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In GNS Model Discussion

5/12/2004 Sean: Creative Agendas, Aesthetic Purism, and 'the' Social Mode
This thread is a follow-up to two previous threads I posted on the Social Mode: http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=9808 and http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=10493 . Thinking more about Simulationism, I realize that I was wrong to…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Sean, Eero Tuovinen, M. J. Young, Ron Edwards, Ian Charvill, Eric J-D, Doyce, cruciel, Erling Rognli, contracycle, Emily Care, clehrich, John Kim, Walt Freitag.

5/11/2004 Silmenume: What is the metagame goal of Sim?
Roleplay is about us, the players, making decisions. In Gamism its what Challenges are to be met and then addressed in what fashion. In Narrativism it’s what Premises are to…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Silmenume, Ian Charvill, Mike Holmes, Sean, Emily Care, Caldis, M. J. Young, Jonathan Walton, Jack Spencer Jr, contracycle, Ron Edwards.

5/6/2004 cruciel: Narrowing the Definition of Social Contract
This is a split from The Whole Model & Venn Diagrams. Hell, I'm just going to quote what I said in that thread. I see at least two distinct layers…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: cruciel, jeffd, Caldis, Ron Edwards, Blankshield, clehrich, Mike Holmes, Wormwood, Emily Care.

5/4/2004 cruciel: The Whole Model & Venn Diagrams
This is a split from Forget Immersion: Sympathy vs Empathy. There may not be too much to this topic, but... Maybe I just don't get the whole Venn diagram thing,…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: cruciel, Walt Freitag, Ron Edwards, Rob Carriere, Jack Aidley.

4/30/2004 redwalker: Nostalgia: breaking Traveller with hard sci-fi simulationism
All the Traveller grognards reading this will probably remember the black globe generator -- a force field of black energy which could absorb anything that the Traveller universe could throw…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: redwalker.

4/30/2004 timfire: The importance of creation in Sim
I have some muddled ideas that I've been thinking over, and I thought I would bring up for discussion. I've been thinking about the "it" of Sim. In the infamous…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: timfire, Ian Charvill, Walt Freitag, M. J. Young, Silmenume, Caldis, Ron Edwards, talysman, Noon.

4/30/2004 montag: Simulationism without Force?
Short version: Simulationism without Force: Is it possible? What does it look like? Long version I'm currently having a debate with a fellow player GM, about our extent of co-authorship…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: montag, Eero Tuovinen, Ron Edwards, GreatWolf, Andrew Norris, Ian Charvill, M. J. Young, John Kim.

4/28/2004 Michael S. Miller: Audience Thrills & Creator Thrills
In thinking about ways to explain Narrativism to folks unfamiliar with the Forge & Ron's essays, I've hit upon something which might be useful to others ... or it might…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Michael S. Miller, Ron Edwards, Noon, Mike Holmes.

4/26/2004 Eszed: CS Lewis and Why System Does Matter
So I'm reading some CS Lewis this morning, and run across this: There are different kinds of reward. there is the reward which has no natural connexion with the things…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Eszed, ejh, Shreyas Sampat, Garbanzo, John Kim, M. J. Young, Ron Edwards.

4/23/2004 cruciel: Successful Resolution and Narrativism
It's time for yet another half-baked Jason idea. Considering your traditional randomizer aided resolution system from a Nar perspective, success or failure of resolution should not be the concern. As…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: cruciel, Jaik, BPetroff93, Mike Holmes, Ron Edwards, trechriron, Bankuei, Noon, Alan, Jack Spencer Jr, Matt Wilson.

4/23/2004 cruciel: Removing the Incentive for Narrativism
This is a followup/companion thread to Removing the Incentive for Gamism This time I'd like to look a how one might fail to support to Nar. This one is much…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: cruciel, Caldis, sirogit, Bankuei, Jack Spencer Jr, clehrich, Noon, DannyK, Ben Lehman, contracycle, Alan.

4/22/2004 Bankuei: Lazy Reward System & the missing CA
Hi folks, I recently picked up BESM D20, and looked into the reward system. You have the industry standard rewards for "overcoming a challenge" and "good roleplaying", both of which…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Bankuei, Halzebier, M. J. Young, myripad, contracycle, Peter Nordstrand, rafial, Mike Holmes, DannyK, Lxndr, montag, John Kim, Jack Spencer Jr.

4/21/2004 Gaerik: A Plentiful Plethora of Panoramic Premise
Okay, so my title for this topic is a little ostentatious. Sorry. My questions for the Narrativist experts out there multitudinous but they all revolve around having multiple premises in…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Gaerik, BPetroff93, Ron Edwards, Eero Tuovinen, GreatWolf, pete_darby, Matt Wilson, M. J. Young.

4/20/2004 Cemendur: The GNS of Fishing
[quote="Gaerik"]It's like trying to discuss "sports" without defining what a sport is. Some people consider fishing and churling (I think that is how you spell that) to be sports but…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Cemendur, Gaerik, Blankshield, M. J. Young, Doyce, Ron Edwards.

4/20/2004 M. J. Young: Alignment and Premise in D&D
I feel silly doing this, but over in Ben Lehman's Gamism and Narrativism thread a side issue emerged regarding whether D&D had within it the possibility of addressing premise…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: M. J. Young, Ben Lehman, NN, contracycle, BPetroff93, Noon, myripad.

4/19/2004 Ben Lehman: Gamism and Narrativism
I have been thinking, recently, apropos to lumpley's Arranging the Pieces of the Game as to what really defines Narrativism and Gamism, at a base. I think that there…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Ben Lehman, Eero Tuovinen, Rob Carriere, greyorm, Doyce, Ron Edwards, beingfrank, M. J. Young, pete_darby, Valamir, contracycle, Walt Freitag, Emily Care, Ian Charvill, cruciel, DannyK.

4/19/2004 trechriron: Pitfalls of Nar Design (point 4)
Point 4 (summary): Sole reliance on deepening and detailing any aspects of exploration are misguided... I am confused on specifically what this is referring to. Is this addressing weather generators,…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: trechriron, Jack Spencer Jr, Ron Edwards, John Burdick.

4/16/2004 sirogit: Steps to addressing premise?
What do you do in your Narrativist games to encourage the addressing of a specific premise? I'm being abit critical of my own attempts to brainstorm premise-addressing techniques as to…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: sirogit, Ben Lehman, BPetroff93.

4/13/2004 cruciel: Missing Lobe Shift as Gamist Tell
Wow, that subject title doesn't make any sense, does it? (Everything contained herein subject to the disclaimer that I am not a neurologist, psychiatrist or anything else remotely knowledgeable in…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: cruciel, Eero Tuovinen, montag, beingfrank, Rob Carriere, John Kim, M. J. Young.

4/13/2004 cruciel: Conflict Resolution and Gamism
This is a lot of junk all strung together. Hopefully it'll make sense at the end. ***** Once upon a time I started to shift my play more towards conflict…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: cruciel, coxcomb, M. J. Young, ethan_greer, Ron Edwards.

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Subsequent Topics
In GNS Model Discussion

5/12/2004 Kevin A. Ranson: GNS definitions...
Hi, all! Being the most current newbie around these parts, can anyone direct me to a thread that specifically details the common (or accepted) definitions for Gamist, Narrativist, and Simulationist,…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Kevin A. Ranson, Sean, Christopher Kubasik, M. J. Young.

5/13/2004 Zak Arntson: Is one type of gamer in a group boring?
I'm splitting this from the RedRavenRPG.com: I'm scared to ask! thread. I wanted to address the question, but it's not specific to the Red Raven RPG, so I'll answer it…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Zak Arntson, Jack Spencer Jr, Andrew Martin, wakingjohn, Mike Holmes.

5/16/2004 Ian Charvill: Drama and Narrativism
Following various gubbins over on Sean's fourth mode thread and the glossary thread this could maybe do with the thread of its own. My position here can be summed up…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Ian Charvill, Jack Spencer Jr, Sean.

5/16/2004 Walt Freitag: The Big Model: Unchallenged?
In Perceptions of Civility at the Forge, Chris Lerich wrote: D. I would like to see certain blocks of theory relentlessly challenged. If they're good, they should withstand it and…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Walt Freitag, clehrich, cruciel, M. J. Young, Cadriel, DannyK, Ian Charvill, Ron Edwards, Sean, Mike Holmes, John Kim, Storn, Henri, C. Edwards, contracycle, talysman, Hunter Logan.

5/18/2004 Sean: Lookin' for Love...in all the wrong places?
Hey, quick CA question here. So you're sitting down to your D&D game and the new guy shows up. You're all ready to smite orcs and level up, and he…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Sean, Jack Spencer Jr, sirogit, Zak Arntson, Eero Tuovinen, pete_darby, iambenlehman, Noon, RaconteurX, Ron Edwards.

5/20/2004 Sean: Exploration, System, and the Lumpley Principle
In another thread, Silmenume wrote: "Exploration is the process whereby any and all information is added to the SIS – it does not require the address of Situation in its…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Sean, Ron Edwards, cruciel, Silmenume, iambenlehman, Erling Rognli.

5/20/2004 Henri: Force and Creative Agenda
The relationship between Force and Creative Agenda is something that has been bothering me for a while. It seems to me that force is anathema to ALL THREE creative agendas.…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Henri, bcook1971, M. J. Young, Ron Edwards, Valamir, sirogit.

5/20/2004 xiombarg: LARP and GNS: Narrativist techniques?
[size=9px](Note: Jargon ahead. And it's long. Continue at your own risk. Ewige blumenkraft.)[/size] Sometimes I feel like I'm the only LARPer on here. I know that's not true, so I'm…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: xiombarg, Andrew Morris, Blankshield, Matt, Ron Edwards, Merten, John Kim, iambenlehman, Erling Rognli, JamesSterrett, Eirik Fatland, Walt Freitag.

5/22/2004 iambenlehman: Subtyping Sim
Please forgive this introduction for being a little broad, and the analysis for being correspondingly narrow. I think that this can be extended into other creative agendae, I'm just starting…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: iambenlehman, lumpley, Eric J-D, Ron Edwards, Eero Tuovinen, Jack Spencer Jr, montag, M. J. Young, Emily Care.

5/22/2004 Silmenume: Senoria, Learning and Goals
I broke this off from a post on my earlier thread What is the metagame goal of Sim? It is a legitimate topic though way off from where I was…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Silmenume, montag, M. J. Young, Ron Edwards.

5/23/2004 Silmenume: Trying to define S, like G/N, by its relationsip to conflict
A look at what constitutes a Creative Agenda as defined. Looking at the models of Gamism and Narrativism we see they are described as processes. Gamism is described as the…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Silmenume, Eero Tuovinen, talysman, M. J. Young, Ron Edwards, Rob Carriere, tiago.rodrigues, Alan, Caldis, Balbinus, Mike Holmes.

5/24/2004 lumpley: A Non-RPG Example of Premise in Play
Check out Scott McCloud's current morning improv, Mimi's Last Coffee. Requires Flash. You've got a thematically charged setup and characters locked into it. You can see from reading the comic…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: lumpley, M. J. Young, Emily Care, Jack Spencer Jr, ethan_greer.

5/25/2004 coxcomb: "Save vs. X": Gamist?
So, my recent experience with d20 brought a number of things home to me about my personal play style. It also got me to wondering about the creative agendas of…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: coxcomb, Eero Tuovinen, Noon, Ron Edwards, Halzebier, iambenlehman, Sean, hanschristianandersen, M. J. Young.

5/26/2004 Eirik Fatland: inside : outside (LARP description)
The following is a description of the LARP inside : outside, posted as a separate topic to avoid cluttering the original thread with such a long, moderately on-topic, text. basics…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Eirik Fatland, xiombarg, Matt, JamesSterrett, Revontuli.

5/30/2004 Caldis: Universalis Sim or Nar?
Recently there's been a lot of talk of Universalis (or the Pool) as a sim facilitating game. With my understanding of GNS I really dont understand how that's possible so…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Caldis, Bob McNamee, hix, Sean, M. J. Young, Silmenume, pete_darby, Valamir, Ron Edwards, C. Edwards.

6/1/2004 pete_darby: Exploring theme without addressing premise
(split from here) The idea of exploring theme without adressing premise: well, I'm falling into a state that I deplore in others, of having proposed a theoretical statement without an…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: pete_darby, C. Edwards, Ron Edwards, Landon Darkwood, Valamir, M. J. Young, Jack Spencer Jr.

6/8/2004 Wormwood: Experimental Validation: GNS Congruence
This thread is to discuss the experiemental design of a GNS Congruence game. This stems from M.J. Young's post here. I've already designed a game which, in observing play, manages…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Wormwood, Mike Holmes, John Kim, Valamir, M. J. Young, Walt Freitag.

6/11/2004 Silmenume: I have a question
OK - so everyone must be getting tired about me going on and on about conflict/situation - but here we go again. Basically put, the way in which a Gamist…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Silmenume, Alan, Ron Edwards, MarktheAnimator, timfire, M. J. Young, Mark D. Eddy, Walt Freitag.

6/11/2004 MarktheAnimator: Sex in RPGs
Hello, Sex in RPGs is possible. Just don't let it take over the game. I think it all comes down to a significant part of storytelling. Love stories have always…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: MarktheAnimator.

6/11/2004 timfire: Why isn't Gam & Nar compatible?
Reading the "Experimental Validation: GNS Congruence" thread got me thinking about trying to make Gam & Nar work together, or more specifcally, why its so hard to get them to…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: timfire.

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