Look at my shoehorn. Ain't it pretty?

[Rustin]

Ok, get your cringe face ready.  It's been a few months since I bought DitV and I have only managed to play it once.  None of my regular group seemed very interested in it.  I've been itching to play again, but I can tell, it's not going to happen without a lot of bribery and groveling....and I'm just not up to that.  (It may not be the system itself that has so many turned off... it's that I'm in Utah.. and the thought of playing basically mormons is just...well... not something that generates much excitement in a group of people who live in Utah..if you know what I mean.)

So I'm going to attempt the unthinkable....

Yes, I'm seriously considering sneaking the "dogs" way into a d20 game.

Here are my ideas.  I would really enjoy any input. 

I tell my group I'm going to run a one or two shot Thief's Guild adventure. 
Each player is an expert thief, a thief of such renown and ability that the guild (a guild that has bases in many cities) has selected them to be the enforcers-- the special ops of the guild so to speak.  If the guild learns of a Gem in a Mansion in City X could be burgled, they send in the Specialist Thieves.  If a Thief boss in City Z goes missing or is murdered, they send in the guild specialists to solve the mystery. .. if another guild is causing problems then bring in the big guns... etc... this is the fluff, the d20 carrot dangling about to get the party excited.

Here's the Dog's rub.  The group of expert thieves are also the resolver of intra Guild issues.  Sure, the guild has a set of laws, a code of the criminal organization-- but when things are going bad, and the Thief enforcers are in town, they do what it takes to bring the peace.   Their choice on how to resolve problems is final, even if it violates the Code of the Guild--- their only instruction is to do what is best for the guild.  They are above the Code, because they must enforce the Code....

My thoughts is the Law of the Guild has a Racial Caste structure (much like Dogs has a caste structure based on sex), with a sprinkle of Americanized organized Crime code.  Humans are allowed certain level of responsibility, half-orcs can only go so far, and have special duties, etc...  You shouldn't steal from fellow guild members, One should treat fellow guild members with respect, follow superior's orders without question, not to squeal, don't sleep with fellow guild member's wives.  Sleep with guildmember's daughters or sisters with only with the permission of the guildmember..

The guild will suffer (demons attack is replaced by the Law attacks, or bad Luck etc..) when the Guild members don't follow the rules set down by the Big bosses.

When it comes to combat I'll go with normal d20 gamist approach.

Skill checks, however, I want to shoehorn into the dog's mechanic.  And here is where I'm a bit worried...

I don't want to overwhelm the group with lots of trait dice.  The narrative resolution system should be a bit quicker, not quite the focus-- but enough to give it that narrativist feel.

So, here's what I've come up with.

Instead of a d20 + ability level, the players roll 2d10 and then treat their ability level as a single roll. 

For example.  Say Rolando has a +9 Diplomacy skill.   
He would roll 2d10 and then place a ten sider with a 9.

I would give each player 1d10, 1d8, 2d6, 2d4 worth of personality traits.  They can add to the roll. 

If it is simple opposed checks then its just normal raise, see etc...

If it is vs. a DC value, I'm thinking the DC would need to be bumped a bit and then roll 2d10 for the first twenty, then make whatever is left over a set number.   So if pick the locked door had a DC of 22 it would be a 2d10 roll and then one die set to +2.  This seems sort of weak so either I could go a 3d8 roll and then another at +2 ...  I really haven't figured it out yet.

I haven't even thought of how to do the fall out list yet either.

My main question is, with such smaller dice pools is it going to break the system?  Should I make the 2d10 roll a 3d8 roll? 

I'm not sure how to handle escalation, maybe let them bring in their Physical trait bonuses as d6's (str +3 = 3d6) and ranks in intimidate etc.. would convert...and then the fallout takes a different course.

I can see the players easily winning their conflicts unless I threw in more dice on DC checks-- I'm not sure how I could do that in a fair predictable way...

My requests:

If you have any cool ideas on what the criminal code should be let me know.

For those who have many games under your belt let me know if I'm just totally out in left field with this dice idea... Now that I have typed it out, I'm sort of discouraged that it won't work.

Thanks

[TonyLB]

Will your groups culture let you "Say yes" as opposed to "roll the dice"?  I've been out of that particular circle of gaming for what feels like forever, but I do remember that people enjoyed using their rules systems (because the rules systems gave them what they wanted).

Honestly, I think the "Say yes or roll the dice" thing is the biggest change people are going to encounter.  It's a much bigger change than the particular die mechanics.  Imagine, for instance:

PC#1:  "Okay, let's double-team him to get the information out if him.  I'll use my intimidation +9.  Bad cop, obviously."
PC#2:  "And I'll use my Diplomacy +12, to be a really, really good good cop."
GM:  "Well, here's the thing:  he doesn't want to hide the truth from you.  Here's what he tells you, and I certify it as the truth.  You can stop digging here.  You've got the facts."

Would PC#1 and PC#2 be satisfied with that exchange?  Or would the feel that it was meta-gaming to be told when they had all the facts?  Would they feel that they'd "wasted" points on buying non-combat skills, if you then let them succeed at things most of the time?

[Vaxalon]

In Dungeons and Dragons, there's a very similar mechanic to "Say yes or roll dice"

"Roll the dice; then read them or fudge them."

[Vaxalon]

Sorry, posted a little to early.

Fudging is a mechanic most DnD players will be familiar with.  When it comes time to "say yes" then you say, "Look, this is where I would ordinarily fudge the dice, so what do you say we dispense with the facade and just get right to the point?"

[Jason Morningstar]

If it's the Mormon/Utah thing that's a turn-off, why not serve up one of the many alternate settings proposed in this forum using standard DitV mechanics?  There's a sticky full of them.  With what you are proposing, I'd be concerned that your players would actually like the changes in play style, and then you'd be stuck with something that doesn't really play to the strengths of either parent game. 

It seems to me you are being a little dishonest with your players, too - why not discuss what you all want from the game and identify where and why D20 is unsatisfying to you?  There may be a better rules-set for the kind of experiences you want to have that everyone can agree on. 

[Vaxalon]

Jason, I think you're misunderestimating the resistance some players have to anything that isn't labeled Dungeons and Dragons.  They're perfectly willing to have their game houseruled and drifted far from its original moorings, but to suggest playing "a different game" is anathema.

Remember...

...It's been a few months since I bought DitV and I have only managed to play it once. None of my regular group seemed very interested in it. I've been itching to play again, but I can tell, it's not going to happen without a lot of bribery and groveling....and I'm just not up to that.

And while you're right, a change of mileu MIGHT be just what's needed to get them to play the game, that's not the sense that I get from Rustin's post.

[Rustin]

TonyLB-

I'm really interested to see what the "say yes" and, "you've got the facts stop digging" is going to do for this group of gamers.  You may be correct about the feeling that they Wasted points. 

Vax-

As d20 GM I rarely fudged dice.  I rolled them out in the open.  I fudged once by limiting an enemy to 6 arrows and I have never heard the end of it...  "six arrows" is still code for fudging in our group now.

Usually, I just kill them.  I almost always under power the adversary and then just try to use really crafty strategic combat tactics.  So fudging isn't necessary.  It will be a romp unless I strategize smart, and if I can kill them with strategy I don't feel the need to fudge and save them. 

Jason-

I think it's the "fear of anything different from d20 or gamist systems" phenomenon more than anything, but having to play a Mormon just really doesn't get them excited.  I am going to try and build up the Gangster/Thieves guild alternative though.

You have hit the nail on the head with the dishonesty thing.   I am being a bit sly about it.  I'm just going to tell them that I hate the d20 skill check system (because really, it is silly) and we're going to try my tweak (which is basically the dogs see, raise and if it is really important you can push the conflict and take fallout, system).   I won't be saying anything about their roles as dogs, I will present them with problems, no mystery and then sit back and see what a bunch of gamists do.  I will include a big combat or something to give them their d20 fix-- something nice at the end to wrap it all up, so I don't think they will feel totally ripped off.

I'm hoping they will discover they enjoyed the political/regulation/narrativism more than the combat... or maybe just a well rounded adventure, a bit of narrativism and a bit of gamism, and no wasted down time.

So, any opinions on my shoehorn the Dogs mechanic into the d20 system? Will there be enough dice for the conflicts to run smoothly?  Should I replace the d20 with a 4d6? 3d8?

Like I said, I only played dogs once and I'm not familiar with the mechanic.
Any ideas on what would make for a good Thieves Guild Code?
Any ideas on what would make for good fall out in a d20 system?

Thanks

[Jason Morningstar]

So, any opinions on my shoehorn the Dogs mechanic into the d20 system? Will there be enough dice for the conflicts to run smoothly?  Should I replace the d20 with a 4d6? 3d8?

Like I said, I only played dogs once and I'm not familiar with the mechanic.
Any ideas on what would make for a good Thieves Guild Code?
Any ideas on what would make for good fall out in a d20 system?

I don't know d20 from a hole in my head, but I think adding a twenty-sided die to the mix is a mistake - the gently incrementing pip-sizes from D4 to D12 are your friends here.  More, smaller dice will make for more interesting choices.

If you are giving them "personality traits", fallout can impact those, or add new ones.  Maybe doing the same thing with "stuff" would be too wacky for your group.  I'll be very interested to hear how it goes - since fallout in Dogs is a good thing, it may throw your players who are prepped for the consequences of Stepping On Up. 

--Jason

[Danny_K]

I don't know enough about D20 to say anything helpful, but your variant setting iidea is very cool.

[fmac]

I don't think d20 and DitV are apt to fuse smoothly. I'm afraid you might get a really unholy mess from trying. Not that it couldn't work out, but I think it'd take a fair amount of development and playtesting before it'd be worth springing on your players.

Have you tried using d20, unmodified, with a DitV town generation type scenario, and as much of the DitV GMing advice as you can make relevant? Leaving the system alone, but put the players in situations where they, as authorities, have to make tough decisions between conflicting interests and loyalties and sympathies? I think that might be a better way to start sneaking Dogs into their died. See if they enjoy that play style. If they can adapt to playstyle changes like encouraging OOC discussion and "say yes or roll the dice," then you can see if they'd be interested in using the Dogs system in the fantasy setting you've set up - no Utah and Mormons involved, but the mechanical good stuff, anyway.

[Neal]

I agree with fmac.  I'm having a very hard time imagining how any part of DitV, taken as a system, would fuse well with any part of d20, again taken as a system. 

Here's my primary problem: d20 is, in part, an effort to return the old wargaming ethic to RPGs, while DitV leaves much (and sometimes all) of the tactical play to arbitrary or ad hoc decisions.  F'rinstance, in a d20 game, players have to calculate "lines of effect," movement distances, attack and move actions, and all that, and it's timed rather strictly.  In DitV, you have none of this.  If someone clobbers me with a hoe handle, my response to his action might come three days later and still be part of the same conflict.  And if I'm a player, I can invent scenery and props as I go along (so long as I don't get too goofy about it).

Likewise, suppose one of your specialist thieves comes upon a trap.  How did he know it was there?  Do you run with d20's system or DitV's?  In other words, do you say "There's a trap on the door, but you don't know it yet; if you fail to spot and disarm it, you'll be badly injured"?  Or do you just have the player roll a d20 and compare it to a check number?  These things matter, and they should probably all be handled in more-or-less the same way, so the players have a sense of consistency across systems.  DitV is consistently Raise-and-See, while d20 is pretty consistently Roll-and-Target.

Then, too, how far into DitV are you going to go?  Will you adopt DitV's experience system?  Will you discard ablative hit points in favor of Fallout?  You've said you only want DitV's system for the skill checks, but what happens when a skill check becomes part of a larger combat?  You've got two immiscible systems at play at once -- a trainwreck waiting to happen.

I think the difficulties you face really do come down to the systems you're working with.  Outside of system?  No problem.  You could quite readily adapt a Dogs-type story to d20, even swiping the Town Creation rules, and you could easily play DitV in another setting, including high-fantasy, but I don't think you can fuse DitV systems with d20 systems.  I fear you'd be spending much of your game time making on-the-spot decisions about immiscible rules elements you hadn't foreseen.  "Wait, all magical weapons are just excellent weapons?  You mean my +4 Swiftrazor gets the same dice as John's rinky-dink little +1 Mr. Stabby?  Well, that blows!"

Good luck, though, whichever way you choose to go.

[Rustin]

Ok, this was a fun project, though I don't think I'll ever use the mechanics section, unless it is a really critical diplomacy check.

Characters belong to a criminal network simply known as The Guild.

The Guild King rules over all divisions of the The Guild.  (Bridal Falls)
The Guild Master rules over all operations within a single city.  (Stewart)

Each city could have many different projects, which are administrated by Governors: Governor of the Gold (bribery, gambling, lending, etc..)
Governor of the Thieves (pick pockets, con-artistry, burglary, robbery, etc..)
Governor of Violence (intimidation, territorial defense, assassination etc...)

The Guild King sets the Code of the Guild.  When the code is not followed, the guild suffers. The local law gets stronger. (Demons Attack)

The Code

Follow the orders of your superior, unquestioningly.
Never steal from fellow Guild members.
Treat fellow Guild members with respect.
Treat Guild Members with respect in accordance to their rank.
Do not snitch on the Guild.
Do not sleep with other Guild member's wives.
Relationships with guild member's daughters or sisters must be by permission.
Do not try jobs beyond your skill-- if an opportunity presents itself, report it to your Governor so it can be done right.
Portions of all profits go to the Governor of the Gold.
One must earn promotion -- no special favors for friends and family.

Usually the Code works, but when it breaks down the Guild King sends in his Enforcers. 
PC play Enforcers. (Dogs) Their job is to make the Guild healthy again, by any means.  They must enforce the Code, yet they are above the Code.

Enforcers are also sent to cities where their thief expertise is required.

If you want to shoe horn the Mechanics of Dogs. (not playtested at all....) Here are some of my Ideas.  Although it has been tried a different way here, which may be better.

Generally limit such "stakes" conflicts to Diplomacy, Bluff and Sense Motive roles.

In addition to the regular d20 build, each character gets 1d10, 1d8, 2d6, 1d4 in "personality" attributions.

Skill level converts to a d6 die pool.  If one has a +5 Diplomacy then they get 5d6.
Everyone gets 2d10 in the opening role.  Any  "+" bonus converts to d6.  Any "-" modifier converts a d6 to a d4.

ie-  Jake has a diplomacy of +7 which makes it a 7d6 but because he is frightened ( a -2 penalty) that makes it a 5d6, 2d4 roll. 

If going against a set DC, the first 20 is 3d8, any number over is a d6.

So, DC 27 would be 3d8 + 7d6

Fallout, for verbal is d6's.  Add top Two

12: Take a 1d4 trait for the remainder of the Adventure
11-9: Your personality and confidence is shaken, -2 to all rolls involving the ability used in the conflict for remainder of Adventure.
8-6:  Your personality and confidence is shaken, -1 to all rolls involving the ability used in the conflict for the remainder of the Adventure.
6 or Below: Take a 1d4 trait for your next conflict.

If you roll two ones you've learned something from the encounter take a new 1d6 personality trait.

Escalation

The stakes are the same. Switch over to Normal d20 combat mechanics.  However, when hp =0 or less it does not mean automatic death-- only that the victor gets to resolve the stakes. 

The victor must roll fallout dice d10s, the amount depends on how much of their hit points were lost.

50% less 2d10
51-70 % 3d10
71-90 % 4d10
91-95% 5d10
96+% 6d10

Loser must roll 7d10 and any verbal fallout.

If top three dice are 10's = death
Otherwise add top two dice

20: Death is imminent, needs healing check to stabilize.
19-17:  The conflict took something out of you, Subtract d-size of existing trait
16-14:  Add 1d to an existing d4 trait
13-10: Permanent 1d4 trait
9-6:  Shaken for the remainder of the adventure. (-2)
5 or below: 1d4 trait for remainder of adventure

If you roll two ones you've learned something from the conflict take a 1d8 trait.