Hello, everyone. In this thread, I discussed the need to change the iconography for the Alyria system. Several ideas were bandied about, including clock faces. After tossing around the ideas, I think that I have come up with a tentative replacement iconography.

The advantage of the clock iconography is that it presents an obvious progression, like the moon phases. However, I didn't think that anyone would really stomach having a Trait at "3 o'clock". Seemed weird. Then, suddenly, I realized that the clock faces could be used to represent different time periods of a day (or night), thus representing waxing and waning light...which was the point of the moon phases in the first place.

So, here's what I'm thinking of doing:



• Full Moon becomes Noon and is symbolized by a white clock face with hands at 12:00
• Gibbous becomes Daylight and is symbolized by a white clock face with hands at 3:00, shading area swept by hour hand
• Half Moon becomes Twilight and is symbolized by a white clock face with hands at 6:00, shading area swept by hour hand
• Crescent becomes Nightfall and is symbolized by a white clock face with hands at 9:00, shading area swept by hour hand
• New Moon becomes Midnight and is symbolized by a black clock face with hands at 12:00
• Weeping Moon becomes Devil's Hour and is symbolized by a red hourglass



So, what I'm looking for in this thread is simple: I'd like feedback. Does this work? Any proposed sharpening of symbols or terms? Any other comments?

Thanks again to everyone for your help.

Three and nine are going to be hard to tell apart, likely, unless you make the area "swept" by the minute hand shaded. Thus, three would be a quarter pie, and nine would be a three quarters pie. Then just unify the symbols so that six is a half circle. The other two will look like you've already proposed. This has the advantage that noon, the brightest time of day, will look it, and so on down the line, each getting darker and darker.

Mike

I like it.

Daylight bugs me as a term, however.

Seems to me Noon and 3:00 are "Day" traits
Nightfall and midnight are "night" traits.
and "twilight" is a transitional trait.

There might be some way to use "Day" and "Night" to refer to Good and Evil....something.


But "daylight" as a term for the 3:00 position...

I see the problem. Going from "noon" to "afternoon" lacks a certain flair.

Perhaps there is an Alyrian equivelent to "teatime"?



Edit to add: Noon, 3, 6, 9, and 12 roughly corresponds to Sext, None, Vespers, Compline, and Matins...the Catholic prayer offices.

Perhaps, Alyria has something similiar...

The problem is that there is poor correspondence between the times and the names; but it's really only the three o'clock position that's problematic. I think we can all accept Noon, XX, Twilight (or Dusk?), Nightfall, Midnight, and Devil's Hour; it's just that "XX" doesn't have a good definition.

So what kinds of things happen in the afternoon?

• Afternoon• Tea Time• Quitting Time• Shift Change• Siesta• Heat of the Day• Late Lunch• Dinner• Bank Closing

Nothing here is inspiring me.

Maybe something could be added to the scenario that gave significance to three o'clock--changing of the guard, or special prayers, or shift change whistle, or a change in the wind even. Give it meaning in the setting, then give it a name that sounds reasonable, and let that be three o'clock.

Daylight just doesn't cut it, because it sounds too much like morning.

I kind of like Siesta, but that there's really no place in Alyria where everyone takes a break in the middle of the afternoon, and particularly not in the Citadel (where the clock is). Daylight doesn't work, though, because when you use it for three, it makes me think of three AM and the approaching dawn, which is too dark for the concept.

Sorry I can't be more help on that. I really don't have a problem with three, six, and nine as the middle positions, with noon and midnight on the ends--when I suggested the clock, noon and midnight were really my solution to having twelve on both ends.

--M. J. Young

I think what bothers me about the term Daylight is it refers to a more general period of time than the other terms. Daylight to me evokes anytime between Dawn and Nightfall or at least Twilight. The other terms are more specific periods. Noon, Twilight, Nightfall and Midnight are specific events almost (well Twilight is a little mushy...but you get my drift.)

Instinctivly I want to add in Dawn because the breaking of new light would seem important in a visceral sense. Its when people awaken (farm folk anyway.) I think of Night on Bald Mountain when the cock crows signaling the dawn and the winding down of the dancing witches, sprirts, whatever. I mean afternoon is so...compressed between noon and twilight.... You have the transition from day to night graded finely but the jump from night to day seems abrupt. If the cyclical quality is important I suggest adding Dawn.

Dawn, Noon, Twilight (Dusk), Nightfall, Midnight, Devil's Hour.

Trevis

How about "Past Peak," referring to the sun's position in the sky, as an alternative to daylight?

Overall, I dig it, with or without changing Daylight to something else.

I don't know... I don't mind Daylight, but maybe Westering is better. It's not a common term, though. Day's Heat, or even Scorch, might work, but the connotation is less useful for conveying the mood that Gibbous had given.

(edit for spelling error)

I don't like the red hourglass.
I'd just go with an empty, red circle, in keeping with the rest of the iconography. No clock hands, just empty.

As for "Daylight": the term for that time of day, which everyone seems to be avoiding, is "Afternoon." I honestly don't mind "Daylight."

What I think we need are names "vague" enough that they can be used for either side of the clock, so to speak.

"Twilight" works for that purpose, 'cause it can refer to either morning twilight, or evening twilight - in other words, dawn or dusk.

"Midnight" and "Noon" obviously work 'cause they're the endpoints. "Nightfall" and "Daylight" are both... well, blurry. Nightfall could, in theory be on either side of midnight, but the 'fall' suggests that it's before Midnight. Daylight has no specific meaning other than "the sun is still out and shining and it's not exactly noon."

So, oddly, I'm okay with "Daylight", but "Nightfall" could be slightly improved.

That said, if you change nothing I'd still be able to enjoy what you've created.

I like the hourglass, personally. Too bad you can't use "Morning" instead of "Daylight" that'd be evocative. However, maybe something like "Afterlight" or "Late Day" or make up a term like "Drowselight" or "Afton".

Best,

Blake

How about:

Full Moon becomes Dawn and is symbolized by a white clock face with black hands at 6:00

Gibbous becomes Morning and is symbolized by a white clock face with black hands at 9:00

Half Moon becomes Noon and is symbolized by a white clock face on one side and a black clock face on the other with hands at 12:00

Crescent becomes Afternoon and is symbolized by a black clock face with white hands at 3:00

New Moon becomes Evening and is symbolized by a black clock face with white hands at 6:00

Weeping Moon becomes Devil's Hour and is symbolized by a a black clock face with red hands pointing to midnight

I whipped up this little icon as an example of what I envision the clock faces would look like on the dice.

I'm personally thinking a little more gothic in style (more pointy edges), and with the edge breaks more even (*cough*sorry) but you get the idea:

[img]http://www.daegmorgan.net/igallery/alyria-clock-sample.jpg[/img]

Alex's logic made me think of this.

Just do Day and Night for Daylight and Nightfall. That is, you have noon and midnight, and then you have day and night which are on both sides of those, and then you have twilight in between.

Think of it as a circle:[code] Noon
Day Day
Twilight Twilight
Night Night
Midnight[/code]
I think the devil's hour should look like a red circle with the hands otherwise like the Midnight hour.

Mike

I vote for the hourglass just 'cause a lot of homemade dice (and many character sheets) might be black and white; relying on color could cause unnecessary confusion in terms of, y'know, Actual Play.

A couple of quick comments, mostly thinking out loud:

Ralph,

Since I see the Keeper religion as looking vaguely Catholic (e.g. they pray the Gear, which is comparable to a rosary), using the prayer offices would be cool. Problem is that I don't know the offices very well, and I'm not sure that I'd want to connect (say) Nocturnes to an Evil Trait. It seems to be a little counterintuitive. I'm also willing to be persuaded otherwise; it definitely would be cool color, if it could be made to work.

Alexander,

I hear you completely. I'd like the terms to be neutral as to their location between noon and midnight, since these terms tend to indicate either a moving from light to dark or moving from dark to light. So, as you note, Daylight could be morning or afternoon, which could be moving in either direction. On the other hand, Nightfall is definitely light moving to darkness.

One possibility is to adopt two sets of terms, one moving from light to dark and the other moving in the other direction. So, for instance, the former Half Moon would be Twilight and Dawn. This would add some descriptive flexibility by defining a Trait as tending to move in one direction, but it could also add a measure of confusion. Any thoughts?

(Why yes, Mike, this would be comparable to waxing and waning moon phases, wouldn't it?)

Raven,

I like what I'm seeing, and I agree about using a Gothic feel. Can you PM me about this? I do find myself suddenly needing some clock graphics....

Thing is, there are THREE half-moons, right? And thus three twilights. Which makes waxing vs. waning (or morning vs. afternoon) kinda hard to do. Day and Night come in pairs, so divide equally. Noon and Midnight only need one apiece. But three doesn't get easily divided by two.

Anyway, being a language nerd, I know already that twilight can refer to the period just before dawn, or just after dusk. Which is why I like it - it's already a word that refers to BOTH sides of the coin. It is "The diffused light from the sky during the early evening or early morning when the sun is below the horizon and its light is refracted by the earth's atmosphere." That's why there is 'morning twilight' and 'evening twilight.'

So... all you need to do is call Nightfall "Nighttime". No need to call Twilight two different things, 'cause you already got one word that means both.

GreatWolf wrote: (Why yes, Mike, this would be comparable to waxing and waning moon phases, wouldn't it?)

Mike Holmes wrote:

GreatWolf wrote: (Why yes, Mike, this would be comparable to waxing and waning moon phases, wouldn't it?)

Are you saying it would be too close?

Actually, Mike, I think that the reason your idea about shading has not received comment is that it was part of the suggestions on the parent thread.

What you wrote: Three and nine are going to be hard to tell apart, likely, unless you make the area "swept" by the minute hand shaded. Thus, three would be a quarter pie, and nine would be a three quarters pie. Then just unify the symbols so that six is a half circle. The other two will look like you've already proposed. This has the advantage that noon, the brightest time of day, will look it, and so on down the line, each getting darker and darker.

What Seth wrote:


• Full Moon becomes Noon and is symbolized by a white clock face with hands at 12:00
• Gibbous becomes Daylight and is symbolized by a white clock face with hands at 3:00, shading area swept by hour hand
• Half Moon becomes Twilight and is symbolized by a white clock face with hands at 6:00, shading area swept by hour hand
• Crescent becomes Nightfall and is symbolized by a white clock face with hands at 9:00, shading area swept by hour hand
• New Moon becomes Midnight and is symbolized by a black clock face with hands at 12:00
• Weeping Moon becomes Devil's Hour and is symbolized by a red hourglass

Just found this topic. Some thoughts:

Daylight - Slanting Sun
Twilight - Magic Hour (film term for either dusk or dawn when there's light but the sun isn't directly visible)
Night - Darkness, Starlight, Moonlight.

Cheers,
Steve.