Index of reading lists

Reading list The Infamous Five
Compiled by Vincent Baker

11/12/2002 Ron Edwards: Mainstream: a revision
Hello, I'd like to address the issue of mainstream vs. alternative content in role-playing games. My views are essentially the same as those expressed by the proprietors of Page 45, a comics store in Nottingham, England. A few years ago, one of them sent an amazing letter to Dave Sim, author of the comic Cerebus, which was promptly published for…
In Publishing
Participants: Ron Edwards, Emily Care, Jonathan Walton, Le Joueur, PeterAdkison, MK Snyder, Tundra, xiombarg, jburneko, Seth L. Blumberg, Pramas, Jack Spencer Jr, Jon H, Paul Czege, James Holloway, mearls, talysman, Eric J., greyorm, joshua neff, Christopher Kubasik, C. Edwards, quozl, Walt Freitag, b_bankhead.

11/13/2002 Jon H: Production value (split from Mainstream)
[quote="Paul Czege"]Hey Jon, Fantastic post. Having never seen a pg45 style store, it's strange and exciting to see you write of the nuts and bolts from firsthand. Seeing description of the way the posters work, that kind of thing, somehow renders what seems idealistic into thrillingly viable technicolor. I'd love to see even more detail, perhaps a map of the…
In Publishing
Participants: Jon H, Ron Edwards.

11/15/2002 Ron Edwards: Actual play in the stores
Hello, This thread can be considered a partner to my Mainstream: a revision. Unlike that thread, though, here, I'm really talking about the game stores and what goes on in them. Big news flash: not all members of the “hobby game industry” get along all the time. Publishers (like me), retailers, and the interesting animal called the distributor tussle over…
In Actual Play
Participants: Ron Edwards, Christopher Kubasik, bluegargantua, jburneko, Valamir, jrients, b_bankhead, wyrdlyng, UnSub, Maurice Forrester, hyphz, xiombarg, ADGConscience, Jack Spencer Jr, James Holloway.

11/15/2002 greyorm: The Store
Over in Mainstream: a revision, Ron says specifically it isn't about the store. I'm in some disagreement about this...after reading everything being said about turning things around, attracting a greater number mainstream shoppers to the hobby via new, non-alternative material instead of what currently dominates, I have to wonder: if we start producing for these clients, how do we then…
In Publishing
Participants: greyorm, talysman, Ron Edwards, MJ Stahl, Pramas, Le Joueur, Matt Snyder, quozl, James Holloway, Mike Holmes, Valamir.

11/15/2002 Ron Edwards: Social Context
Hello, This is a companion thread to the Mainstream: a revision and Actual play in the game store threads. I might as well give the game away and reveal that I'm slowly presenting a total of five threads as a linked family of concepts, of which this is the third. With any luck, everyone is up to speed on what…
In RPG Theory
Participants: Ron Edwards, Jonathan Walton, Clinton R. Nixon, C. Edwards, Paul Czege, M. J. Young, wyrdlyng, talysman, Emily Care, Maurice Forrester, cruciel, greyorm, joshua neff, Matt Snyder, Tim C Koppang, Stuart DJ Purdie, Jack Spencer Jr, Mike Holmes, Steve Dustin, Gordon C. Landis.

11/15/2002 Jack Spencer Jr: active vs passive entertainment From Mainstream: A revision
This was in the Mainstream A revision thread, but as that thread is now closed, I've started a new thread. One thing that seems to be overlooked in this discussion which I think should not be is that RPGs are very different from comic books. That is, COmics are a fairly passive entertainment. You buy the book, you read the…
In Publishing
Participants: Jack Spencer Jr, talysman, Ron Edwards, Le Joueur, wyrdlyng.

11/15/2002 talysman: Promotion (split from Mainstream)
[quote="Ron Edwards"] John (Talysman), dude, please, all that belongs in [i]another thread[/i]. I'd rather not have to lock this one, but I don't think I've encountered this much resistance about very basic Forge practices in a long time. [/quote] sorry, Ron. I didn't intend to challenge Forge practices. when I said "it really is about the store" I did go…
In Publishing
Participants: talysman, quozl, Ron Edwards.

11/15/2002 quozl: What would make a non-roleplayer buy your game?
Here's the idea, a little exercise if you will: A non-roleplayer walks into a game store and next to the 37 versions of Monopoly sees a box with the title "My Game". The non-roleplayer picks it up and turns the box over to see what it's about. What would you put on the back of the box to get that…
In Publishing
Participants: quozl, Paul Czege, Mike Holmes, Ron Edwards, Le Joueur, Jonathan Walton, MK Snyder, talysman, GreatWolf, b_bankhead, Emily Care.

11/17/2002 Clinton R. Nixon: The game that would sell to non-roleplayers
Jon's post in What would make a non-roleplayer buy your game? got me thinking about what sort of mainstream game would sell well to non-gamers. However, it's a little off topic, so I started a new thread. While surrealism and fantasy can be in the mainstream, I tried to take examples from popular modern entertainment to figure out what non-gamers…
In Publishing
Participants: Clinton R. Nixon, talysman, J B Bell, Jonathan Walton, Ron Edwards, Valamir, quozl, Le Joueur, Bankuei, Mike Holmes.

11/19/2002 Ron Edwards: Vanilla and Pervy [thread #4 of the Five]
Hello, This thread re-examines the terms Vanilla and Pervy, which have been kind of loosely used at the Forge so far, much like "Illusionism" until recently. Here's where I'm laying out everything I think about these terms, with the hope that a lot of muck and assumptions can be cleared out, as well as the hope that others' insights can…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Ron Edwards, lumpley, Valamir, Matt Snyder, Alan, Walt Freitag, Mike Holmes, C. Edwards, talysman, Seth L. Blumberg, Mark D. Eddy, J B Bell, Steve Dustin, Stuart DJ Purdie, M. J. Young, GreatWolf.

11/19/2002 Ron Edwards: Gay culture / Gamer culture [Social Context]
Hello, I was wondering whether anyone wanted to discuss the parallels between closeted gay culture and gamer/role-player culture. I don't suppose those parallels are hard to perceive. Or is it a no-brainer, without need for clarification or development? Best, Ron
In RPG Theory
Participants: Ron Edwards, greyorm, Matt Snyder, Valamir, Jack Spencer Jr, Jake Norwood, Clinton R. Nixon, talysman, erithromycin, jrs, Anthony, Le Joueur, Mike Holmes, J B Bell, cruciel, M. J. Young, Clay, contracycle, b_bankhead, Manu.

11/19/2002 lumpley: Pervy in My Head
This would just be clutter in Ron's thread. The way I think of pervy: high Exploration of System would be kinky. A pervy gamer would a. only like kinky games or b. like every kinky game, just cuz it's kinky. A pervy game would be one that appeals mostly to pervs. I'm not putting this out as a competitor to…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: lumpley, Ron Edwards, jrs, M. J. Young, Bob McNamee, RobMuadib.

11/20/2002 mattcolville: The importance of play [split from Mainstream]
[quote="Jack Spencer Jr"]One thing that seems to be overlooked in this discussion which I think should not be is that RPGs are very different from comic books. That is, COmics are a fairly passive entertainment. You buy the book, you read the book, you put the book in an acid-free back with an acid-free backboard and put it in a…
In Publishing
Participants: mattcolville, Ron Edwards, Matt Wilson, jrients, James Holloway, Valamir, wyrdlyng, b_bankhead, Bankuei.

11/19/2002 Maurice Forrester: Mainstream media
[quote="Ron Edwards"] So now for the point: what alternate venues exist (in addition to the Good Stores) for people (anyone) to encounter the facts that (a) role-playing might be nifty in their already-existing terms, (b) its accoutrements (i.e. games themselves) might be found "here," and (c) it goes on "here." [/quote] The short answer: mainstream media. The long answer has…
In Actual Play
Participants: Maurice Forrester, Ron Edwards, GreatWolf, Valamir, Jack Spencer Jr.

11/21/2002 Seth L. Blumberg: Self-image (split from Gay / Gamer)
Perhaps Jake is failing to see how gamers feeling proud of themselves would cause 300-pound men to refrain from dressing up as Sailor Moon. Perhaps I am as well. (Do people really do that? I've always thought that was just a joke. Mind you, I've seen some wildly ill-advised costumes, but never that one.)
In RPG Theory
Participants: Seth L. Blumberg, Jake Norwood, Mike Holmes, James Holloway, M. J. Young, Ron Edwards, paulmjessup, Enoch, Eric J., Mark D. Eddy, Clinton R. Nixon, greyorm, Bankuei, damion, Irmo, contracycle, C. Edwards.

11/22/2002 Christopher Kubasik: Accessible? To Whom?
Hi Everyone, This is a thought spun off of Ron's Fourth of Five thread. To jump right to it: Some people are comfortable talking off the top of the their head, others aren't. One of the greatest boondogle grails in the RPG hobby was the publisher's attempt to "break out" to the mainstream audience while pleasing the existing market. Time…
In Publishing
Participants: Christopher Kubasik, Mike Holmes, Ron Edwards, Jack Spencer Jr.

11/22/2002 Mike Holmes: Combat systems [Pervy and Vanilla]
Something just occured to me. Combat systems are Pervy! Mike
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Mike Holmes, Mark D. Eddy, M. J. Young, Ron Edwards, JMendes.

11/24/2002 MK Snyder: Cannot stand cutesipoo terms like "vanilla" and &q
Just for the record. Applying them to *combat systems* is a pretty weird thing to do. The whole "mixing sex with violence" vocabulary does not sit well with me, not to mention that it isn't going to help all the gamers who are already embarassed about their hobby to use such sloppy (oops, sorry) terminology.
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: MK Snyder, Ron Edwards, Mike Holmes, J B Bell, Manu, Le Joueur, Emily Care, M. J. Young, Ian Charvill, xiombarg.

11/29/2002 Walt Freitag: What does role playing gaming accomplish?
"What does role playing gaming accomplish?" No, I'm not looking for an answer. I'm pointing out an aspect of role playing gaming that influences the public perception of the activity. In recent threads like this one we've been talking about how gamers (and their conduct, attitude, self-image, etc.) influence this perception. But I believe the deck is stacked against a…
In RPG Theory
Participants: Walt Freitag, simon_hibbs, cruciel, thoth, jrients, Mike Holmes, Ziriel, Jack Spencer Jr, Le Joueur, Paul Czege, JMendes, Price Check, RobMuadib, M. J. Young, damion, MK Snyder, joe_llama, contracycle, quozl, Emily Care.

11/29/2002 lumpley: Pervy Sim, Points of Contact, Accessibility: an example game
Hey. I used to play in this game with Sarah Kahn and them, and holy cow were they pervs. The philosophy: 1. No game mechanics can be as good a simulation as our collective opinions. 2. Nothing should interfere with our experience of our characters as independent people, outside of our conscious control. (Whether some of us believed that our…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: lumpley, Ron Edwards, Mike Holmes.

11/30/2002 cruciel: Christian Gamers and Self Esteem
All this question of gamer pride when revealing your hobby to non-gamers has brought up a lot of "it's all the fundies falt" comments, and I'm curious about something. So, to those gamers who happen to be christian: Do you feel any apprehension about telling gamers you don't know very well your religious orientation (because of fear of snap judgments)?…
In RPG Theory
Participants: cruciel, Clinton R. Nixon, M. J. Young, Victor Gijsbers, thoth, Ted E. Childers, Bankuei, Uncle Dark, Sidhain, Ron Edwards, Christopher Kubasik, Jonathan Walton, Clay, Kester Pelagius, contracycle, Paganini, Evan Waters, Irmo.

12/1/2002 MK Snyder: Re: What does role playing gaming accomplish?
[quote="M. J. Young"] It seems to me that in the 80's, the overwhelming majority of role players were guys. I know that every girl who played at my table was either the significant other or the sister of some guy who did, save for one game in which a couple of people wanted to see what the game was like…
In RPG Theory
Participants: MK Snyder, thoth, Clinton R. Nixon, Uncle Dark, talysman, cruciel, Ziriel, Ron Edwards, M. J. Young, contracycle, ethan_greer, A.Neill, jrs, lumpley, Matt Wilson, Clay, Gordon C. Landis, Jack Spencer Jr, damion, C. Edwards, Bankuei, Enoch, Walt Freitag, Valamir, quozl, Le Joueur, Irmo, Evan Waters, Emily Care.

12/2/2002 Ron Edwards: The Forge as a community (Thread #5 of 5)
Hello, This is thread #5 of the Infamous Five, a related set of threads that I've been instigating over the last few weeks. Each one has spawned a bevy of secondary threads as well, as intended. Here are the links to date: #1: PUBLISHING Mainstream: a revision Production value Promotion Active vs. passive entertainment The Store What would make a…
In Site Discussion
Participants: Ron Edwards, Matt Snyder, Matt Wilson, Ziriel, Mike Holmes, cruciel, Le Joueur, Rich Forest, Bankuei, Maurice Forrester, Steve Dustin, GreatWolf, Valamir, jrients, Blake Hutchins, Clay, Jonathan Walton, wraeththu, MK Snyder, A.Neill, Clinton R. Nixon, Irmo, Emily Care, Kester Pelagius.

12/4/2002 Clinton R. Nixon: The five percent
This is my companion thread to Ron's latest of the Big Five threads, The Forge as a community. It's inspired by recent events here at the Forge, Ron's thought that "personal-vision RPGs" are, basically, how good games get made, and Rich's discussion of a "discourse community" in that thread. (Aside: yeah, I know I'm oversimplifying Ron's view. That thought was…
In Site Discussion
Participants: Clinton R. Nixon, C. Edwards, Sidhain, Ron Edwards, b_bankhead, jrients, Irmo, xiombarg.

12/5/2002 Clinton R. Nixon: Off-the-cuff Forge cultural analysis
Moved by some of Irmo's discussion in Ron's "The Forge as a community" thread, I decided to look and see where the Forge is succeeding and failing in relation to the cultures that make it up. I looked at the first two pages of the memberlist, organized by the number of posts, which seemed to the most accurate method. Instantly,…
In Site Discussion
Participants: Clinton R. Nixon, Irmo, C. Edwards, Valamir, Kester Pelagius, Fabrice G., Paganini, Emily Care, Mike Holmes, GreatWolf, Clay, Le Joueur, Jared A. Sorensen, xiombarg, quozl, lumpley, wyrdlyng, wraeththu, hardcoremoose, Adam, talysman, Jake Norwood, Ziriel, Matt Snyder, Shreyas Sampat, Bankuei, Chris Passeno, greyorm, Matt, contracycle, MK Snyder, Tim Denee, Matt Wilson, Gordon C. Landis, cruciel, Jack Spencer Jr, J B Bell, Ted E. Childers, Bob McNamee, Seth L. Blumberg, Ron Edwards.

12/5/2002 Irmo: The Forge and cultural bias (split from 'Forge as community'
[quote="Mike Holmes"]Irmo, Sounds like standard deconstructionist talk. Next you'll be telling us that the Forge shouldn't use English, as that biases it's production in a way that makes it less useful for people who don't have English as their first language. [/quote] It may very well be that it sounds like that to you, but it has in fact not…
In Site Discussion
Participants: Irmo, Clinton R. Nixon, Andrew Martin, Mike Holmes, Bankuei, Jared A. Sorensen, Clay, xiombarg.

12/6/2002 Emily Care: Relationships at the Forge
Hello all, In Clinton's Cultural Analysis thread, Mike asked Who are you? I'd like to know: Who do you hang out with? :) Specifically, who on the Forge do you personally know and game/spend time with socially in real life? And also who of those you have met on the Forge have become your friends, collaborators or allies? What are…
In Site Discussion
Participants: Emily Care, Paganini, Le Joueur, Mike Holmes, GreatWolf, Matt Wilson, xiombarg, Clinton R. Nixon, Shreyas Sampat, wyrdlyng, Gordon C. Landis, Kester Pelagius, Jake Norwood, Ziriel, Seth L. Blumberg, lumpley, Paul Czege, greyorm, M. J. Young, Walt Freitag, John Wick, Jürgen Mayer, Merten.

2/13/2004 Ron Edwards: The Infamous Five
Hello, A while ago, I initiated a series of threads which came to be known as the Infamous Five. Each one spawned numerous daughter threads. Although each had a distinct topic addressed to its specific forum, their sequence was designed to constitute a larger argument as well. Those of us who participated in these threads enjoy a certain relationship and…
In Site Discussion
Participants: Ron Edwards, ethan_greer, Dumirik, Michael Johnson, Maeglin_Dubh.