Topic: Will this tweak for Sorcerer work?
Started by: Rexfelis
Started on: 5/21/2004
Board: Adept Press
On 5/21/2004 at 9:40pm, Rexfelis wrote:
Will this tweak for Sorcerer work?
Hello,
I am working on a version of Sorcerer set in a "medieval space opera" setting of my own creation. [The setting was originally going to be its own game, called Dominion, which I posted on here a while back.] Instead of controlling a demon, each player character controls one or more "golems," fleshy robots with "special powers," which were created by an ancient civilization using a lost technology.
The trappings of the setting will embroil the PCs in political intrigue, forbidden love, revenge, and the quest for salvation. These trappings will create the kickers for the PCs, and influence the unfolding of their personal stories. The golems fit in as tools used by the PCs in their several dramas. The Humanity stat measures the degree to which a PC treats other sentient beings--in particular his golem(s)--with sympathy and respect.
I'm not experienced enough with Sorcerer to know whether it can handle a tweak like this. The role of the golem in Dominion is basically the inverse of that of the demon in Sorcerer; as I understand it, demons are essentially unsympathetic and threatening creatures, while golems would be essentially passive vessels of the PC's will, for which an impartial spectator would likely feel some sympathy.
....
The premise of Dominion would be something like, "How responsible are you at wielding dominion over a sentient being which is almost wholly subject to your will?"; can Sorcerer handle this, or do I need a new rules set?
Thanks,
Rexfelis
Forge Reference Links:
Topic 10259
On 5/22/2004 at 4:19am, greyorm wrote:
RE: Will this tweak for Sorcerer work?
Well, three important mechanical questions spring to mind immediately:
What are the Needs and Desires of the golems?
How do they rebel when they do not recieve these?
How do sorcerous rituals work in regards to them?
On 5/22/2004 at 2:19pm, Rexfelis wrote:
RE: Will this tweak for Sorcerer work?
greyorm wrote: Well, three important mechanical questions spring to mind immediately:
What are the Needs and Desires of the golems?
How do they rebel when they do not recieve these?
How do sorcerous rituals work in regards to them?
Thanks for responding.
I should have explained this in the original post. The Needs of the golems are simplistic, even bland--they are the fuel sources for the golems (though I'm thinking of having different types, such as electron flows, organic matter which can be digested, inorganic matter of certain types, etc.).
The sorcerous rituals are basically off-screen mechanical procedures and sets of verbal commands which must be given by the PCs to get the golems to do what they want them to do. The Lore stat thus represents the "lost technical knowledge of the Ancients," which is used to command the golems (and, incidentally, to manipulate ancient "artifacts," basically lost-tech magic items).
I'm having the most trouble conceptualizing how the Desires of the golems will work, and how rebellion will work. Now, I could give the golems full-blown personalities like I imagine demons are supposed to have, but that doesn't feel quite right. Golems were designed to be relatively passive tools. They are sentient, feel pain, and have some independence of thought just because this helps them do their jobs. Rebellion as such isn't programmed into their nature.
On the other hand, I might be able to get mileage out of the golems if I give them limited personalities and Desires of some sort. Perhaps each was programmed to support some ancient faction or cause? I just haven't been able to think of anything yet that grips the imagination.
Basically, I really like the idea of a game about dominion over robots, and this idea grew out of the sci fi setting I've been working on for a while, but I'm not quite sure how to implement it in practice.
Well, I was supposed to create characters and discuss the game with my prospective players tonight, but I'm probably not ready for that yet (though I already have my R-map and backstory).
Thanks and regards,
R
On 5/23/2004 at 10:09pm, Michael S. Miller wrote:
Re: Will this tweak for Sorcerer work?
Rexfelis wrote: The Humanity stat measures the degree to which a PC treats other sentient beings--in particular his golem(s)--with sympathy and respect.
From my point of view, this is pretty close to a game-breaker. Sorcerer is set up to put players in the position of deciding between doing what is right (in line with Humanity) and doing what comes easily to them (going against Humanity by feeding the dysfunctional Needs of their demons). From what you've said, your characters don't have to face that choice, because both sides of the coin are the same thing: helping the golem. So, Sorcerer will putter along as well as anything else, I suppose, but the engine won't soar, because you've taken the tension out.
The premise of Dominion would be something like, "How responsible are you at wielding dominion over a sentient being which is almost wholly subject to your will?"; can Sorcerer handle this, or do I need a new rules set?
Now, that doesn't mean that Sorcerer isn't right for your idea, but maybe your golems aren't the demons. I mean, to me they read like a wrench. You say they're sentient, but they don't want anything. Sounds like a really smart wrench to me.
What do you see characters doing with these golems? More importantly, why are they doing it? In one of the previous threads on this idea you wrote:
The player characters will choose which side of the jihad they want to support. They will then be placed in trying situations where there is no obvious right answer. How much violence are we willing to use to defend our point of view? Do I choose loyalty to family or loyalty to my feudal lord? Do I choose loyalty to religion over either of these? To what extent should I cooperate with my enemy when a common threat emerges (such as the "demons," or else mundane threats such as bandits, warlords, criminal gangs, rogue AIs, or hostile humans or post-humans from worlds outside the Dominion)?
If you want to use Sorcerer to tell a a story like this, then pick one of those questions. Don't feel that you have to pick one that sums up the whole setting, but you're just running one story, so it should only have one thematic heart. If you choose "How much violence are we willing to use to defend our point of view?" then your Humanity definition can still be Empathy, insofar as it would incur a Humanity Check to perform violence upon someone.
Once that is set up, then define Demons around the opposite of Humanity. Perhaps Demons are all about Suffering. Since your setting is as vast as the stars, the different demon types might not have any in-game linkage. F'r instance, Possessors could be those "demons" you mention that are trying to destroy realspace, and they want to trick these humans into helping them. Inconspicous are your golems, but since they're designed around the concept of Suffering, make only combat golems available to the players. Passers might be warmongering people that enable the PCs, but are thirsty for blood. Parasites can be cybernetic attachments that need to ingest organic matter from other sentients (i.e., also thirsty for blood). See Jesse Burkino's Spaceships, six-guns and sorcer games linked at the http://www.sorcerer-rpg.com/brochure.php/actualplay.html for an idea on how to loosen up the concept of what a demon is.
On 5/24/2004 at 12:04am, Rexfelis wrote:
RE: Re: Will this tweak for Sorcerer work?
Michael S. Miller wrote: From my point of view, this is pretty close to a game-breaker. Sorcerer is set up to put players in the position of deciding between doing what is right (in line with Humanity) and doing what comes easily to them (going against Humanity by feeding the dysfunctional Needs of their demons). From what you've said, your characters don't have to face that choice, because both sides of the coin are the same thing: helping the golem. So, Sorcerer will putter along as well as anything else, I suppose, but the engine won't soar, because you've taken the tension out.
The choice is between (1) treating the golem as a means only and (2) setting self-imposed limits on what one will do with one's golem, at the likely expense of achieving the goals of the character (political, religious, personal). Satisfying the Need is only a technical problem, but how and whether to sacrifice the golem to one's goals--therein lies the moral problem.
The golem is basically like an NPC henchman with one or more special powers. In most games I've run, the PCs have treated henchmen pretty poorly. Giving each PC a great deal of power over a special henchman and measuring the use of this power with the Humanity stat might set up an interesting exploration of the slave/master issue.
OTOH, my fear is that the setting doesn't support the golem idea specifically. Yes, there are enserfed golems in the setting, with virtually no rights, and yes, I envision the abuse of power or slave/master issue as being integral to the setting (as it's a horribly repressive, patriarchal, caste-based culture), and yes, I envision the PCs as all being in positions with power over others--but, I'm not sure whether the relation between a PC and a "personal" golem will be central in the same way that the sorcerer-demon relation is in Sorcerer. It comes pretty close, but it might not be close enough.
About the issues in the setting: there is a lot going on; I've got a struggle between heretics and the orthodox, between the emperor and anarchistic revolutionaries, between the emperor and the head of the church, between the Dominion and foreigners, between the guilds and gangs who profit from black market trade, etc., etc. All this is in some sense just color, in that it helps illustrate the corrupt, broken-down, oppressive nature of the setting. The main premise has to be about the abuse of power generally, and about how religious ideology and philosophy can reinforce systematic abuses of power (in belief, in politics, in families, in firms, and in markets). The Humanity stat measures how far a character has gone in the abuse of power.
Once that is set up, then define Demons around the opposite of Humanity. Perhaps Demons are all about Suffering. Since your setting is as vast as the stars, the different demon types might not have any in-game linkage. F'r instance, Possessors could be those "demons" you mention that are trying to destroy realspace, and they want to trick these humans into helping them. Inconspicous are your golems, but since they're designed around the concept of Suffering, make only combat golems available to the players. Passers might be warmongering people that enable the PCs, but are thirsty for blood. Parasites can be cybernetic attachments that need to ingest organic matter from other sentients (i.e., also thirsty for blood). See Jesse Burkino's Spaceships, six-guns and sorcer games linked at the http://www.sorcerer-rpg.com/brochure.php/actualplay.html for an idea on how to loosen up the concept of what a demon is.
This is very interesting. My initial thought is, "If I'm going to change the conception of demons that radically, why play Sorcerer?" Sorcerer may or may not be the best fit for the type of game I have in mind. Now, the mechanics of Sorcerer can of course accomodate such alternative conceptions of demons, but I'm not sure the setting and game-play I have in mind contains ready analogues that can be plugged into the Sorcerer demon mechanics.
Thanks,
R
On 5/24/2004 at 12:36am, TonyLB wrote:
RE: Will this tweak for Sorcerer work?
Are the golems fairly rare, or easily replaceable?
Because if they're rare items then I have to agree with what previous posters have pointed out, that treating the golem well is both a moral and a practical consideration. It will seldom make sense to sacrifice a rare, irreplaceable golem for temporary gain.
If they're more expendable then this is a different issue, of course.
Might I recommend "Kiln People", by David Brin? It brings up some similar and interesting questions of identity and sympathy in a setting where it is possible to cheaply make specialized, disposable copies of yourself.
On 5/24/2004 at 3:18am, iambenlehman wrote:
RE: Will this tweak for Sorcerer work?
I am of the opinion that there is no particular that the demons have to be, consciously, opposed to your Humanity -- but the keeping and use of demons has to be.
What if the very act of keeping the Golems is hurtful to them, in some manner?
yrs--
--Ben
On 5/24/2004 at 11:12am, Rob Carriere wrote:
RE: Will this tweak for Sorcerer work?
What if you consider the golems sort of inverse demons? They're intelligent, friendly, helpful, and oh-so-easy to abuse. Sorta like Asimov's robots. Now, when the going gets tough, are you going to send in poor li'l golem (who will obey), or are you willing to risk your own precious skin?
SR
--
On 5/24/2004 at 7:00pm, John Harper wrote:
RE: Will this tweak for Sorcerer work?
I'm concerned about the idea of golems as simple tools. One of the main GM jobs in Sorcerer is roleplaying the demons. If the golems are simply blank servants that do what they're told then the GM loses her main source of input into the game. To me, roleplaying the demons is at least half the fun of running a Sorcerer game.
Maybe I misunderstood you, though. Is there more to playing the golems than saying "Yes, master?"
On 5/25/2004 at 4:30pm, Rexfelis wrote:
RE: Will this tweak for Sorcerer work?
John Harper wrote: I'm concerned about the idea of golems as simple tools. One of the main GM jobs in Sorcerer is roleplaying the demons. If the golems are simply blank servants that do what they're told then the GM loses her main source of input into the game. To me, roleplaying the demons is at least half the fun of running a Sorcerer game.
Maybe I misunderstood you, though. Is there more to playing the golems than saying "Yes, master?"
The working conception of golems is that they are predisposed to passively obey whomever they have been "bound" to by the technical ritual. So they would probably not be very interesting to role-play.
No, I am currently of the opinion that Sorcerer might not be the right game for Dominion. The game would have to be focused on abusing/not abusing the golems, instead of on the political/religious intrigue angle. Also, as the golems are relatively rare, there might be self-interested reasons not to abuse the golems (unless they're easy to hurt but hard to kill or lose control of [in which case a self-interested PC would still send his golem into harm's way willy-nilly]).
I initially thought that the play of Dominion would resemble a sci-fi version of Sorcerer and Sword. However, as my ideas developed, sorcery became increasingly less important in the Dominion setting. The golem idea was supposed to be a re-conceptualization of sorcery to fit the setting, but now I'm begining to think I should use a different game for Dominion after all. I never conceived the play of the Dominion campaign as revolving around the treatment of artificial life forms. That might be a workable idea, but it's for a different game.
Thanks for the comments. They were very helpful.
Regards,
R
On 5/25/2004 at 6:28pm, xiombarg wrote:
RE: Will this tweak for Sorcerer work?
Rob Carriere wrote: What if you consider the golems sort of inverse demons? They're intelligent, friendly, helpful, and oh-so-easy to abuse. Sorta like Asimov's robots. Now, when the going gets tough, are you going to send in poor li'l golem (who will obey), or are you willing to risk your own precious skin?
Certainly that might be something that can make a good idea for a Desire for the Golems: an inborn desire to help humanity as a whole.
You could make this game be sort of "Ayn Rand Sorcerer" by defining Humanity as the ability to be selfish. The more you work with the golems, the harder and harder it becomes to deal with the jihad and to actually advance your own interests over those of others. When you reach 0 Humanity, you become an impractical saint with a martyr complex.
On 5/27/2004 at 11:54am, Old_Scratch wrote:
RE: Will this tweak for Sorcerer work?
Rexfelis wrote: No, I am currently of the opinion that Sorcerer might not be the right game for Dominion. The game would have to be focused on abusing/not abusing the golems, instead of on the political/religious intrigue angle. Also, as the golems are relatively rare, there might be self-interested reasons not to abuse the golems (unless they're easy to hurt but hard to kill or lose control of [in which case a self-interested PC would still send his golem into harm's way willy-nilly]).
R
I'm confused - I think Sorcerer would be perfect for this game, there's just some things you really haven't explored that upon further development would make the setting more applicable to Sorcerer.
First, there's these characters with ancient, powerful automatons, relics of a pre-history Ancients! These player-characters are wielding instruments of not only incredible power, but significance as well. It would set them right in the middle of the religious turmoil you describe - are these sacred artifacts or unholy ones? Who is allowed to wield these things?
These characters are essentially endowed with remarkable power and besieged by enemies. Anyone with that much power isn't going to be concerned solely with respecting their golems, but concerned with the ideologies that these golems are put to use in serving. In other words, the golems are instruments for their cause.
Also, I don't understand why with such ancient artifacts they wouldn't have their own needs? Why do you state them as being simple? They're golems right, designed to last for centuries or millenia - what if the ancients knew they were going to exist forever:
To be honest, you've got one of the *big* sci-fi ideas here: relics of a forgotten race and you really haven't exploited the ideas at all...
The golems could simply pretend to be simple, in truth:
1) They are the vessels of the sleeping souls of the ancients. The powers they exhibit are merely the defensive measures in the vessels, or the unconscious powers of the sleeping ancients. What happens when the Ancients awaken, and are able to use their full powers?
2) They are the timeless servants of the ancients. The ancients knew they were going to die out and wanted their project to carry on. All the golems may in touch with one another and each has a specific need. One might secretly monitor the DNA make up of the people around them, creating a constant need for blood as part of the scientific inquiry. What is the
3) The Ancients may be in hiding, deepin a vault on some planet in the corner of the universe, observing through the eyes of their servants, gathering information, and twisting and manipulating the mortals who have inherited their universe.
4) The Ancients could be dead: these golems the instruments of their demise, and now the foolish children of this era play about with the instruments of the apocalypse as if they were toys - what happens when one of them begins the Apocalypse Cycle anew?
I think you have a great idea here, I'd like to see it developed and there's no reason Sorcerer couldn't be used for the system.
On 5/27/2004 at 3:00pm, TonyLB wrote:
RE: Will this tweak for Sorcerer work?
Old_Scratch, you seem to be offering a Premise very different from that one that Rexfelis has said he's interested in pursuing.
If you're saying "Sorceror will work great, you just need a more Sorcerish Premise", that's cool (and probably true). But I wouldn't want to assume that's what you're saying. Is it?
On 5/27/2004 at 3:47pm, Old_Scratch wrote:
RE: Will this tweak for Sorcerer work?
TonyLB wrote: Old_Scratch, you seem to be offering a Premise very different from that one that Rexfelis has said he's interested in pursuing.
If you're saying "Sorceror will work great, you just need a more Sorcerish Premise", that's cool (and probably true). But I wouldn't want to assume that's what you're saying. Is it?
I didn't think my premise was that far off from his original premise (when I read the old Domain threads).
He has a fractured post-apocalyptic religion with highly contested beliefs. An ancient civilization long lost.
You put in an artifact of power: the golems within that context and you have something very powerful with which to defend your ideology.
What I'm suggesting is simply a shift and a further development of the golem idea, and I hope its not a radical restructuring of the original concept.
The Shift:
Characters are in a highly-ideological religious milieu. Presumably they have a stake in one side or the other or in a completely different alternative. Therefore they have some engagement in the political issues and crises of their day. All they need are the instruments of power. Thus the relationship shifts from: Humanity: How do I respect and treat my golem? to I have firm convictions, and now the power to support and advance them: how far am I willing to go for my cause? The focus then shifts from the relationship between the character and their golem, to the character and their beliefs, with the golem being the asset that elevates them to a position where their choices have some meaning and significance (and thus the potential for tragedy as well).
Which, to me, seems to fit neatly with the original concept under the Dominion jihad thread and his quote of: "political intrigue, forbidden love, revenge, and the quest for salvation".
Further Development:
I think that thematically the Golems are a little underdeveloped and not quite contextualized within their historical context: Why were they built? Why have the survived? Why are they valuable now?
I assume the Ancients were a sophisticated and complex people (or group of aliens), so why would a complex, powerful, and durable artifact like the golems be simple? They may very well have complex needs of some sort: all tied into an AI, or each of them being an AI? Maybe they crave humanity? Maybe they hate humanity? I guess the only thing I'm challenging here is their simplicity. It seems to me like developing them a bit more and giving them some sort of secret can really be effective.
He talks about "salvation" in his post. I'd like to point the original poster towards the Nausicaa series by Miyazaki. There a young girl, Nausicaa, comes into control of a God Warrior, one of the ancient Golem War Machines used to destroy civilization in the Seven Days of Fire. Considered monsters, it turns out that they were originally judges and executioners and they decided to cleanse the world of civilization. Its a neat twist. In this case, the Golems may watch and monitor those they are with, and when their humanity reaches zero they are declared, by their golem, criminal and monstrous and executed by their Golem. So there's a neat twist: the very power of the Golems drives people craving power to them, but the use of that power ultimately endangers its user, and the Golem finds itself trapped in an endless cycle where its power leads to the perpetual downfall of its masters.
Just brainstorming. I quite like a lot of the aspects of the original idea and it seems like it could very well fit Sorcerer, but of course, its ultiimately up to Rex... although I'm now prone to stealing his idea!
On 5/27/2004 at 5:03pm, greyorm wrote:
RE: Will this tweak for Sorcerer work?
I think the main problem is that the golems, as provided by Rex, do not fit the Sorcerer conception of a "demon" -- something inimical to Humanity, though not necessarily opposed, in that it tests and stresses one's Humanity by use.
Now, yes, that works up to a certain point, since if Humanity revolves around how you treat your fellow beings, as tools and game pieces or as fellow sentients, then golems do stress that because you can use them and use them and use them, and they don't complain...but, they are sentient and alive.
The "Need" and "Desire" are problematic, however, since golems, as described do not want or desire anything, and I think giving them more complex "secret desire" undertones takes some of the impact away from their use as icons in the struggle of Humanity.
But, there is a possibility here: Need and Desire don't have to be blatant and overwhelming. Need: to serve; Desire: utilization. Which highlights the central Conflict of Humanity even more.
On 5/27/2004 at 7:14pm, Michael S. Miller wrote:
RE: Will this tweak for Sorcerer work?
greyorm wrote: But, there is a possibility here: Need and Desire don't have to be blatant and overwhelming. Need: to serve; Desire: utilization. Which highlights the central Conflict of Humanity even more.
Hey, Raven, that's brilliant! If Humanity is "not exploiting others, including the Golems," then the golems, being defined in opposition to Humanity, want to be exploited. It's so obvious I never would have seen it.
Play them as obsiquious, self-deprecating, snivellers who somehow have dignity, but continually throw it away. I think this also might work if most golems think that their Masters are so righteous that they strong-arm other NPCs into doing the Master's bidding, leading to Humanity checks. It would be a different vibe, but could work out well.
Of course, it's all up to Rex as to what he wants to do w/ it.
On 5/27/2004 at 7:23pm, Valamir wrote:
RE: Will this tweak for Sorcerer work?
Play them as obsiquious, self-deprecating, snivellers who somehow have dignity, but continually throw it away.
So, like House Elfs then.