Topic: Elves Comparative Study
Started by: thelopez
Started on: 3/10/2004
Board: RPG Theory
On 3/10/2004 at 4:04pm, thelopez wrote:
Elves Comparative Study
It would be interesting to do an average height, weight and age comparison for Elves from a variety of FRPGs or similar styled RPGs as Brian asked for in his Dwarfs, Dwarves and small people! topic.
So the races should be from,
D&D
Lord of the Rings
Warhammer
etc.
I agree with Ron Edwards post in that topic:
Ron Edwards wrote: Hiya,
Actually, it would be kind of neat to list out the Dwarf information of this type here in this thread, from a variety of games. Basic descriptive comparison - not a bad method for a theory thread to see whether interesting questions emerge.
I'm not next to my game library right now and my time is limited, so can some other people start off? Just name the game and list the information that was requested.
Best,
Ron
Forge Reference Links:
Topic 9875
On 3/10/2004 at 4:29pm, Ron Edwards wrote:
RE: Elves Comparative Study
Hi there,
One thing that made the dwarf comparison possible was its narrow focus: relative attribute values and life-history variables.
I strongly, strongly suggest that this thread also be focused:
1. Which "races" exactly? (not all three you mentioned)
2. Named as such or "obviously" the same? (many games have, e.g., goblins, but given new names)
3. What sort of games - limited or any/all? (tricky - Shadowrun has elves and dwarves, e.g.)
4. Most importantly, which variables? (appearance? behavior? game mechanics? please be very specific, bearing in mind that games present a wide range - not all games use hit points, e.g.)
So if you could provide that focus, then we can all get going.
Best,
Ron
On 3/10/2004 at 9:26pm, Mike Holmes wrote:
RE: Elves Comparative Study
I believe, Ron, that he only wants Elves, and only Height and Weight.
Mike
On 3/11/2004 at 4:56am, thelopez wrote:
RE: Elves Comparative Study
Middle Earth
Height 5' 6''
Weight 150lbs
Lifespan immortal unless killed or they give up immortality, Elrond was atleast 5000 years old.
On 3/11/2004 at 8:17am, Scourge108 wrote:
RE: Elves Comparative Study
This seems to vary greatly. In D&D and most similar games, Elves are shorter than humans by about 6 inches. In several other sources, such as Tunnels & Trolls and Shadowrun, Elves are actually taller than humans by about 6". But all are really skinny.
On 3/11/2004 at 9:43am, Ben Morgan wrote:
RE: Elves Comparative Study
One thing that seems to be pervasive in what Ron calls "D&D fantasy" is that Elves are not physically strong.
There is no basis in Tolkien's work for this generalization.
Keep in mind that back in their heyday (ie: the Silmarillion), Elves kicked an ungodly amount of ass. Fingolfin went toe-to-toe with Morgoth, and did some major damage before finally getting squashed.
Elves' lack of physical strength in D&D et al seems to be more of a balancing issue than anything else.
-- Ben
On 3/11/2004 at 5:57pm, Ron Edwards wrote:
RE: Elves Comparative Study
Hello,
For documentary purposes: David's (theLopez) original post was much, much more general, and he edited it following my post to its current specified state. The fact that this editing made my post look bizarre is the reason why people are not supposed to edit their posts' content on the Forge. Ever.
David and I discussed this and it's certainly not a big deal, especially for a newcomer. But that's the explanation.
Please continue with the thread as currently construed.
Best,
Ron
On 3/11/2004 at 7:34pm, Mike Holmes wrote:
Re: Elves Comparative Study
thelopez wrote: Middle Earth
Height 5' 6''
Weight 150lbs
Lifespan immortal unless killed or they give up immortality, Elrond was atleast 5000 years old.
OK, Dave, first, what Middle Earth are you talking about? If we're talking RPG portrayals here, then there are two main ones, ICE's MERP (Middle Earth Role Playing), or Decipher's new Lord of the Rings game. I really can't speak about the latter, but I can about the former. It tries to be true to the descriptions of elves in LOTR. "Taller, and more lordly than men" I believe is an oft quoted passage.
In any case, there are three types of Rolemaster elves, which ironically parallel the three types of elves from AD&D 1E (since RM is just a "fix" of D&D to begin with), which themeselves are based very loosely on Tolkien's divisions. So, RM has Grey Elves, High Elves, and Wood Elves. By the time you get back to MERP, they've converted them back to the original Tolkien types, however, and group them roughly in terms of stats as Sindar, Noldor, and Vanyar, or somesuch.
Anyhow, in all of these portrayals, the wood elves are about the same size as men in general, being somewhat "lesser" in some ways than other elves. The high elves are taller than men, however, starting at a minimum of six feet tall, and going up to seven feet or so for the lordliest sorts. They're all thin, of course, and weights seem to range from 150 to 230 lbs.
You'll note on the cover of "Treasures of Middle Earth" a compendium of ME magic items for MERP, that there's this barechested smith looking like a body builder on the cover. You'll note that the McBride painting has him holding up a ring - yes, this hulking brute is none other than Celebrimbor, the elf who, with Sauron forged the rings of Power. You may also note that he has no points on his ears. This is a point of some contention, but it would seem that there's no indication that Tolkien's elves originally had pointy ears. This is an artifact of D&D, apparently, hearkening back to older legends about elves.
The Middle Earth liscence was stripped from ICE in the mid 80's, IIRC, but they'd already gone to some lengths to create the "missing" portions of Arda (the continent that ME is on). As such, they had a lot of information that they'd generated that was still under their copywrite. So they took that stuff, and started building a world called the Loremaster world - what would later become Shadow World, Terry Amthors rather fully realized planet of Kulthea.
Uh, so it has elves, too, unsurprisingly, and they tend to the RM catagorizations. They're renamed for the setting, however, so you have:
Iylari - High elves further divided into two groups the Linaeri (blonde - nicer) and the Loari (black haired - not so nice).
Erlini - Wood elves
Dyari - an offshoot of the Loari with a bad attitude (AKA Dark Elves).
Shuluri - sea elves (can breathe air and water).
These follow the same pattern, with wood elves slightly taller than men, and the other's several inches taller.
Oh, one more note. Somehow D&D managed to steal the term "elves" and make it available for common use. Because it originates with Middle Earth. Actually, Tolkien admits that both "elves" and dwarves" are spelling errors that never got fixed. The terms are supposed to be elfs and dwarfs (you'll note that it's Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs, for instance). Tolkien says that he thought that they terms would be conjugated like leaf-leaves, and so made the error in all his writing. Again, the terms have stuck because D&D continued with that spelling.
Mike
On 3/11/2004 at 7:57pm, Tavish wrote:
RE: Elves Comparative Study
From the MUD world, I believe the design that most deviates from the D&D / Tolkien norm would be from Armaggedon. From outward appearances they follow the standard mold. 75" to 96" in height with a slim, light frame. They are not an "immortal" race (with a lifespan perhaps one and a half that of humans although the setting is extremely brutal and most characters meet a Viking's end) and the racial attitude is abit different,
Descended from (or currently a member of) any number of nomadic desert tribes, all elves have a cultural bent toward both wandering and theivery. Among elves, theft is not a crime, per se, but more of a test of courage. Highly distrustful of all persons who are not a member of their immediate tribe, elves will often go to great lengths to test the trust worthiness of any companion. Due to their nature as runners, all elves find riding mounts to be a shameful act (though they can usually forgive the use of mounts by other races).
With only a few exceptions, elves in other MUDs follow the previously mentioned physical outline and predisposition.
On 3/11/2004 at 10:11pm, Harrek wrote:
RE: Elves Comparative Study
My favorite version of elves is from Glorantha (naturally). That could throw your data all outta whack, though, 'cause they're kinda weird - so I'll ask: what do you mean by 'elf'?
It seems pretty simple on the surface, but is it? Look at a game like Talislanta, whose tagline is "no elves." They have a slew of creative races, but really, a lot of them are elves with the serial numbers filed off. So are they "really" elves, or aren't they?
Are elves: Tolkien's elves? Alfar from Germanic mythology? Anything and everything that could be called 'elf'?
Ron hinted at this in the previous thread, when he observed the relative homogeneity of fantasy dwarves.
Anyway, here's my submission - Elves from Glorantha (RuneQuest/Hero Wars/HeroQuest):
Gloranthan Elves are one variety of Aldryami - mobile, intelligent plants. They are man-shaped, and usually slightly smaller than a man. All Aldryami are associated with specific plants; the elves are tree Aldryami. They fall into three major groups: Green (Evergreens), Brown (Deciduous) and Yellow (Tropical).
I don't have my books handy, so numbers will have to wait. If you're interested I can dig some up for you. I'm not certain that lifespan data has ever been published, but I'd assume they correlate with their associated tree: so Douglas Fir Elves would live a very long time, frex.
Hope this is useful to you.
On 3/12/2004 at 3:33am, Harrek wrote:
RE: Elves Comparative Study
Alright, as requested by thelopez (in a PM), here's the data for Gloranthan elves:
Avg. Height: 160 cm
Avg. Weight: 55 kg
(That's for brown elves; green elves are slightly taller, yellow elves slightly shorter.)
Avg. Lifespan: varies based on associated tree. For brown elves, most live 250+ years. Yellow elves typically live 200 years, and green elves 300+ years. Some green elves may live to 1000 or more, if associated with very long-lived trees (like the previously mentioned Douglas Fir).
All info drawn from the Elder Races book in the Elder Secrets box set for RQ3.
On 3/12/2004 at 4:06am, Valamir wrote:
RE: Elves Comparative Study
Gatewar: Believable Fantasy Roleplaying
A fun little heartbreaker with more than its fair share of gems and heart break both.
Gatewar doesn't have elves or dwarves, it has Geffren and Bruff...which bear an uncanny resemblance to elves and dwarves. Of course Gatewar also has the Nequitar Warrior. A race whose sole reason for existance is to give a justification for Amazon hotties in chain mail bikinis...
The Geffren live to beyond 500 years, live in forests, use organic materials for building and armor are extremely thin, pale and have pointy ears.
In Gatewar Height and Weight are set by Size and Frame stats.
Geffren range from size 17 to 20 (6'4" to 7'4") averaging 18.5 (6'10") while humans range from 14 - 19 (5'4" to 7') averaging 16.5. (6'2") so generally on the tall side of human (of course, humans are on the tall side of human in this game...so there you go.)
In wieght the Geffren are on the lean side ranging from 171# to 227#. This doesn't seem particularly lean to me, but that's what it says.
The most interesting thing about the Geffren is that they slow down when they age. A young Geffren (100 yrs or less) talking to an older Geffren resembles Merry and Pippen talking to Tree Beard...which is kind of interesting.
On 3/12/2004 at 12:42pm, HMT wrote:
RE: Elves Comparative Study
Valamir wrote: ... This doesn't seem particularly lean to me, but that's what it says ...
Find a picture of Manute Bol on the web. Someone 7'7" that only weighs 220lbs is very thin.