In another thread, I mentioned that I was currently GMing a Sci Fi game (Alternity) which wasn't my preferred genre and that I was having a hard time getting invested into game. Fantasy is my preferred genre. One of the posters (Dev) mentioned making another thread to discuss the issue since it departed from the topic of the original.

Why do I have a hard time with Sci Fi and not with Fantasy? That's a hard question to answer. Off the top of my head, it could have something to do with my literary preferences. I love Fantasy. I read Tolkien (of course), Lewis, Jordan, Martin, Cheryth, Freidman, Salvatore, and a plethora of other fantasy authors. I read some Sci Fi but generally authors I know from the fanatasy side of the house. Given this, I have a lot more source material to pull from when playing fantasy. That increases my comfort level with the game and it also makes it easier for me to get invested in it.

I have played in some games (Robotech and Star Wars) that I have enjoyed. However, I've yet to be able to GM a Sci Fi game that wasn't somewhat of a chore for me. I find it easier to get into a game as a player, whatever the genre, than as a GM. Perhaps it is because as a player the scope of the game is smaller. I'm just concerned with my character's perspective and as a GM I have larger concerns.

I don't really know. Most of this is just rambling on with whatever comes to mind. In any event, does anyone have suggestions on how I might be able to learn to enjoy running Sci Fi games more? Anyone have the same type of issues as me? How many of you find you enjoy playing all different genres as opposed to those of use who really prefer only one?

I wrote this message before reading the Disgruntled Parents thread; if anyone hasn't read it, you might want to look at it first.

What is your feeling about Science Fantasy? Games such as Fading Suns offer some gamers a chance to delve into the tropes of science fiction with the spirit of fantasy. This is not a universally popular choice as purists of either stripe often are not accepting of robots in their dungeons or mages on the bridge of their starships.

Early D&D was pretty much a hybrid of this type; but you cannot believe the flak I got from a player in one campaign when the underground dungeon turned out to be a buried ancient spaceship. One of the main players was already playing a technologist/gadget fiend in an otherwise medieval setting. The other player seemed to have no problem with him having advanced technology, but I think that was just because they were dating. I tried to explain the background of how he might have this technological knowledge, and that opened a can of worms. By the time they battled their way out of the spaceship, the aggravated player was highly annoyed and made many negative comments even though the other players were quite happy with the session. We went back to playing D&D after that (we were using a free-form minimalist system for that campaign). I think that the technologist player was annoyed about that and really liked his character and the science fantasy campaign, but he was dating the annoyed player so compromises were made.

What do you like about fantasy and dislike about science fiction in your gaming? How about your players? It may or may not be possible to compromise depending how you answer those questions.

Later,
Mark

I've gone back and forth between the sci-fi genre and the fantasy genre. It basically depends what kind of mood I'm in. If I watch a cool action movie that involves stealth and infilitration, I'm usually in the mood for a good ol' sci-fi game. After watching Lord of the Rings, it's fantasy all the way.

Depending on how often you get together, you might consider switching back and forth and see which one your group likes best. Just don't switch too often, or momentum is lost.

Gaerik wrote: In any event, does anyone have suggestions on how I might be able to learn to enjoy running Sci Fi games more? Anyone have the same type of issues as me? How many of you find you enjoy playing all different genres as opposed to those of use who really prefer only one?

What about Jorune or Barsoom?

If Sci Fi is too much of a tought nut to crack, perhaps you could try some post-apocalyptic or Modern day stuff. How about Wild West (Deadlands) or Film Noir (Noir)? Perhaps some Mad Max-esque shinanigans in the form of OctaNe?

I'm exactly the same (but opposite). I can't stomach Fantasy as it has become too much of a cliche. The dwarf is short. The elf is clever. To me (and I appreciate it is probably only me) it's very much run-of-the mill. Sci Fi floats my boat because each one is different. May I recommend running a Sci Fi that you're familiar with Star Wars or Star Trek or similar. If the whole team is familiar with the genre, it's a lot easier to get into it.

I hope this helps.

One of the things I've noticed about fantasy settings is that they often have a "Good vs.Evil" feel to the conflict. Certainly there are big exceptions to this; I'm speaking generally. Even when the lines are blurry on G v.E, there is often a clear threat that must be faced.

Neither realworld based games nor sf settings seem to have that sort of clearcut conflict as regularly as fantasy settings.

Could this be part of your enjoyment of fantasy settings?

At what point during the sci-fi game do you sigh and think to yourself "I'd rather be playing D&D."? Is it making the characters? Designing adventures? Dealing with equipment costs? Dealing with the local societies? Maybe trying different kinds of sci-fi would discover one more to your taste, especially if it has the same themes as a fantasy game. Star Wars is one that seems to bridge the gap. Cyberpunk, post-apocalypse sci-fi, space opera, mecha, etc. are all different genres of sci-fi with different styles.

In the end what it boils down to is that this is like comparing apples to oranges. "Sci-fi," like Scourge mentioned, is too general to compare to "Fantasy," which is also too general. There are even "fantasy-sci-fi" games out there that prove this point.

So, my final opinion would be to find a system that you would enjoy playing that is in the genre of "sci-fi." Otherwise it gets too hard to compare.

Scourge108 said...

At what point during the sci-fi game do you sigh and think to yourself "I'd rather be playing D&D."?

One of the things I've noticed about fantasy settings is that they often have a "Good vs.Evil" feel to the conflict. Certainly there are big exceptions to this; I'm speaking generally. Even when the lines are blurry on G v.E, there is often a clear threat that must be faced.

Neither realworld based games nor sf settings seem to have that sort of clearcut conflict as regularly as fantasy settings.

Could this be part of your enjoyment of fantasy settings?

Have you looked at the Rifts RPG? It's a sci-fi setting that seems to have everything you want. (That's really the point of it, I guess. It's supposed to have everything that anybody could possibly want.) It's really too bad that the Rifts system is so messed up but I still recommend it for setting ideas.

Another game/setting you might look at to see if it catches your imagination is Pax Draconis <http://paxdraconis.com/> The reason it sprang to mind was your comment that you like the spiritual flavor of fantasy, and PD struck me as a game that treats religion and spirituallity seriously, much in the same way TROS handles it. (specifically: the power of religion is real, but derives from the convictions of those who believe). It also treads the science-fantasy line by having a detailed "psionics" system that has quite a magical flair to it.

As for the system, I've played a few times and it seems quite nice, which a level of crunch about on par with D&D.

I would also point you towards my Legends of Alyria RPG that is currently wending its way towards existence. There are some downloads at www.key20.com/alyria and a forum here on the Forge. The system is perhaps different than what you are used to, but the setting straddles the line between SF and fantasy, in the tradition of Gene Wolfe and Jack Vance. This could be a good compromise for your group. Even if you don't like the system (although I'd urge you to give it a try), you could port the setting to a different system and be up and off.

Seth Ben-Ezra
Great Wolf

Andrew, would suggestions of fantastic stories with scifi props and good vs evil conflicts interest you? The first few that pop into mind are anime, because they're more recent for me.

I'll just give one as a demonstration of concept. The series "Lost Universe" is about an interstellar civilisation in which people find Lost Ships. Lost Ships are intelligent, powerful, and generally Evil. They need to drain energy from humans. In order to secure psychic energy they help their patsy gain his own goals. The series starts as a silly comedy until the secrets of the Lost Ships and the organization Nightmare are revealed.

Alternity mechanics support a considerable fantasy element. Dark Matter makes heavy use of that sort of thing. It isn't entirely clear what you think of Alternity itself.

John

Hi Andrew,

Fantasy Flight Games' Dragonstar setting might help fulfill your d20 Fantasy fetish while keeping your friend out of trouble for playing D&D. In it you will find all the things you love about Fantasy, but with an added layer of Science-Fiction elements like starships, lasers, far-flung colony worlds, etc. Worth checking out, and it would require less conversion than Pax Draconis, if you stick with Alternity.

I'm reading Jeph's excellent Exemplar, and am getting cool vibes from it. Sci-fi, clear focus, slight fantastic elements, borderline metaphysics; depending on how it played it could be angstfully ambiguous or GoodVsEvil.

One is that sci-fi often has problems with a wide scope. The PCs often have a vehicle which lets them zip about to distant places, and instantaneous communication to many possible sources. So it can be hard to get depth -- the extreme case being space opera planet-of-the-week.

Somehow I find "Wow! I developed this really cool framistat that bends light waves to make me invisible!" less engaging than "I created this magical staff but had summon and make a deal with a demon to do so."

I *like* that most of the fantasy literature I read and enjoy isn't morally ambiguous.

Actually, I have seen Dragonstar and taken a VERY quick look at it. The only thing that threw me off is the extremely bad orcs and elves in space stuff I had read before. Does anyone have a decent review of the setting? I'd be interested in hearing it.

Andrew

Well, what do we enjoy about fantasy? This alone can tell us a lot about what we will or will not like about sci-fi settings, really.

1) Cultural archetypes in fantasy play are often a big draw. I'm not a big fan of importing these full-scale into another genre (Space Celts are very hard to pull off, though it's been done, once...can't remember the name of the book for the life of me, though.), but I do suggest looking for other appropriate archetypes which can be a lot of fun. For example, it's rather hard to emulate the English Empire (of the 1880's, say) in a fantasy game, but a cultivated interstellar empire which rules over hundreds of semi-primitive worlds by virtue of technology, culture, and diplomatic ingenuity? I think so! Or perhaps a mess of isolated worlds cut off from their once-master, seething with revolution, poverty, and hope for modernization (Bolivar's south america). You see, there are many cultural-historical archetypes that can be used for Sci-fi play.

2) Heroic Character in fantasy play often seems easier -- summoning a host of angels by virtue of your great faith or single-handedly defeating the Lord of The Blood Lands in hand-to-hand combat seems more characterful than pressing the Missile Button. This can be solved by either technical means (spaceships are valuable, man! Boarding actions all around!), or by creating a heroic set of player-goals and challenges that play off the specific nature of the genre. Heroism in sci-fi often has the potential to be extremely character-focused -- for example, the medic who braves the wreck of the cruise ship Osmund to resucitate the survivors -- so long as the emphasis stays on them (IE the medic is the focus, not her super-healo-beam).

3) Remoteness of fantasy play is quite appealing. We have computers, nation-states, bosses, elections, and the everpresent threat of guns in our own lives, so, to some degree, a fantasy game can be more 'escapist' than a game which incorporates these elements. Once again, this element can be incorporated into sci-fi games by making technology and society either very different to the point of virtual incomprehesibility (Dune) or by securing a universe in which these similarities are used fruitfully, to increase the number of 'strange things' that can be done -- Shadowrun is a good example of this.

Any other things people enjoy about fantasy that might help this poor man make it into less of a bland, light-speed-laser-blaster-flavored experience?


Brother Adso
Stat Roma pristina nomina, nomina nuda tenemus.

Extra Random Note: Look up PARANOIA. It's one of the funniest and most original Sci-Fi games I've ever played. If you want to start out small and silly to work your way up, this is the place.

Actually, I love Paranoia. I hadn't thought of that but you are correct. It's a really funny game. I think the one of the funniest things in the book is the picture of the PC with a bazooka pointed at some poor schmuck cowering against a wall and the caption read something like, "Bob gets a bonus to his persuade check."

[ot]SLA Industries has celts in the form of the sword-wielding frothers[/ot]

running sci-fi is sometimes a bit harder because the technology allows players to travel faster and communicate easier.
the GM is usually trying to think up credible answers as to why the crafty players can not circumvent the whole adventure with some unforseen device ability.

in fantasy you can't just zip to the end of the dungeon at Mach 10.

But you can set fire to it and use up all of its oxygen.

But yeah, I think that everyone is on the right track. Fantasy is probably more protagonising because of its focus on the human element.

The human element is only strengthened by the focus on nature since nature is a focus on God. I.E. Everything exists in this natural wonderful romantic world. Sci-fi has a harder time with that because we live in non-romantic world and going forward doesn't always intuitively (<== Butchered word) look to the future for that.

And science fiction leads to fear of thinking. Or something like that.

My favorite thing from this whole thread was from the person who said that Sci-fi is progressive while Fantasy is regressive. I've been kindof struggling with this subject before that. Thank you.

May the wind be always at your back,
-Pyron

I believe that with the problem of being able to get around a lot quicker in sci-fi really isn't a problem at all. The problem is the fact that we are used to the travelling issue in fantasy. The long treks between cities adds to the elements of fantasy RPGs.

In Sci-Fi we have to look at the situation a little differently. Travel between planets can be compared to travel between cities or kingdoms, and travel on a planet can be compared to travel within a city. IMO, that view can help you realize where the epic feel of sci-fi comes from as compared to fantasy, and allows the GM to plan his missions accordingly.

Andrew, having read the previous post, I couldn't actually find what the restriction was. Just that you can't play "fantasy" because the guy's parent's won't let him. What specifically about fantasy do they disapprove of? Beause there are some fantasy games which might not offend them. There are, for instance, some specifically Christian fantasy RPGs (can somebody help me with titles). If we knew what it was that they specifically objected to, then maybe we could suggest a game closer to what you like that's not problematic to them.

But, to get back to the thread proper here, I think that a lot of people have hit on the solution. What's the difference between Star Wars and any fantasy book? Lets see, there's a boy from a remote place who learns of a group of people struggling against an evil overlord. The boy goes and gets his father's lightsabre (magic sword), and learns from an ancient wizard (Kenobi) the ways of The Force, an almost magical power. He then goes off on a quest to destroy the fortress of the jedi knight in black armor. He rides his trusty x-wing fighter into battle, and manages against all odds to use the magi..Force to destroy the deathstar. Later he finds out that the black knight is his father seduced to the dark side by the evil emperor. Yadda, yadda...

What about this isn't just fantasy in a different wrapper? So is it the action or the wrapper that you're having problems with?

Mike

Mike,

I think the big problem is trying to grip the world itself in the collective imaginings. A bit of it is subjective, but there simply isn't as much of a template to "expect" from your setting, nor is there as much structure for what you want to do be doing in game.

I'd say if some players have this sort of problem with the setting, it's either (a) wrong audience and lack of expectations (e.g. non-anime-folks playing in a heavily anime-influenced setting and "not getting it"), or (b) the settings fault, for making false assumptions and not getting the world's feel across.

Mike,

The reasons the parents have for not liking the fantasy genre are fairly silly. They just don't like fantasy but can live with Sci Fi. The Force, Psionics and technology so advanced it seems supernatural doesn't bother them but calling it magic and sorcery does. It isn't logical but there it is.

Anyway, Dev is correct. My liking for Fantasy is a very subjective thing. It's the same kind of thing as why I like Football better than Basketball, why I like asperagus better than brocolli or why I like Smallville better than Buffy. It isn't that I don't like Sci Fi. I just much prefer Fantasy.

My experience level with Sci Fi is probably part of my issue too. I've read more Fantasy and that does provide me with a certain comfort level with winging things when need be. As I run more Sci Fi, I'll probably get more comfortable with it and that'll obviously make me like it a bit more.

Okay, here's the biggest of example of a Sci-Fi universe having way, way, way too much scope:

http://www.orionsarm.com

It's a 'verse of mind-blowing and amazing potential (NoCoZo forever!) but... WHAT CAN YOU DO??? The Encyclopaedia alone is untraversable. If you ask me, dumping the Encylopaedia Galactica on your desk and saying you've got a setting is really wrong. (Of course, Orion's Arm isn't going for a RPG setting, more like a hard-science future history, so I'm not critisizing it, but it's suitability for play.)

You still seem to be dodging the question. I mean, are they insane, or is there a religious reasoning to their objection? Why don't they like magic?

Because, for example, this game: http://www.holylands.net/main.htm

is a Christian fantasy RPG. So if they're christians, they can hardly object, and you'd get to play fantasy.

Now, this particular game might not suit, but there are a bunch of others.
http://www.aubogames.com/hlyqsthp.html
http://www.dragonraid.net

If the players all chose Christian backgrounds, then even Pendragon might qualify.

The point is that you may be able to have your cake and eat it too. Depending on what the objection really is.

Now, that said, I apollogize for any derailing I've done. I do realize that you're already into your new game and as such the topic is getting you accustomed to it. That said, I'm a little confused about your response. Do you want to aclimate to sci-fi or don't you?

My point is that if you allow your fantasy genre conventions to guide you that you'll do just fine in Sci-fi. Just change sabre to light-sabre, and Spell of Mind Control to Jedi Mind Trick. For space opera, the adjustment should be minimal. Does tech seem problematic? Then either gloss it over entirely, or assign a Tech Czar - a player who has the power to create technologies as neccessary to maintain your plots as you see fit.

Mike

Yes, their objections are religious in origin. I find this odd as my father is their pastor and he doesn't have any objections to my game. Sorry I seemed to be dodging before. It wasn't intentional.

Actually, I am doing a good bit of what you have suggested with my current Alternity campaign. Since I'm a little unsure of myself in the setting, I've decided to model the game after the good old fashion fantasy dungeon crawl, which is incredibly simple to run. I've replaced monsters with unknown alien species, dungeons with planets and star systems, magic with psionics and a homebase (village) with a Fortress Ship. I must say that the first session went quite well. I figure I'll get a little more complex with the stories as I get more comfortable with the setting and system.

In my experience, pointing out such logical inconsistencies to people with religious objections to RPGs doesn't accomplish much, since their objections aren't really based on reason. It's a matter of faith. Whether or not it's misplaced faith is a matter of opinion, and arguing about it is futile. I know of people who think Christian rock, for example, is even worse than Gwar or Marilyn Manson on the Satanic scale, since they are pretending to be righteous and dragging God into their "filth." I have pointed out such great Christian works of fantasy as C.S. Lewis' Narnia series and Dragonraid, but I have seen it backfire more often than convert. A large amount of people believe that anything to do with magic or the supernatural in any way is glamorizing demonic black magic. I recall when the same people who started the D&D is Evil movement claimed that the Smurfs was a satanic recruiting propoganda show (although come to think of it, they may have a point...), simply because Papa Smurf made a magic potion. It may seem silly to us, but as they see it, this one minor occult object in their house may be the difference between having someone sacrifice a baby in the basement as part of the game. Dressing it up in sheep's clothing is just the sort of trick the devil would pull. I'd recommend using sci-fi explanation for fantasy themes (i.e. genetic mutations that give psionic powers similar to "spells"). Unless they are more of the type that thinks roleplaying any sort of violent or dangerous activity is destructive to young minds and can instantly turn a mild-mannered choirboy into an axe-wielding maniac. Those are usually the extremists on the other wing, though.