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This would just be clutter in Ron's thread.

The way I think of pervy: high Exploration of System would be kinky.  A pervy gamer would a. only like kinky games or b. like every kinky game, just cuz it's kinky.  A pervy game would be one that appeals mostly to pervs.

I'm not putting this out as a competitor to Ron's scheme.

Ron, if you'd like to cut my second post from your thread and stick it here, I'd be more than comfortable.

-Vincent

Hi Vincent,

The software doesn't allow me to merge posts into threads, so I guess we can just let people refer back to the other one.

I can't understand your post, though, unless you define Kinky very clearly and without reference to Pervy.

Best,
Ron

Vincent,

I was thinking the exact same thing -- that the word "kinky" should be substituted for "pervy" in Ron's initial post on the topic.  I also think it fits better as a contrasting word to "vanilla" in the underlying sexual reference, i.e., vanilla sex vs. kinky sex.

Julie

For what it's worth, I don't find either pervy or kinky to be particularly helpful as terms. They both (pervy more so) seem to carry a bit of derogation of the associated noun. Knowing that this is not intended, I'm thinking, "Ah, this apparently is some entirely new use of the word 'safe' of which I was previously unaware." That doesn't bother me, particularly; I'm accustomed to the idea (years of law school) that a word may well have a specific meaning which is not normal or common usage. I do think that perhaps we might seek a term that is more descriptive.

In a sense, I've got the same sort of problem with vanilla--to me, it means an intensely delicate flavoring. I know that most people associate "vanilla" with "plain", but I do not; and I'm not certain whether vanilla is supposed to mean simple, or plain, or delicate, or something else entirely.

I'm sure I'll get it as the discussion unfolds; but perhaps if the clarity of selected terms is challenged up front, consideration will be give to whether there are better terms for the concepts. Maybe there aren't; maybe anything that might be used for what is meant would be more easily confused with some other aspect of games (obviously, simple versus complex may in one sense be what's intended, but would quickly be confounded with rules-lite versus rules-heavy, which is both incorrect and undesirable).

I'm also a bit bothered by the fact that the metaphors implied by the terms are not oppositional. Delicate versus Sturdy (the latter in the sense of solid) might be something that gets closer to what I'm understanding so far; but again, that might be misunderstood in the sense of whether a system is breakable. So although the current suggested terminology doesn't seem balanced, I don't have better to suggest, just thoughts on what the terminology needs to elucidate.

--M. J. Young

I like "Vanilla" vs "Rocky Road" myself, in the ice cream sense, but its not very elegant :)

First let me say:

I'm the wrong tree you're barking up.

Let's please talk about high exploration of system, system's role in creating narrative, how high exploration of system is not the same as innovative mechanics, laying out the variables for making fun decisions, vanilla is innovative, and all the actual meaty things that Ron brought up.  (Let's talk about them in his thread, of course.)

---

So.

Sex.  There's vanilla sex, there's kinky sex.  Vanilla and kinky describe an act or instance of sex, like Ron's vanilla and pervy describe an act or instance of roleplaying.  Your garden-variety person likes a range of sex, from vanilla to kinky, depending on her or his mood at the moment.  Vanilla people only like vanilla sex.  (This is a second sense of the word vanilla.)  Pervy people only like kinky sex -- without a bit of their kink, sex is boring, or pointless, or empty, or whatever.

(Yes, everything I need to know about roleplaying I learned on rec.fun.bdsm.)

In El Dorado, from December 2001, Joshua Neff introduced the word (as far as the Forge's search function is concerned):

Quote from: Joshua NeffI'm a pervy narrativist (pervy in that it's pretty much the only kind of play I like) & I love adhering to the mechanics. I simply want mechanics that facilitate narrativist play.

So initially the kink was Narrativism.

I think that Paul Czege used pervy first in reference to a game system, in a one-sheet for The World, the Flesh, and the Devil from May.  Before that there weren't any pervy games, only pervy players.

And here in Narrativist GMs: How do you have fun? in June, Scott Knipe applies it to narrativism as a whole:

Quote from: Scott Knipewhat we're talking about here is pervy narrativism at best. Vanilla narrativism does not necessarily hold Author/Director stance as a priority of play, and in very, very mild doses (say, real subtle use of FitM), it will be largely indistinguishable from "traditional" styles of play.

And I think that's pretty much where Ron's coming from.  But I'm stuck back at a place where "pervy narrativism" means something like "pervy tickling," where tickling is already kinky, so pervy tickling must mean tickling that appeals especially or only to pervy ticklers, not to garden-variety people, and thus pervy narrativism must mean narrativism that appeals especially or only to pervy narrativists.  Hence my blahblah about freaky mechanics or whatever.

Gah.  

So what it boils down to is: "pervy" describes a person, "kinky" describes an act or instance.  Hence if Ron's talking about an act or instance of roleplaying, kinky is the word that fits.  

BUT THAT'S JUST IN MY OWN PRIVATE HEAD (and maybe Julie's too).  And, having done a bit of research, I think that Ron's usage is consistent with the Forge's, and mine's not.  Let's chalk this up to me reacting without adequate reflection or objectivity, and take on the actual substance of Ron's thread.

-Vincent

Just wanted to point out my dissatisfaction with the particular term choices (boy is Ron probably sick of hearing that. ) But being as they evolved from seperate discussions by different posters, perhaps a bit of unification would be in order.

Ok, Straight, because it's all about getting it on, and getting off, achieving orgasm. Kinky, because the Kink is about emphasizing the ritual, the details, the props, the process of getting around to getting off. Achieving your fix via ritualistic, fetishistic pantomimes of play, that's Kinky. With Vanilla & Exotic with a similar contrast. Vanilla is filling up, Exotic is worrying about the textures, tastes, smells that lead to being full.

This is just my particular batch of peevy nit-picks:) We now return you to Ron's actual thread

best