Gentlemen (and ladies, if reading),

Let's get into the earlier defined Clusters 2 and 3:

2. Maintaining a Balance, Making Hard Choices, FastHard/SlowSteady. As far as I can tell, these are intimately related - but I may be wrong, you/we may have different take on this. What Balance needs to be maintained for the Archivists? Why? Why do hard choices need to be made? Is FastHard/Slowsteady the primary description of the balance/conflict of choices, or is there more?

Note that other issues may be related to this - Burnout, Personal sacrifice, Multiple Personality disorder - but they seem to be extreme results of things going wrong on the balance end, which is why they are point 3:

3. When things go bad - Burnout, Personal sacrifice, Multiple Personality disorder. Over here we can go into more detail.

The more general points: Human Nature, Abstraction, Earth-centric and High Tech are things I would like you to keep in mind while we're forming the definitions of these three clusters - as color, or backdrop, if you would.

I'm a little confused. Are we to propose clusters 2 and 3 in the light of our own suggestions for cluster 1? Should we not make a decision on cluster 1 first?

Cluster 1 is concluded - see my summary in the previous thread and the final responses.

Is there anything left unfinished? Would you like me to summarize it all again? Put it up on a website somewhere? (Actually, that may be a good idea anyway).

Balance.

The Archivists must balance two intimately related things: The Archivist's sense of self and the Archivist's sense of Humanity. These two elements balance against one another. On the one hand the Archivist, as something specifically not-human, must experience humanity through the host. On the other hand the Archivist risks getting too "involved" and becoming unable to recover himself from the Host.

This is not necessarily a fast/slow decision, but it is a balance to maintain. I would consider a mechanic as follows: There is a sliding scale with Humanity at one end and something else ("Enlightenment" perhaps?) at the other. Certain actions cause shifts toward one end or the other. If you reach either end then something big happens (perhaps something as major as reaching 0 Humanity in Sorcerer, loss of Player Character). This mechanic is strengthened when the actions that cause shifts on this continuum are chosen instead of forced. You get this difficult decision: "If i choose to do X i risk losing the character, but if i do not choose to do X there will be a horrible consequence Y."

I hope that is relatively coherent. There are some other ideas concerning balance, but that one jumped out in front of me.

Thomas

Thomas, I like the sliding scale mechanic, but how would we handle situations where the Archivist is advancing both human and Archvisist values?

Actually, this got me thinking that a neat way to construct the character is to say that every trait is a sliding scale between two opposites. For example, say everything is rated 1-10. If a human's X trait is a 7, then the Archivist's anti-X trait is 3. Thus, the Archivists might need to exert more anti-X at some point, which he is free to do, at the cost of the human's X trait. This is also kinda neat because it means that the Archivist has the most potenial power in an area where its host is weak.

I've got some more to say about clusters 2 and 3, but I'm at work right now, so I don't have the time to address them fully. I'll post more later today.

OK, here goes. I've written this up as a 'blurb', I hope this serves to illustrate some of the key themes for 2 and 3.

***

This game is primarily about preserving the future of the human race... except most of the humans don't know it.

As an Archivist, you 'possess' the bodies of human beings throughout history and try to guide them towards the right choices, choices that will ensure that the human race has a glorious future amongst the stars. You use your powers to protect them, inspire them, persuade them.

Why do you do this? Because you are the future of the human race - for as long as you keep winning this war....

***

But it isn't going to be easy...

For one thing, taking a Host has consequences. Your fleshly ancestors are too fragile a vessel for your powers - continued exposure to an Archivist can drive a human mad, or riddle them with radiation sickness.

Using your powers has consequences too. The Nemesis are out there, watching for signs of Archivist activity, waiting for an opportunity to pounce and remove another player from the Great Game.

But the biggest danger of all is from yourself. After so long without a body of your own, the demands of the flesh are uniquely addictive. And if you want to, you can Fade into the background, living another person's life through their eyes, their actions, their hopes and fears.

You may even Fade so far, that you can't get back out. Even if you wanted to...

Andrew Morris wrote: Thomas, I like the sliding scale mechanic, but how would we handle situations where the Archivist is advancing both human and Archvisist values?

Oh my... so an Archivist on the verge of fading into humanity, who wakes up every morning with a hang-over to drag himself to a dead-end job in the cubicles, would be as powerful (in his way) as a post-human Archivist without the need for air or food or companionship, who uses his body as little more than a conduit to channel unearthly power.

And they're supposedly on the same team. What on (or off of) earth would they have to talk about? I love it!

(1) General Comments:

I emphatically agree that there needs to be a temptation for Archivists to lose their detachment and "go human" (isn't this what Wings of Desire was about? I saw it years and years ago). I think this is the flip-side of "Self-Sacrifice": Whatever Archivists gained when they became Archivists, they lost much of their humanity, and they must constantly struggle to reaffirm that initial self-sacrifice, moment by moment, against the temptation to forget the Quest to solve the Question and to simply enjoy the human sensations of the Host.

So the first Balance is within the Archivist, between his/her/its "angelic" status and the desire to return to humanity. The second balance is between Archivist and Host: There is a Hard Choice between simply pushing the host too Fast and Hard, accomplishing the mission at terrible risk to the host's life and sanity, versus going too Slow and Steady, protecting the individual host but risking the human race as a whole if you fail the mission. Burnout and Multiple Personality Disorder should threaten both the Host and the Archivist if things go wrong.


(2) Mechanics Ideas

Andrew Morris wrote: Thomas, I like the sliding scale mechanic, but how would we handle situations where the Archivist is advancing both human and Archvisist values? Actually, this got me thinking that a neat way to construct the character is to say that every trait is a sliding scale between two opposites.

Whoa, meaty!

I love what I'm seeing. I will post my take on Clusters 2 and 3 tomorrow morning my time. I would make a suggestion on when we wrap up this thread, but for now, let's see if we can get a concensus or some interesting discussion. I hope to have some time to slap everything onto a webpage this week, thursday at earliest though.

Rock on!

Since we are aiming more at the player being both the Archivist and the Host, we need to find a good mechanic for the Schizphrenic nature of this new character type. I am not against the sliding scale mentioned befor, but what if the only things we kept track of were the Host traits and the archivist only has a limited pool of control? We have often defined the archivists in incorpreal terms and I really like the dichotomy of having diferent mechinisms for the diferent parts of the character.

With that said, what if the Host were defined in some way with a mixture of traits and some completely different system by which the Archivists can manage the Host. I don't have a system but something where the costs would be different to the different parts of the character so that there would be good reasons to do things the Host wants or needs to do instead of what the Archivist wants/needs.

I think that the archivist is the protagonist in these stories so I want the host to be at some remove from the direct control of the player. I will be up front I haven't a clue as to how this could work. I am currently fighting in a different system where the players control of the game is filtered through a group of people he has not direct control over and I don't think that it is entirely satisfactory. Maybe this will encourage one of you to find an answer to this.

Sorry, I can feel whatI mean but am having a terrible time putting it into words.

Possible ways to keep Hosts out of the Archivist's control:

1. A different player handles the host.
2. The GM handles the host.
3. The System (mechanics) handles the host.

There are quite possibly more, but thos spring to mind. I especially like the third option assuming that we can put together some good mechanics for it.

Thomas

Cluster 2 -- Balance and Hard Choices

Okay, so I think we're all on board that there must be a conscious decision on the part of the Archivist as to how much power he wants to use, knowing that it will damage the host. How about adding in another scale? Say in character/out of character to the power/safety balance. I'll give some examples, using a soldier host.

1. The Archivist enhances the host's combat abilities over time, granting him a powerful "danger sense" and boosted physical abilities. This would have no negative side affects, because it is both limited and in character. Even the host might not be aware of anything unusual.

2. The Archivist suddenly boosts the host's strength to the point where he tears the door off an enemy vehicle to get at the soldiers inside. This would have minor negative side affects, because it is powerful, but in character for the host.

3. The Archivist enhances the host's knowledge of particle physics over the course of years. This would have minor negative side affects, because it is limited, but out of character for the host.

4. The Archivist suddenly manifest telekinesis and mind control powers in his host. This would have major negative side affects, because it is powerful and out of character for the host.

Another random idea -- what if Archivists had to use their powers to a certain degree in order to maintain their self-identity? So even good Archivists would be doing damage to their hosts simply by their presence. This is hinted at (at least it seemed so to me) by Sydney's last post.

Cluster 3 -- When Things Go Bad

Oh, boy...there's lots of nasty stuff we can come up with for this section. I'm not feeling the creative juices right now, though, so I'll just toss off a few of the obvious ideas.

Burnout. Sounds cool, but what the heck does it really mean? I've got two takes on this. First, burnout could be that Archivist loses the ability to possess hosts. This is pretty major, unless there is some way that it can be "healed" or fixed. Second, burnout might mean that the Archivist loses the ability to switch or leave hosts -- basically, he's stuck where he is. This could mean either he's just out of play until the host dies, or maybe he's now part of the host, and faces mortality once again himself.

Multiple Personalities. I like Sydney's ideas about traits switching between host and Archivist. I'd suggest that they "rub off" instead of outright switching. That is, one gains a weaker version of the other's trait. I think this is easier to handle in game, and is more dramatic. Plus, since Archivists are immortal, the odds say that eventually they'll end up a human stuck in an Archivist's non-body, making them pretty much useless for....well, anything.

Other Stuff

Global Scale Issues. Hmmm. Honestly, I wasn't crazy about this idea when I first read it, but then it got me thinking. Maybe having some sort of cultural personalies would be a neat thing. Just think about it -- throughout history, all the big miraculous stuff happend way back in the past, when that sort of stuff was pretty much accepted by most folks as entirely possible. Further on in time, we get stories of epic heroes changing the world. As we move into more modern times, it shifts to the actions of governments and religions, along with grand conspiracy theories. So basically, if an Archivist takes over a caveman and uses his laser-beam eyes and super strength to force the tribe to move to a new location, well, no big deal, right? Obviously, Og here was touched by the great spirits. Nothing out of the ordinary. In modern times, this wouldn't go over well...both the host and the rest of the folks would panic at seeing this. But the actions of a world-spanning conspiracy trying to insert mind-control drugs in Tylenol? Heck, who'd even blink an eye at that today?

Thor and Thomas make good points about the hosts, but I'm not convinced there's anything wrong with the player controlling both host and Archivist. I'll have to think it over some more.

Andrew Morris wrote: Thor and Thomas make good points about the hosts, but I'm not convinced there's anything wrong with the player controlling both host and Archivist. I'll have to think it over some more.

My gut instinct is to say that Archivists don't have to struggle with their host. I think there's more of a moral impact when the host is essentially helpless. There's a big difference between doing something nasty to someone who has a chance to resist it and doing to the same to someone with no defense at all.

I would prefer for their not to be an active, or conscious struggle. Maybe there's initial unconscious resistance (immune system), but once you're in, you're in.

Basically, the player IS the archivist, or the archivist-host symbiosis, but the archivist is always the driving force (whether in posession or not).

Here's a slightly different take on the 'Archivist vs. Host' control issues - although it is inspired by some of Sydney's earlier mechanic suggestions.

(Edit: I started this before I noticed your last post, Tobias.)

Once the Archivist possesses a Host, it becomes meaningless to talk about two separate identities.

Instead there is a single identity, with conflicting personality Traits - if the original Archivist had Determined, Studious and Absent-Minded Traits, and the Host had Light-Hearted, Lecherous and Vengeful Traits, you'd end up with a single Determined, Studious, Absent-Minded, Light-Hearted, Lecherous, Vengeful individual.

Who is going to end up rather confused.

I think this is where the 'multiple personalities' part comes in - it's only meaningful if there is a single entity suffering from the condition.

I would say that this individuals moral choices would shape how 'human' or 'Archivist' their outlook became.

If, as the character above, I indulge the Light-Hearted, Lecherous and Vengeful 'side' of my personality, I'm going to be very much in control of my 'Host' skills, but my Inner Archivist is going to be heading for serious Fade (trapped in host, cannot act) issues. This also neatly represents an Archivist's addiction to human emotions.

However, if I act more in accordance with my Determined, Studious and Absent Minded traits, this is equivalent of the Archivist personality asserting control - more access to mind powers and 'energetic' bonuses, but more damage to the Host.

In effect, at any point the character has accesss to all of the Host and Archivist skills, but suffers a penalty (or activation cost) depending on how much that side of their personality has been 'submerged' (perhaps this could be described as Latency.)

Doug Ruff wrote: I think this is where the 'multiple personalities' part comes in - it's only meaningful if there is a single entity suffering from the condition.

Ok then, ditching the idea of struggling for control... Moving on to balancing power usage. Someone earlier suggested that the host gets some abilities and then the Archivist gets abilities which they can use to give bonuses to the Hosts actions. I would suggest that the Archivist does not have an abilities list. Instead the Archivist can simply do pretty much anything. So if the Host uses its "athletic" ability to jump off a building the Archivist could boost that ability by an unlimited amount. To generate balance some sort of horrible consequence should arise from overusing these powers.

Burnout: i was thinking... what if this were not burnout as i originally envisioned it (destruction of the mind, creation of a living vegetable, etc.) but instead is a burnout of personality. Each time the Archivist has the host act against his original personality, part of that personality is destroyed. It is not replaced. So Archivists risk the creation of monsters. People with no morality or emotion. I think that that is kind of cool...

Thomas

Thomas, I like your take on burnout. It's creative and somewhat disturbing. As to the Archivists not having a skill set and just saying they are pretty much free to do whatever they want, so long as they pay for it -- I was thinking pretty much along those lines, myself. I thought that others in the group wanted a lower power level, though, so I'd like to hear what everyone else thinks on this point.

So much good stuff! [rolls up sleeves, rubs hands together]


(1) Who plays the Host?

Doug Ruff wrote: Once the Archivist possesses a Host, it becomes meaningless to talk about two separate identities. Instead there is a single identity, with conflicting personality Traits...

Andrew Morris wrote: How about adding in another scale? Say in character/out of character to the power/safety balance....

Andrew Morris wrote: Obviously, Og here was touched by the great spirits...

Thomas wrote: I would suggest that the Archivist does not have an abilities list.

Thomas wrote: .... a burnout of personality. Each time the Archivist has the host act against his original personality, part of that personality is destroyed. It is not replaced. So Archivists risk the creation of monsters. People with no morality or emotion.

Doug Ruff wrote: ... my Inner Archivist is going to be heading for serious Fade (trapped in host, cannot act)

{Double-post again, darn it}

Sydney Freedberg wrote: If every Archivist is like every other in game-mechanical terms, it's hard for players to feel ownership.

LordSmerf wrote:

Sydney Freedberg wrote: If every Archivist is like every other in game-mechanical terms, it's hard for players to feel ownership.

Do you feel that a sense of ownership is pretty desirable for this game? Examples of little/no ownership games: Great Ork Gods (or any system with ridiculously high character mortality), Universalis (played by the book no one really owns anything). In these two games the focus is not on ownership. In GOG the focus is on personality and hilarity. In Universalis the focus is Story. So again: do we want a sense of ownership for Archivists? Or will differentiation by personality be enough.

Addendum: perhaps use the now-popular "Write 100 words about your motivation" except that we do not translate any of it into the mechanics... Those 100 words are just there for you to reference...

Thomas

Tobias wrote:

Thomas wrote:

Sydney Freedberg wrote: If every Archivist is like every other in game-mechanical terms, it's hard for players to feel ownership.

...do we want a sense of ownership for Archivists? Or will differentiation by personality be enough?

I get the feeling differentiation by personality/experiences/ArchivistSocialStanding/ArchivistMission will be enough. Note that the personality thing is really important for the Host, since they will become emotionless monsters otherwise...[and] if the Archivist posesses a Host with values/personality close to his own, there will be less potential conflict, and he'll be more effective. How about we balance that out by having the lure of staying too long, the flesh-thrill, a bigger one? It's the ideal suit - are you going to take it off?.

I'd like to say just one thing:

A suave guy, feeling lucky
Scheduled a vasectomy
At "Schenectady urology"
he thought "small snip - no synecdoche"
it became "big snip - eulogy"

Ermmm - to justify - this is a brainstorm, right? I'm just keeping people's creative juices flowing. It ain't even a limerick.

I like Uncanny Knowlegz much better than Kewl Powerz.

Sydney Freedberg wrote: And remember that Host may change every single session, so the "continuing character" that each player primarily identifies with is their Archivist: If every Archivist is like every other in game-mechanical terms, it's hard for players to feel ownership.

Tobias wrote: I like Uncanny Knowlegz much better than Kewl Powerz.

Andrew Morris wrote: Another idea (assuming we want an advancement mechanic, which is by no means a certainty) is to allow the experience points (or whatever) to be used on the host for each session. So, effectively, XP is a measure of how good the Archivist is at finding and controlling suitable hosts. Each session, everyone gets to design a basic host, then improve it using their XP.

Adressing advancement: My suggestion would be that you are awarded these points... You may use points whenever you jump to a new host. All hosts have X number of Traits at level Y (or something), you may buy as many of these using Points as you wish, if you do not fill your quota the rest will be assigned (GM fiat? roll on a table? go around the table and each player throws one in?). It simulates the "find host" thing, but still limits you in that if you spend all your points now to get the "perfect" host your next host will be almost completely out of your control...

Thomas

Alright, I'm jumping in late...and my appologies for that...but having read this thread I was suddenly inspired as to how I would want to play it. Feel free to ignore them if I'm too late.

1) Players as both A&Hs: Personally, I think this is a critical concept to the game, and I disagree with the idea of them being split or being radically different. The reason, simply enough, is that the Archivist, based on some of your initial language that I really liked, is surfing his own historical sense. As such, he/she would probably be jumping into hosts that jive with his current intention. I think the idea of a conflicting host is a bit repugnant, as that would probably not be an enjoyable experience for the Archivist and they wouldn't be inclined to stay.

2) I definately think there should be some kind of cultural definitions (classes/clans/etc) to represent the various mentalities involved in molding the future. Stereotypes are useful to games, provided they're not presented in a limiting fashion.

3) The more I read about it the more I, personally, envision the Archivists role as more of a pilot than a conflicting entity. And, on that line, I might design the dynamics of host/Archivist as more of a "pushing the machine too hard" type. Maybe have two sets of stats that correlate, but are tested against each other. I.e. Archivist wants to jump from rooftop to rooftop. That's more than the host can do normally, and likely more than they are designed to do period, so there's a check of some kind, almost like a saving throw or piloting test, that compares the Archivist's control and balance vs. the hosts body. Failure leads to blowouts, burnouts, or collapses in varying degrees while success means the body adapts and manages to function...for a while longer.

Just some thoughts.

As this still appears to be a brainstorm, I'm going to chuck out a few more thought on this.

Firstly, the players POV. I still feel strongly that each Archivist/Host symbiosis is a single 'identity'. However, given that the game appears to be tracking Archivists as they move from host to host, there still has to be a 'core' Archivist identity (who the character is when they are not possessing someone.) This should be the first stage of character creation.

Secondly, this may already be obvious, but I just want to observe the the Archivist (and not the Hosts) are shaping up to be the key antagonist for our Premise (something bad needs to be stopped, and the future of the human race preserved)

Now, bringing us back to this Premise, it follows that Archivists are posessing a particular Host for a reason. If I'm possessing Bill the Auto Mechanic, there has to be a reason I chose him instead of the other 100,000 other Auto Mechanics I could have possessed instead.

If this is a time-travel game, the obvious conclusion is that Bill is in the vicinity of a 'pivotal moment' and his skills are needed. I feel that this 'pivotal' thing should be the main factor in finding a 'Good Host.'

So I don't see XP being a measure of how good a Host you can find. I see it as a measure of how well you can use the Host you've got. This manifests as better use of powers (see below), and also cultural and physical skills learnt from previous hosts (Archivists already have easy access to mental skills, they've been around for so long.)

Pre-existing human traits: I've seen a lot of this in previous posts, but it's got me wondering: if Archivists were 'created' far enough in the future, and were technologically advanced enough to make the jump to Archivist status, and spent long enough in their new form before taking Hosts - they may have a substantially different take on what is 'human'. I think we need to consider carefully what those 'residual human traits' are going to look like.

(OTOH, if you want to have a long-repressed and fully human personality for each Archivist, which could surface when inhabiting a Host, then that could be a lot of fun. Imagine a triangle between the Host, the 'dispassionate' Archivist, and the Archivists former human self...)

Archivist Powers: I see these falling into two main categories - 'energetic' and 'telepathic'. Energetic powers are about boosting the Hosts existing physical capabilites (metabolic acceleration, pain control etc.) - this may not seem a big deal, but imagine someone on PCP, with with control over their actions. Obviously, these sort of powers are going to Burn* a Host severely, but it may lead to some Matrix-style action (I want this too, Sydney!), especially 'bullet-time' reactions.

Telepathy is already a stock ability, so I won't dwell on this here. But...

I don't think that Archivists should have large-scale psychokinetic or 'laser' powers. If they had these, then why do they need Hosts?

Lot's of stuff here, hope it's useful and not too far away from what everyone wants. Can't wait to see what you all come up with next!

*I'm thinking of Burn as physical here - 'the candle that burns twice as bright...' etc. However I agree that we need to measure 'psychic' injury to the Host as well. Perhaps 'energetic' powers Burn a Host physically, whereas 'telepathic' powers damage his mind? This feels appropriate somehow.

GregS wrote: Alright, I'm jumping in late...

GregS wrote: ...the Archivist, based on some of your initial language that I really liked, is surfing his own historical sense. As such, he/she would probably be jumping into hosts that jive with his current intention. I think the idea of a conflicting host is a bit repugnant...

Dear Everyone,

I think it's good to get some of these (great!) ideas into some more concrete mechanics while the iron's still hot. This is why I've made three threads to follow up:

1. Nailing Mechanics - nuts and bolts
2. Core vs. Custom - what is essential, and what can be changed?
3. Time Travel Party! - concerns of Time Travel and player groups.

I hope you are all having as much fun with this thing as I am, and will continue to posts in these new threads.

Thanks,
Foot

How do the Archivists recognize each other as they are hopping from body to body?

What level of control does the Archivist have over the choice of Host?

If the Archivists are from the Future what level of historical acuity do they have? Do they know that there will be a cab on the corner with the future vice president in it at 3:46? Or do they just know that sometime in the future Billy will save the world if he isn't killed by these other guys from the future?

Does the Host need to represent someone who is involved with the situation at hand or are they merely inocent bystanders? Why not jump into Hitler and stop the genocide?

What level of physicality do the Archivists have when they are not in the host? are they allways hanging around waiting to set things right or are they sent here on assignment?

Are these questions that should be front end decided or are these customizable features of your campaign setting? I have answers of my own but wanted to get other imput so we can all be on the same page.

Good questions, but I don't have THE answers, of course. I'll try to wrap it up here for you for now (with what I've seen of everyone's responses), so we can continue in the three new threads.

Thor wrote: How do the Archivists recognize each other as they are hopping from body to body?

What level of control does the Archivist have over the choice of Host?

If the Archivists are from the Future what level of historical acuity do they have? Do they know that there will be a cab on the corner with the future vice president in it at 3:46? Or do they just know that sometime in the future Billy will save the world if he isn't killed by these other guys from the future?

Does the Host need to represent someone who is involved with the situation at hand or are they merely inocent bystanders? Why not jump into Hitler and stop the genocide?

What level of physicality do the Archivists have when they are not in the host? are they allways hanging around waiting to set things right or are they sent here on assignment?

Are these questions that should be front end decided or are these customizable features of your campaign setting? I have answers of my own but wanted to get other imput so we can all be on the same page.

Thor wrote: How do the Archivists recognize each other as they are hopping from body to body?

Modus Operandi?

I've been away for a while and now what I see? You guys are great! So let me steal here and there and get my thoughts...

Balance
Archivist has this slide that shows his "Archivistness". Host has a limit, NOT known to Archivist. Archivist can use his power to boost a host, but he lose a part of his soul. So, archivist can increase all host stats, skill, attribute and trait and can use them at will.

Drawback. He lose Archive point and slowly burn the host. So At any time Archivist can fade away from the host, that slowly lose stats while the Archivist regains his pure energy power.

Host has limit. If an Archivist push host over this limit, host starts to decay. Illness, crazyness, loss of sanity and the like. If Archivist go away suddenly he loses his pure energy points.

When things go bad
Ok, burnout time!
When things go really bad Archivist can sacrifice host and shows his really power. He can manipulate through the host mind all the nature forces such gravity, magnetism and the like and do interesting stuff.
Nevertheless host dies a little later.
Obviously he mustn't go and kill hosts at will... (balance stuff)

Archivist rigeneration
Archivist can regain his pure energy points by staying a while in his office at the Great Library and doning office work.

Jediblack,

Thanks for that. That 'host limit' thing sounds pretty good.

Everyone: For further posts about this game, may I invite you to use the three threads I created (a few posts back in this thread?).

Thanks,
Foot

Done and done.

See ya, Da