Greetings all,

As we near the release of Valherjar I am speaking with more and more retailers and distributors about carrying my product. The problem is, everyone makes ominous references to defining my terms, but no one seems willing to give me a legitimate point of reference as to where is reasonable to start.

After sitting through numerous GTS lectures, searching the forum (and other sources), and asking everyone I came in contact with, I've come up with some kind of basic idea...but I'd love some of the veterans on this board, who are always so marvelously candid, to set me straight.

Also, let me preface this by requesting that we avoid the "do what works for you" answers. I'm trying, as much as possible, to operate on a generally accepted industry model, if such a thing exists, and am more interested in hearing what the average/preferrable concepts would be.

Terms: It seems, in the majority, that the wholesale model to distributors sits at 40% retail. Is this number firm or should I expect it to vary from client to client?

Minimums: Another nebulous point, I've heard stories about minimums being as high as a couple hundred or as few as 5. What's a reasonable place to sit?

Returns: Defects not withstanding, should I incorporate some level of return polilcy for overstock or simply keep the minimums low?

Finally, as always, and opinions, points of wisdom, or other help is gratefully appreciated.

Thank you very much!

Slightly tangental to your actual question Greg, but have you considered using a fulfillment house like Key 20 Direct to handle your relationship with retailers and Distributors? They handle all of my distribution as well as rep the game at Cons and the GTS and the like.

They do take a cut, but its a pretty reasonable one given how much headache they save me and the fact that they have now built a relationship with most of the major distributors.

If you are going to go through distribution rather than direct only, I'd strongly suggest checking with Key 20 (et.al.) first and only try to do it yourself if you really don't like the cost.

Hi Ralph (et al),

I am absolutely intending to use a fulfillment house...assuming one will take me.

Though I am proud of my product, and at least one major distributor agreed at GTS to carry me (it made my show), I have received mixed responses from FHs. One, in fact, told me "I don't care what you're product is, if all you're doing is RPGs I don't want to carry you. No money in it."

Now, of course, that was an individual incident but I'm planning for the worst and hoping for the best. On that note, I would LOVE to hear people's responses about how various FHs have treated them, etc., but since I have to have a talk with the afore mentioned distributor next week I thought I'd square up first and beg someone to house me later. ;)

Thanks for the suggestion, though! I appreciate you bringing it up.

Hello,

All kinds of things to talk about here ...

1. Yes, the standard payment from a distributor is 40% MSRP. This varies considerably based on your relationship with them over time; for instance, the typical payment I receive is is 45%. (Three-tier jargon: you call the other side of percentage "discount," as in, 60% or 55% discount respectively for the last two values I stated.)

2. Fulfillment houses vary extremely widely, especially now. We should discuss this in detail, as things have changed drastically since I last reviewed the situation in April 2003. I have a lot of good things to say about Key 20, but I'd rather not bias the discussion without at least explaining my preferences.

3. I'm not sure what you mean by minimums ... quick clarification?

4. I suggest practicing full return policy. If the retailer can't sell it, then he gives it back to the distributor and gets his money back. If the distributor can't sell it, he gives it back to the publisher and gets his money back. This might strike people as horrific, but think a minute - anything else is basically a license to print and distribute shit. I mean that. You're the publisher and owner. If it doesn't sell, it should be your loss.

Passing on unsaleable shit to others without any recourse for them except to eat it is a remarkably successful tactic in the short term. It is, however, ultimately not about you gaining success for producing and supporting a good game which people play.

That's one of those ethical-choices things.

Best,
Ron

You can check out my website and follow the business at the bottom (or go straight to it at http://www.paxdraconis.com/technicraft). Normally it'd be at technicraft.com, but I'm having issues with my web host... don't get me started.

Anyway, if you go into the catalogue section, you'll find a PDF order sheet which specifies all of my standard terms, which are based on asking other people what's standard, with a few little tweaks for my own needs (like a lower-than-average minimum purchase).

As for going with a fulfillment house... I'm not convinced it's a good idea. My games are only carried by distributors after much blood, sweat, tears and pestering. A fulfillment house won't do that for you, not with the tenacity you'll do it for yourself... and if you have to do all the work to get carried anyway, you're just paying for overpriced shipping.

Be prepared to send lots of free copies, and continue to follow up with the buyer until they finally cave in and buy your stuff. In one case, it took six months of followups after a buyer promised to buy something before they actually did. (Oh, and it doesn't hurt to get your fans to pester stores so that they can in turn pester the distributors from another angle). Plus, once you get that sale, you have now established a direct contact with the buyer and know the person by name.

The fulfillment houses make the argument that distributors can buy your games more easily through them without having to make an expensive committment, etc. But I just don't see any distributors in the industry saying "Oh, look, another RPG. Let's buy a few copies to see what happens." If they're not interested enough to buy 30 copies (a typical minimum order, and more than my minimum), then I doubt they're interested enough to buy 3. And... if they don't have to make an investment in buying the games, they don't have to make an investment in selling them either.

Anyway, this is mostly based on my gut feelings about the biz (and about human nature), and it seems largely true. However, my experiences with fulfillment houses are limited to Wizard's Attic - they shut down before they carried any of our products, but had us on their lists long enough to make sure that all of the distributors have incorrect information about our products and company info. So, yeah, I'm a little unimpressed.

Hi Greg,

Can you give us a little background on the support of your game to date? What's the format? How long has it been in print? What kind of con exposure have you given it? Are you already supporting your own direct sales (from your website)? Are you actively promoting the game on the web?

Distribution is nice, but for me, it's a secondary point.

-Luke

Wow! Lots of great replies. Thanks to all.

Moving on to specific responses...

Ron: Thanks for the insight, and I would love to shift the focus to your current thoughts on fulfillment houses. In response to my last question, minimums, I meant in regard to minimum orders from distributors and the terms there of (i.e. to qualify for free shipping, etc.).

Luke: This is my first game, and first foray into this business, and it will be available for retail at the begining of november. It's a hardcover 288pg rpg. We are currently developing an elaborate website that will offer more support than most I've seen, we have good marketing in place and will be expanding it as the months progress, and generally seem poised to make a good launch impact.

Justin: Thanks for your input and linking to your terms. It was very, very helpful. My only thought, in terms of the limited promotion a fulfillment house brings, is that while it may be expensive, it gives me three significant resources.

The first, and most simple, is some smidgen of additional marketing. While, yes, they won't be actively advertising my game, they will be supplementing my efforts. It's probably not worth the money, per se, but it's extra exposure.

Secondly, and most importantly to me, is that it will give me an extra little it of respectibility. It's one easier step towards the distributors carrying me.

Finally, they'll wearhouse and fill orders for me. As a guy looking at storing my 2000 books in my garage, and spending X hours of every day trying to fill orders and run to the post office, the opportunity cost seems reasonable.

But that's just my thoughts...I would love to hear from you all on the idea of fulfillment.

Thanks!

Greg, do you have a licensing deal or anything? Have you already gone to press?

If I were you, and I wasn't publishing a big name licensed material I wouldn't got to press at this juncture. I'd use POD and PDF to get your game out into the market and tested.

2000 books is A LOT. You're looking at 3 years of stock if you're game's hot. If it's not... that's a lot of dead trees.

Can you tell us your reasoning behind your decision to jump in neck deep?

-L

I think 2000 books is a huge mistake unless you have a licensed property that you can be reasonably certain will attract that kind of existing fan base interest.

From an accounting perspective consider all that money you spend on your printing to be NON deductable. Printing is not an expense. Printing merely transforms 1 asset (Cash) into another asset (inventory). Since for accounting purposes $8000 spent on books means the books are worth $8000 you haven't incurred any expenses at all.

Until you sell them...or mulch them and write them off as a loss...which is typically what happens to small press guys who print thousands of copies.

For reference my second print run of Universalis was 750 copies and after just about 2 full years I'm starting to run low on stock. And I consider the game to be fairly successful...and profitable. It also wasn't 250 pages long which made 750 copies reasonably cheap.

Beware the lure of low per unit costs its a trap.

Hello,

For some perspective, Sorcerer's first printing in July 2001: 1250 copies. Sorcerer's second printing: 1000 copies. It seems to sell through in about a year and a half; the second printing is moving steadily as the first and if anything, a little faster.

Also, have you decided on a printer yet? Have you considered the difference carefully between traditional and POD? Are you getting hardback only because retailer solemnly assured you you must? (Note: I publish a hardback game; there are reasons to do it, but do you know what they are?)

Would you like to discuss bidding for printers and how it's effectively done?

Best,
Ron

Man, but this is getting interesting. Scary, but interesting.

Alright, a bit of background on myself and Valherjar. When I first came up with the questionable idea of entering the RPG industry, I began in what I thought was the most logical place: by ghosting the GAMA Trade Show and sucking up all the knowledge I could. Coming from a strong business, but game unrelated, background I felt that looking at the "pros" and then modeling a plan of attack based around their success and failure seemed the best way to go. As a rational and logical businessman I felt you could apply many of the universal concepts of marketing and development to this industry. Boy, has that turned out to be wrong. ;)

Unfortunately or fortunately, depending on how you look at it, this led me to a number of courses of action that now predicate what I -think- is in my best interest. In that time I paid a lot of artists a lot of money, invested more than I'd care to recall on research and development (including going to both GTS and Origins with a booth exclusively to do market research), and did my best to produce a product that I thought could slug it out with the big boys, all the while attempting to maintain my distance from my perceived failures of the industry.

The result of all this, for better or worse, is where I now sit. I have a ton of great art, a whole lot of text, and a game that has received incredible retailer and distributor response. But, of course, that doesn't necessarily equal sales.

My estimates on printing were based on what I was told at the time, by the GTS pannels as a whole two years in a row, which was that any half way decent game would sell 2000 copies in the current market, especially if it had high production values and a decent marketing campaign. So all of my subsequent plans were based on that turnaround. All of which, needless to say, the Forge seems to make me regret.

Where I proceed from here, then, is somewhat of a new question. Do I go to print? If so, at what quantity? PDF publishing seems like an intriguing concept, but I have already spent a ton of cash on mainstream marketing, and so feel like I would lose all of that by not reaching out to retailers in at least some conventional way.

But, that doesn't mean y'all think it's the best idea. I would love to hear what the Forge thinks collectively, even if I won't like it, as it's not too late to save me from the biggest potential mistake of going to print. As always, any feedback, suggestions, or ideas of where to go are appreciated.

Most distributors will not bother with you if you don't have a complete product line-up. I would say you'd need to print at least one book every other month to get their attention. Otherwise, they won't likely care about your stuff, especially the way the market chews and spits out RPGs today. A lot of fulfillment houses will not take you either, if you don't have at least a few products coming out each year. Why should they bother setting up an account for you when you're not going to make them money?

If you're going it alone, I wouldn't print 2,000 copies unless you're willing to sit on the stock for a few years and you know you've got a great product AND you're willing to promote the hell out of it. Something like 500 or less sounds more reasonable for you. It all depends on what your game plan is and how long you're willing to sit with the stock though.

After you get your 40%, you're going to have to pay your fullfilment house at least 15%-18% of that, then you've got to pay for shipping costs, warehousing, packing fees, convention expenses, and so on. Unless you sell in the thousands, you're not likely to break even. Instead, you'll likely get bled dry left and right even if you sell well.

The 40% rate is alright for big print runs, but not so for small print runs. I don't know what your product is, but it sounds like a new setting and that's, without doubt, a small print run.

The RPG industry is a really tough business, the way the numbers work out. But there is hope at the end of the tunnel...

I'll have a big announcement soon about a new approach that should change the business model for independent publishers....

By the way, if you have a presentable PDF of your manuscript and you think it kicks ass, PM me and I'll take a look at it for you. I just might be able to help you get started and do it profitably, too.

Hello,

Ed, most of the active Forge members who publish have rejected the entire model that you describe, and profited greatly by doing so.

What you describe is the party line, what a publisher learns by going to GAMA and hearing what retailers and distributors have to say. Some of it is valid from their point of view, and some of it is leftover rhetoric that never worked anyway. I suggest taking an extremely skeptical approach, which it sounds like you've done.

Best,
Ron

GregS wrote: Do I go to print? If so, at what quantity? PDF publishing seems like an intriguing concept, but I have already spent a ton of cash on mainstream marketing, and so feel like I would lose all of that by not reaching out to retailers in at least some conventional way.

I don't think POD is right for you - you've invested heavily in production values, and so skimping on printing expenses will waste that investment since the print quality of POD/digital press can't yet match traditional presses.

One idea about print run: find a printer who will separate the setup costs from the incremental costs, keep the setup after the initial printing, and then sell you more books later at just the incremental cost. Then print the minimum # of copies called for by your distributor/consolidator/direct sales projections. This way you don't get stuck warehousing too many and are set up to meet demand later by printing more at just the incremental costs.

abzu wrote:
You can quite feasibly do a BW "art light" version of your piece in POD, get people interested, get the bugs worked out, and then turn around a year or two later and knock our socks off with a big glossy book...
A lot of your perceptions of the game are going to change as it meets the public. I suspect, and I could be wrong, that you'll actually want to revise a lot of it. Ron hit the streets with a MS word printout of Sorcerer and made everyone he met sit down and play the damn thing.

abzu wrote:
Please tell me where you have found this magic traditional press, Tav! This is the impossible dream for press work. Typically, minimum set up is 1000 pieces, and even then most printers won't do that little. I've found that the per unit cost for printing 500 pieces on press is just too high.
-L

The incremental cost doesn't change whether you're doing 500 copies or 50,000; the higher unit cost of 500 on press is just due to the fact that the (setup + incremental) cost is divided over 500 instead of 50,000

abzu wrote:
I could be wrong, but I don't think this is true. The cost of paper and ink for each book drops the larger the print run. Per unit for 10,000 is lower than per unit for 1,000. Not only because of the set up cost, but because materials (and time) can be booked in bulk. It's the standard economy of scale.

Actually, at least from the printers I spoke to about Twlight, that sounds about right. The cost for materials is the same, the cost for setting up is the same, its just cheaper because its spread out.

IE (this is in no way representative) Setup costs: $50 (materials & ink for setting printers, prepping machines, time etc), cost per unit materials: $1
An order for 5 units costs $55, $11 per unit, expensive. However, order 50 units = $100, $2 per unit, cheap.

According to the printers I spoke to, its quite a number of sheets they run for the intial setting of the presses, making sure all the alignments and everthing are correct.
Materials and everything for a regular printer are bought in bulk on a regular basis anyway, so they're getting a good deal as it is. They'll go through as much material for product for three runs of 100 as they would for one run of 300, minus of course the materials run for setups, which is covered by the setup charge.

There are a couple things that need clarified. There are two kinds of "set up."

Prepress Set Up- which is everything involved in taking the job on disk all the way up to just before the press is turned on. This value is constant. Once it's done, so long as there are no changes, you shouldn't be charged that again on a reorder.

Press Set Up- this is more than just turning on the press. It's got everything from hanging the plates, registering color, and getting consistant color. This isn't a set price. Technically, color will go out of gamut in a matter of minutes, depending on humidity, paper stock, and what not. So each time the job is put on the press, it's a struggle to get it to a point where it's fine to run.

Run-Time- once all the press set up is done, the difference in time to run a book between 100 books and 1000 books is quite small. For instance, on a single page flyer the difference between 100 flyers and 1000 flyers is about 20 minutes. It's just a matter of letting the machine chug along a little while longer. All the hard work is done.

Therefore, on a traditional print run, the more copies you get, the less expensive per piece it is. If you want to break the prepress out of the equation, it would still be less expensive per piece because you still have Press Setup to contend with. Now you will eventually bottom out the scale, but that wouldn't be till you get in the astronomical numbers.

Now POD is similar, 'cept different. Pricing often mocks traditional pricing, but you reach the bottom end of that scale pretty quickly.

Tav_Behemoth wrote:
So if you can invest the setup costs now and keep the setup for later, and if you can warehouse cheaply (in your garage?), and if you are in fact ready to bring your game to market without further development, and if you have solid reasons to believe it might someday sell upwards of 1,000 copies -- I think traditional print is a Good Idea.

Firstly, allow me to say thank you immeasurably to everyone who chimed in. It has been wonderful getting the numerous perspectives and I appreciate everyone's time and response.

As for how it effects me...I as of yet have no idea. There was so much information presented, and it is so divergent from my anticipated designs, that I really don't know what I'm going to do yet.

But I wanted to take the time to say thanks now...and invite people to keep the thoughts coming.

Greg

Hi, Greg.

I noticed that you cited the number of selling 2000 copies through distribution as coming from a number of different industry sources. Some people keep giving out the same advice for year after year, even when conditions change. It becomes a habit.

For another industry perspective, check out this brief exchange I had with Sandy Antunes of RPG.net. He claims that books that would sell 2000 copies through distribution a year or two ago are lucky to sell 200 nowadays. While you're over there, read as much of Sandy's Soapbox column as you can stand. He's got a keen insight into the "industry" side of the RPG scene.

Well, I'd say 200 copies through distribution is a bit on the low side, but I guess it depends on how well known your company is and what the actual product is. The fact is the first 200 copies are the easiest to sell. Why sell them at a 40% (or less) rate?

What I've been able to figure (from observation and talking to people who should know), tells me that it's not a good idea for a new company to release their product into distribution immediately.

The distribution system is geared to fast turnover. 60 to 90 days average life expectancy for a game product, then the next book needs to be in place to boost plummeting sales of the first, starting the infamous "supplement treadmill" to keep the company on the distributor's radar. (And yes, I've had it confirmed by reps from both a major distributor and a fullfillment house, sales for a new release non-d20 product was 300 to 500 and falling, as of several months ago. 200 may be very realistic by now. D20 used to do far better, but that's been dropping off in numbers very quickly as well)

An unknown game company (even if they manage to get a product into distribution at all) is going to have it burn through that short sales cycle without selling well simply because no one will have heard of it. It might be out there, it might get bought by the distributors, and it might even make it to a handful of stores... but for the most part it's going to sit there. Even if someone does happen to hear of it, if they go looking for information there will be no review, no forum discussion about it, no presence beyond the company website, and they won't be reassured. By the time that sort of presence does develop, the game may have already been dropped from distribution for low sales.

I believe (and yes my belief is untested except by observation) that it would be much better to get the product out, promote it, circulate it at some cons, give time for some reviews to get done, for people to play the game and talk about the game... and then hit distribution with an established product that is already a demonstrated success. Make distribution a step up to wider accessibility of the game, not the first step.

PDF is a good example. Sales of PDF products do not generally drop off, they grow over time. Backlist sales of pdf products from a couple years ago still seem to move. Self-promoted POD should be able to work the same (though apparently it has been a bust at RPGnow - primarily due to lack of interest from the publishers I suspect).

Unfortunately there aren't exactly a ton of people doing POD print products with on-line promotion through their own storefronts to gather data from (I can't for the life of me figure out why - it seems like a near perfect solution to me - all the low risk and benefits of PDF publishing with a hard copy product), but what I have heard sounds pretty optimistic. It's certainly the way I plan to go.

That's my two cents worth.

Hi Calvin,

As the fellow pioneered the whole idea of selling an RPG on-line as a PDF product (yeah, it was me), and who then later went to print, I can only agree with you 100%. There is literally no downside to this strategy, as a strategy per se.

After that point, one can do any number of things. I prefer to discontinue the PDF once the print version is available. Others prefer to sell finalized PDF and print versions concurrently, and all reports from that angle seem strong. My real point is that print is only an option, not a necessary obligation, and that distribution through the three-tier is only an option within the first.

Back to distribution specifically, here are some useful threads for folks to check out. Please note the dates.
PDF publishing
Price setting in the gaming world
Successful RPG line
Channel conflict with distribution-retail-manufacturers

Best,
Ron

Hey, Ron.

Interesting to hear you where a PDF pioneer. Doesn't surprise me somehow...

Anyway, I agree with you that print isn't a requirement. I do, however, think that it can be a huge benefit for some games, particularly the ones with a larger book.

Everything I've seen while watching the PDF side of things tells me that PDF only does really well for relatively small products. Larger products (by which I mean things much over 100 to 150 pages or so) don't generally do nearly as well. It seems like the smaller the PDF, the better it sells. The reason? IMO, most people want to print them out & printing ain't cheap.

Also, the PDF industry looses many customers who might buy a book if it was available in hard copy (or so those who don't buy PDFs claim at least), but who aren't interested at all in bringing a laptop to the game or printing things out.

The solution to both of those drawbacks is a print copy of the book. That means an investment in an expensive traditional print run, or POD. Tough decision there, huh?

The downside to POD is that it has gained a bad rep. I think the rep is undeserved (these days at least) but it is there. Some people think POD means low quality. At that point I have to ask, "If you're worried about that, why tell them it''s POD? Get short POD print runs, warehouse them in your attic, and sell them from your website as print books." I bet no one would even know the difference if you didn't tell them. And secretly, I suspect most of the people looking for anything besides the latest big-name d20 supplement couldn't care less how the book was printed.

Anyway, what I'm getting at here is that, with POD where it is today... there's really no good reason not to go to print. Distribution on the other hand, there's a lot of reasons to not go there. Fortunately the one doesn't have to involve the other.

Hello,

Calvin, I think you're on the right track, but working with too few categories and options. Let's break it down into completely independent binary options. Again, these are not nested, but available in any combination

1: free pre-commercial copy, or not

2: PDF (or other electronic) version, or not

3: print version, or not

As you rightly point out, game-store distribution via the three-tier is a subset of #3, so I'm not including it here.

Back to #1-3, any combination is possible.

- Trollbabe = #1 no, #2 yes, #3 no

- Scarlet Wake = #1 yes, #2 yes, #3 unknown

- My Life with Master = #1 no, #2 yes, #3 yes

- Sorcerer (currently) = #1 no, #2 no, #3 yes

Nuances
Add in the possibility of changing as you go, as with Elfs going to print or many older games now being available only as PDFs.

I'm not including quick-start versions as #1; I'm talking about the full game. Just doin' this to avoid grayness.

Since print can be either traditional or POD, that adds a little set of nuances to #3 as well.

Anyway, my point is that it's not a matter of either-or. All sorts of combinations and changes in them can be set up as a business model. I suggest that publishers pick low-risk combinations to start, then change the policy to other combinations only when they seem financially viable.

The days of "write it, print it, look around desperately for help in getting it distributed" are over. Anyone who goes into RPG publishing with that model in mind is a decade out of touch and guaranteed to take a bath, and not the good kind either.

Best,
Ron

Michael S. Miller wrote: I noticed that you cited the number of selling 2000 copies through distribution as coming from a number of different industry sources. Some people keep giving out the same advice for year after year, even when conditions change. It becomes a habit.

Ah, the synchranicity of life...And my horrible, horrible spelling...

Coincidentally, I just had a conversation with a very supportive distributor about this same concept. Essentially, I asked if he felt it would hurt my chances of distribution if my launch was a small, subtle event that got the game out more to generate buzz than to make sales, including through PDF forms. I was concerned he would frown on the idea of losing out on the "first run" sales numbers.

He said he had no problem with it. And while he was pretty sure some of the other distributors might be pissed, he said he thought it was a great idea for getting the kinks out and generating long term sales. He also noted, in addendum to an early post, that most distributors are now down to a 30 day, rather than a 60 or 90 day, inventory turn around. In other words, if it doesn't sell in the first month they're done with it.

It was a LOT more incentive to explore alternative options first.

Ron,

I wouldn't say I'm working with too few options, so much as pushing one that I see too little use of and that I believe has more potential than most people give it.

I think POD services like lulu.com are "God's gift" to smaller game publishers (and bigger publishers to a lesser extent*). Now anyone can put a book into print (real hard-copy hold-it-in-your-hands print) with zero risk (or at least no more risk than PDF). I maintain that with such services available, it is folly to offer any game product of substantial size (obviously print doesn't make a lot of sense for the 8-page supplements & throw-away adventures which are so well suited to PDF). If you have a PDF, with only a minimal amount of additional effort, you can also have a print book. I find it odd that anyone would choose not to.

*As far as older products going to PDF when they go out of print, I don't see why they should ever have to go out of print. If all of those products were made available as POD rather than just PDF, then customers could purchase hard copies of the books forever without costing the publisher any substantial on-going production costs at all. It would provide a broader service to the customers, without additional expense to the publisher, and might well result in additional sales of the product over just offering PDF.

But you make a very good point about different options being effective for different stages (and combinations of different options being possible).

I would still recommend POD printing for any final-release product, though not necessarily for a pre-final edition. The ability to make changes on the fly and let people download updated PDFs as the game evolves to a final form is handy. It also lets you get feedback on the inevitable mistakes that can creep in, minimizing the errata necessary after printing.

I'm actually using this method myself.

Right now I have a preliminary (and setting light) playtest edition available for free (in PDF),which I plan to use for getting feedback and building interest in the game (I haven't promoted it heavily yet as I want to get some decent playtime under my own belt first before I push it too hard). I used lulu.com to get a personal copy of the playtest edition for my own use, but I think the game is too preliminary at this point to be charging other people for a POD copy.

After it is complete and tested, and I'm ready to go to the final version, I want to offer both PDF and POD print as a combination product. So when someone buys the print book, they get the PDF for free as an immediate download. This will give them the instant gratification of getting something right at purchase and will allow them to take advantage of the benefits of PDF (printing portions for reference, etc) along with their printed copy.

So I agree, combinations can be good. Actually I think outside of my personal crusade for POD, we're pretty much in agreement on all your other points.

Hi Guys,

I might as well pull up a chair to this conversation and say hello.

My own project is StoryART Games. www.storyartgames.com

We are just about to come up on our last month of our six month ramp up for our first .pdf book lines to be released and mid-September is on my calendar as the start date for fact finding about print. Print runs, distribution and consolidators.

I too had the experience of being told by a highly respected consolidator that they were absolutely not interested in anything RPG related because of low sales. That was a little bit disappointing. But then I just kept chugging down the street to another few shops and received some pretty positive support.

I am pretty much the newbie guy on the block in all this so I am reading everything I can and talking to everyone I can about how to make first the .pdf business and then later in 2005 the print business work.

The good news (for me) is that I have a solid two year run ahead of me with StoryART. I have a nice budget, investor capital I haven't touched, a good / sizeable income from the first business I started about six years ago that is doing well, etc... So while I'm not Donald Trump by any stretch of the imagination I'm not between the same rock and a hard place as most guys starting out. I have a 20 year career, retirement and my own first business under my belt at this point in life so I figure I've paid my early dues.

Anyway I would very much appreciate some feedback on the website I have up and on our downloads we've posted for our up and coming products. They are free in the downloads section.

I think we've got a pretty groovy run ahead of us but I've found that it's always a good idea to pull up a chair at the bar with the salty old guys that have been on the mean streets for a while and listen to what they have to say about it.

Anyway this has been one of the better threads I've seen posted anywhere online. Just wanted to introduce myself and say that its really nice to read over all of your comments. They have been very interesting.

Edward Kann
StoryART Games