheaper to do normal offset instead of POD if you are going to go that number.

Boxed sets:
packaging in plastic case (as short run box printing simply doesn't exist as far as I can find): ~$.36

As an FYI to you, you can get foil pouches with a tear off top (think ketchup packages), printed with 4 colors, for about $3,000 for about 30,000.  They come sealed at the tear-off end, you load 'em up, and heat seal the end.  No printing on them, and it's much cheaper (i.e., if you want to slap a label on the front).

label cards (front and back inserts) - ~$.16

Is this a POD rate?  Again, different distributors would probably want different inserts.  I suggest only a single insert, in the front, with a UPC code on it for the benefit of retailers.

It would be a lot of work my end, and there would be an as-of-yet determined assembly charge for the orders obviously.

Unless you are paying yourself minimum wage, that's going to add a fair bit per deck, probably at least fifty cents to a dollar per deck if you are verifying collation, inserting rules, assembling, etc.

If we're talking $10 cost for a 60 card deck, distribution would kill the product.

Which means immediately that people will order in quantities no larger than 100, because they'll only be able to move these at cons and via direct sales.

This is definetly a case where a full game printer could do better CPU on 1000, but you're dropping 7k on the printing. Course, we're talking 5k here.

I've heard of better prices than that overseas printing a few thousand decks and getting them on actual playing card stock.  China has the best print prices.

At this point, Nate, you really aren't talking about a co-op so much as setting yourself up as a finishing service and a print buyer.  That's sort of a co-op.  I would think of a co-op as sharing a lot of common elements.

For example, if the games were very much similar, you could print a 10-15 page rulebook (to cover all the various options and levels of complexity) and have every game draw upon a subset of the same rules.  Now rulebooks can be printed up in 2.5" x 3.5" saddle-stitched condition.  If you offset several thousand inserts on micro-perforated, uncoated stock then you can color print 90% of the face of the card and then leave 10% for a distinct game title.  People could (on uncoated stock) use their inkjet or laser printers to fill in the product name and then tear apart the inserts.  Again, that's a cost savings on color ink if done at massive quantities.  You can co-op buy packaging one way or another -- plastic boxes is one way to go, the other is gripseal (a.k.a. Ziploc) bags that are about 2.5" x 3.5".

If the games are all subsets of a common, larger rulebook, THEN and ONLY THEN does it make sense to have common backs.  You might go out and find a POD printer (like Rapid POD) and see if they can print on coated stock.  If they can, then you find their sheet size and offset 1000s of sheets with common backs.

At this point, when you buy into the co-op, you get a common rulebook, packaging, unperforated insert sheets, and you buy a set of stock that you can use at home or use at RAPID POD for your cards.

That's a good co-op model.

Without a common-core of rules, the only thing you are offering are print buying and finishing/collating services.  And that's very different than a co-op, really, Nate.

You basically, in my opinion, have to have a fairly common core of rules to draw upon to really setup a co-op with common backs, rulebooks, etc.

BTW -- check out the notes in Actual Play.  I am guessing there was some miscommunication in my ideas.

[daMoose_Neo]

Woo! Now we're getting somewhere!

Clarifying myself:
Can get headers, 16k for around a cent and a half apiece.
Minimum I could find would be 2k, so ordering 1000 can't *really* be done.

As for the 1000 packs, really depends on the exact specifics of the job. If we're talking 1000, 6 cards to a pack, 36 facings, thats going to be a good chunk through normal printers Stateside.
Granted, overseas are a LOT cheaper, but it can be a huge hassle for a small publisher. For smaller groups, I have not heard one good thing about going overseas aside from the price.
On Twilight, and this is a specific company mind you so its not all that representative of the market there, I'm not too thrilled with their work. Extreme shade variances in the printing, a few so dark you can't read them to play them. Dice aren't the best quality in the end (and I got gyped on those- 9 cents per, could have gotten them myself for 4), and the packaging is fairly weak, heard from one player just last week who picked it up and loved the game, but bummed the box broke out on him.
The american printers I've dealt with do very nice work, and with a little bit of inginuety, you can print a set of 1000 decks for around $3600, full color, gloss. By the time I made it through customs and everything else, I had around $4500 into the card printing and recieving, not to mention a massive headache. So, going $3600 - $4k myself would have been much preferable.

Cool on the packets, might have to do a little bit of looking around into that. What I was talking about in the quote was BCW plastic card cases, sturdy and reusable ^_^

[Veritas Games]

Feel free to actually discuss the contents of this in the other threads, but as an FYI, I just loaded up a sample Duelist System rulebook to:

http://www.veritasgames.net/downloads/duelist_rules.pdf

replace "pdf" with "doc" if you want the MSWord version.

This rulebook uses a customized version of your cards (different than what you have in your layout).  The rulebook doesn't have quite the same flavor as one specifically tuned to supers, but it
allows you to build games that have:

A) Different names for resources;
B) Different number of kinds of resources
C) Different number of resources you can start in play with
D) Different number of total cards in your deck
E) Different number of Hit Points
F) Extensible way to let a character play different groups of cards, but not others, and to NOT have that tied to the character's name (this is really useful, say with a green fist icon, to assign 8 out of 20 characters the ability to play cards that are related to super-strength without having to constantly print redundant cards)
G) Multiple types of damage reduction

What's the same

A) One character per person
B) Many of the core rules
C) Maximum of 5 Supply/Resource cards on table per player

Discuss the rules stuff in the other thread.  I posted this here to show you an example of a co-op rulebook, a common card layout, and card terminology that can be used for lots of games so as to take advantage of a common rules set for many games, and which primarily let some of the options above plus the cards themselves flavor individual games.

Again, feel free to use or discard this stuff, but I think you need SOMETHING like this to have a true gaming co-op.  You need something more consistent between games other than, "you have a guy and 5 cards", because you not only can't realistically license that, but the skills aren't transferable from game to game and the games aren't otherwise really suitable for co-op building.

Without something like this, there simply is NO CO-OP.  None.  You are just acting as a print buyer and finishing service.

I don't know if this set of rules will cover your friend's game, because I haven't seen it.

The rulebook plus some text on the characters can fix this.  For instance, by leveraging the proposed card designs and saying on a character "this character can reveal any number of cards simultaneously" you can make a game where all cards can effectively start face-up.

Similarly, in the very same game, you can have different characters start with different numbers of resource cards in the game.  For as simple as the rules are they are flexible and robust.

They need to be married with the right cards or your game will be a bust.

If the rules are useless to you after legitimate playtest, clue me in and I'll discontinue assisting you with them.

Discuss the pros and cons of individual rules elsewhere, but discuss the general concept (a rulebook generally applicable to many games) here, as I think it is at the heart of the question, "what are you intending to co-op and why?"

If you are just trying to co-op to defray some of your bulk purchases then you need to have high quality games with replay value, tactics, and a large bulk of similar rules found in a common rulebook.

[Veritas Games]

I'm not too thrilled with their work. Extreme shade variances in the printing, a few so dark you can't read them to play them.

Print masters of india?

Did you get a sample copy?

Did you sign a contract with them?

Did you have right of refusal for bad printing?

They have a U.S. Office right?  Did you work with them?

Also find an intermediary in the states to hold responsible so you don't have to deal with international law on contract disputes.

Dice aren't the best quality in the end (and I got gyped on those- 9 cents per, could have gotten them myself for 4), and the packaging is fairly weak, heard from one player just last week who picked it up and loved the game, but bummed the box broke out on him.

Get your dice from Koplow unless you have a remarkably better place.  They produce Grade A dice.

Re: packaging -- unless you have a specially reinforced box, if you use standard like, say, 18 point C1S stock and then you put dice in it, then there's nothing solid bracing the inside of the package in one side, and the box can get crushed, etc.  I haven't bought FT yet to see how it was packaged and whether the die was stored in a reinforced tube.  Honestly, most people can supply their own dice if they have to.

The american printers I've dealt with do very nice work, and with a little bit of inginuety, you can print a set of 1000 decks for around $3600, full color, gloss.

Is that on true playing card stock?  Generally, I've found that only fully-fledged game printers carry true playing card stock.  Almost everyone in the industry in the U.S. has a minimum print run of 3000+ decks.

I only found one game printer that would even print a 1000 units of anything -- Delano.  They bid out about $4500 for 1000 one hundred card decks.  If your deck size is smaller then maybe it'll be cheaper.  That's just decks in shrink wrap -- no boxes, no rules, no nothing.  With the display materials it was EXTREMELY expensive to do business in the U.S.  I think Delano was going to charge like $10K for 1000 decks in packaging.  Again, maybe smaller decks are much cheaper.

Cool on the packets, might have to do a little bit of looking around into that.

I think IMPAK quoted me they are at

http://www.sorbentsystems.com

There are minipouches, tamper evident ziplock, standard ziplock, and a few others that are noteworthy.  You can get nice 4 color printing on the foil it seems.  Even if you just get the foil ziplock, they aren't that expensive and you get an opaque foil pouch.  If you don't need tamper evident ones (i.e., if you aren't selling through distributors) then the are easier to deal with.

I'm ordering some samples of clear plastic ziplock bags with display "hang holes", I'll tell you how the various grades of those look, if you are interested, Nate.

What I was talking about in the quote was BCW plastic card cases, sturdy and reusable ^_^

You can get those cheaper than 36 cents if you buy in bulk of 100+ units.

[daMoose_Neo]

The BCW set I quoted was a 50 card case, 2 to a pack, for like 72 cents for the pack. Tried in the past to see if I could reach them and see about any other quantity or resellers discounts but no ones ever responded. Little bit more shopping though, I can find what I need to ^_^

As per the case and the die, its not that the boxes get crushed or any other such thing- it holds the contents quite well and the die are light enough in that instance to hold it all. The gluing, however, on nearly all of the boxes is fairly weak.

Per the questions:
1) My bad not requesting samples right from them, though they did include games such as Chez Geek as print references. The proof decks they sent me looked great, color was dead on and clear. What mystified me was the box is supposed to be a pair of shades of blue, but came off the press more of a gold.
2) SIGN anything, no. All of our corrispondences were through e-mail, nothing was ever mentioned about a contract. Being my first time dealing with a printer of any kind for a project like this I went with the flow. I had done a ton of research, just a few things hadn't occured to me or popped up in that research as something to ask about.
3) Reviewing the paperwork and discussions with my contact, I did have the option, but problem was enough of my initial stock that I reviewed was fine. A poor deck cropped up once a case, not that big of a deal, I can understand print variances. Couple of the last cases however, fading or heavy ink was more pronounced and by that time it was past the return dates. Major plus is I hand-collate all the decks that go out, so I manage to catch anything wrong before it gets in to the hands of players.
4) SUPPOSED to have a US Office, but my contact that I was dealing with was right over in India. Looking around and hearing from others, twould seem their US office isn't much to speak of, just someone who says "Yes, I"m the US Office"

At this point, for me, theres no need to pursue it. Hand-collating the packs, I already knew there was a certain amount of extra cards that I would be using as handouts anyway, so in the end *I* lucked out. I got what I need and I still have a lot of promo material. Others, however...

Re: Koplow - Thats actually the place I looked to get my dice ^_^ Printmasters included them, so I had little say untill I got the proofs and at the time they seemed just fine. Another case of "as I checked more of the decks..."
This fall/winter's releases won't include a die, just the rules.

As for the stock, not on 'true playing card stock', but to be honest *we* don't need true playing card stock. The true playing card stock (to briefly run it down for everyone) consists of three layers- your face and back printable layers, which are glossed or coated after printing via a spary application typically, and center, dark (black or blue) opaque layer to prevent any kind of transparancy.
The thing about CCGs is:
A) They don't have the same, easily identifyable marks as playing cards do. And with 300+ options in a given game, its going to be quite difficult to identify anything anywho.
B) Playing cards typically have a simple, two color back to them, rarely do they get more complex. CCGs, on the other hand, usually have a multi-color/4 color back that would make it impossible to see through even if you could.
C) I've actually grown to prefer a UV coated card stock as opposed to that  playing card stock. Impresses more folks about the 'quality' of the cards, sturdier, though they can crease easier if you're bending it (only drawback I've noticed). With a good cutter available, you can usually print small quantities of cards on postcard stock for less than going through someone like Delano.

$4500 for the decks eh? Thats actually not *too* shabby. When I was dealing with Delano I got that quote for 1000 decks, $7k. Thats with rules, packaging and dice. Personally, I'd wager it'd be more expensive for smaller decks. Could "cheat", get decks of 120 cards printed up, snicker. If everything is to scale, thats about $5400 for 2000 decks. In *my* case, for Twilight, for two decks, that works out about *about* the same cost for 2000 decks of cards.
Delano is the "best" state-side, but the prices hurt us smaller guys.

As to the suggested rules- coming off the printer now, will go over them!

[Veritas Games]

What mystified me was the box is supposed to be a pair of shades of blue, but came off the press more of a gold.

Warning, warning, Danger Will Robinson!

Some of that can come from using RGB colors and having them printed as CMYK.

I always suggest doing a quick stop at Kinko's and having them color laser print something to see what happens if you layout something in RGB.

That said, a major color shift should be a warning.

wrong before it gets in to the hands of players.
4) SUPPOSED to have a US Office, but my contact that I was dealing with was right over in India. Looking around and hearing from others, twould seem their US office isn't much to speak of, just someone who says "Yes, I"m the US Office"

Doesn't matter.  Do all the dealings with the U.S. Office, so that, in court, you can deal strictly on the basis of U.S. law if you are lucky.

As for the stock, not on 'true playing card stock', but ...
The thing about CCGs is

Carl Schulte of Companion games agrees with you.  He feels that a simple C2S stock with close to 100% ink coverage on the back does the trick, particularly since people play with sleeves.

True playing card stock has other advantages though --

A) It has better "memory".  It's more likely to spring back to shape after being deformed;

B) It's less likely to chip;

C) It's generally got a slightly better spring for shuffling

I personally think a 14 point C2S is probably find for games with limited Shuffling like Supers, Nate.


--

As for number of cards per deck, let me give you a hint.  ALWAYS ask people what the maximum number of cards they can fit on a press sheet are.  Make your card counts that number, half that number, or double that number.  It'll keep your wasted stock down, and may save money on collation.

Delano is the "best" state-side, but the prices hurt us smaller guys.

Actually, they are one of the most expensive state side producers.  There primary advantage was the willingness to do under 3000 units.

As to the suggested rules- coming off the printer now, will go over them!

Since I haven't seen DJ's game, I don't know if they'll work for you.  Even if you trash them, you should try to come up with a rulebook that is, at the very least, a superset of your game and DJ's game, and the rulebook should contain options for extensibility that neither of you use.  That'll set you on the road to a real co-op.

Re: co-oping the Duelists' System, Nate ---

I'll note this in another thread, I _STRONGLY_ recommend you call this system something other than "Duelist System".

You use a tapping type mechanic for resource usage, you have a customizable card game, etc.  I think Richard Garfield called his original system (of which Magic was originally intended to be one example of) the "Duelists System".  That was 12 years ago last time I saw that, so I don't know if it's still being used in any of their literature, and I may be misremembering it.

Magic has had a magazine called "The Duelist" and has a player's organization called "The Duelists Convocation".  You might be subject to being slapped with a trademark infringement lawsuit if you call your game "The Duelist System".

Maybe call it "Man-to-Man" or "One-on-One" or something.

[daMoose_Neo]

Yup, all good things I know now that I didn't know then.
Part of the drive here, and working on that document on how I produced Twilight, is to keep other folks from running into the same pitfalls. There is quite literally NOTHING out there, and as a 19 year old college student with more determination to see something through than brains to see a way around it, I hit a number of pitfalls. Printer, Customs, Dice, all of these are wonderful stops on the railroad. At the very least, I managed to get some *stunning* original art if I do say so myself ^_^

As to the stock, yup. Thats really a publisher call. As noted, it does crease easier, can't say I've seen it chip however, but~

Delano is, at least among the game companies that I've spoken with, the best here. Expensive to be true, but the "best". What exactly that means to them, not entirely sure, but I know of several companies that deal with some inhouse printing but default to Delano on larger orders. A few other companies state side will print, but also require large minimums.
Yaquinto is one that WotC uses, or at least used, for smaller runs for tournies and pre-release orders while the main bulk was printing in China.

[Mike Holmes]

I think you have some interesting ideas here, Nate.

While at Origins I was talking with some individuals who said that, amongst other things, they were thinking of doing POD CCGs. They seemed to be in infancy on this, but the idea is intruiging enough that I thought I'd post their site here for reference.

http://www.avalonteam.com/

Their flyer says that they already do book POD (set up fees waived if you're a Key20Direct customer - they're in cahoots), and they said that they'd already gotten a die cutter somewhere to cut any cards they printed. I think they were still looking for coating to finish up the requirements.

Mike

[daMoose_Neo]

Coolies! ^_^

They have any estimates on costs? I know the coating is Ken's hangup, most coatings are spray-applicants, which is additional hardware and equipment. Ken uses a laminate, which I'm a little unsure of, especially considering Ken knows of it peeling.

[Mike Holmes]

I think it's probably early for estimates, but contact them to find out. I think that this might all be speculative until they work the coating thing out.

I mention it really because I think it might make sense to start thinking about CCGs in terms of this sort of service being available, given that I think somebody will have it soon.

Mike

[Polaris]

Nate,

I apologize if these questions are simplistic, but I am trying to understand precisely what your idea is, so please bear with me:

1.  Under the co-op, would we all contribute money to help with the design of a universal system (like d20 is for RPGs) that we can then all use for our own CCG games?  If so, then I am certainly interested in learning more.

2.  Is a CCG rule set already designed that is going to be opened up for us to use to freely add our settings to?  If so, then well, obviously I am interested.

3.  Is this a printing a fulfillment service whereby we would all pitch in money to have our respective games published (which we would still have to develop and market our own ruleset for), but by using economies of scale (which printing has... the bigger the run, the lower the marginal cost) we all save money on printing?

I have more money to invest than I have experience.  A number of game designers have contacted me in the past about CCG/TCG ideas they have, but I would be more interested in having a system that is more universal that can be used for a variety of genres (like d20 is for RPGs).  Our customers would only have to learn one basic ruleset, and can play in a variety of genres.  If this was done with a number of companies, than effectively each of our games promotes the others' games.  For those that would be interested, we could also pool some marketing money together to promote the system (advertising co-op for the system and our respective games), and do cross-promotion between our games.

I am very interested in learning more.

Sincerely,
William Andersen
ComStar
http://www.comstar-games.com
http://www.comstar-media.com