Topic: [Heroquest] Spring Fountain {well of souls} pt. 2
Started by: Doyce
Started on: 1/10/2005
Board: Actual Play
On 1/10/2005 at 11:59pm, Doyce wrote:
[Heroquest] Spring Fountain {well of souls} pt. 2
As mentioned here and here, I'm currently running an HQ game for my die-hard DnD group on the alternate Fridays from the regular game. Here's what happened in the most recent play session, from Friday.
In short, success. Go to http://random.average-bear.com/Heroquest/SpringFountain for the list of characters, the player briefing, et cetera. Here's an outline of what happened:
Play opened where we'd left off on the previous session -- basically everyone was milling about in the Grand Entry Hall (and Staircase) (tm), while the two eldest of the Baron's sons were introduced to Lady Noella and Aimee. Everyone but Eilwen was there (since she has, y'know... hooves), and Guy (who was upstairs, arranging for the guest rooms).
* (Planned Emilie bang, part 1) Serge takes Emilie aside for a moment. He makes it clear that there is no. way. Emilie will continue to be the squire for the new Baron of Trymirwal; if she does well enough in keeping Guilbert out of trouble, she'll be reassigned to a new knight; if she doesn't, she'll be tossed out on her ear. Her choice. Emilie puts on the thousand mile stare and nods through the speech.
* Colette and Guy are coming downstairs as Noella and Aimee head upstairs. The two ladies are introduced. Temperatures on the grand staircase drop several degrees.
* (Planned Zelana bang) As soon as he's free of meeting Noella and Aimee, Hugo motions to Zelana and they step into a nearby hallway to talk. Zelana wants nothing more than to get out of the manor and someplace green and quiet. Hugo allows that that would be nice, but with everything going on, he's got to ask a favor. He basically asks her to spy on Serge & Company to see what his ultimate plans are -- using Little Ionni if necessary, since he's noticed that the big burly squire seems to like her.
* Eilwen runs to tell Xavier and Brier what's going on. Brier heads back to the manor to help Hugo, and Xavier asks her to spread word to the local militia to 'gather'. You know, just to be on the safe side.
* Guilbert says something to Emilie about how leaving for hinterlands doesn't sound so bad anymore -- would she go and make sure all the bags are packed? Guilbert has a bit of a 1000 yard stare, but Emilie is fuming over Serge and doesn't care what that's about.
* Guy locates Lucas, who's going through the meager library, trying to get clues about dear old Dad and what's going on. Guy pulls him away from the books to discuss the young and attractive Aimee (Guy's goal is to get Guilbert hooked up with Josette, so he needs to find someone for the young newcomer).
Other Player: "And hey, she's a virgin, so bonus points for sacrifices."
Lucas' Player: "Yuss!"
* Guilbert walks over to meet Guy and Lucas as they emerge into the front hall. Guilbert nods distractedly about the idea with Aimee and asks if Guy could do him a favor and ... I don't remember the excuse, but something to make him go away. (Planned Lucas bang) As soon as Guy is clear, Guilbert attacks Lucas. Big time. Lucas tumbles back into a suit of armor, trips, goes down, and smacks the back of his already assaulted head on the paving stones. By the time he focuses, Guilbert is on top of him, holding the armor suit's helmet over his head like a bludgeon and shouting "WHAT DID YOU DO TO HIM!"
(The best part about this is that one of the players saw this coming about three seconds before it happened.)
The pair are pulled apart. Lucas is carted upstairs by Zelana and Guy. Guy brings Zelana up to date on what's been going on.
* Minor bang. Guilbert pulls free of his captors makes a break for Lucas' room. Emilie is coming down the stairs, having just heard the crash and met Lucas &c coming up. She is in the way and has to make a decision.
Emilie stops him. Big time. She pulls out all the stops, including a little magical augment, and basically clotheslines him as he's coming up the stairs. They both tumble back down to the main room -- not pretty, but it gets the job done. Serge should be satisfied. This is not as comforting a thought as it might be.
* When the fracas first started, Jacques decides he's not laying a hand on the heir, so he heads upstairs to make sure Noella is distracted and out of the way... She invites him in (says the spider to the fly) for some conversation. This was a big contest for Jacques to determine who gives up what kind of information -- he's a fine knight, but he's under-prepared for the social filleting that Noella can bring to bear. Still, he musters what augments he can to keep her from getting info on what's going on (including inventive use of an Orderly spell) and, with a Hero Point, manages to eek out a marginal victory. Based on the augments he added to his diplomacy, it's clear that what he's basically done is clamped down and refused to engage in anything but the most basic conversation. There follow two side-contests: 1) What does Noella learn about ME? (Success for Noella -- she's heard of his shameful father.) 2) Can I keep Noella on my good side, despite stonewalling her?. She wins this as well, by a LOT, but the player bumped with TWO hero points to get it to a Marginal Failure -- he's planning plans for Aimee, and doesn't want Mommy Dearest to completely hate him. With a marginal failure, she merely finds him annoying and plain.
Aimee? Aimee watched the dashing knight verbally spar with Mother and not give anything away. PLUS, Mother clearly doesn't like him much... Aimee thinks he's just... swell (swoon).
* Eilwen, while riding to gather the militias, thinks things over and realizes that Xavier's plan might be a really bad idea -- that it might look really bad to the wrong people -- Xavier is really overstepping his bounds.
* Guilbert sends Emilie to fetch Etienne. Emilie and Etienne chat on the carriage ride back to the manor -- Etienne gamely tries to engage her in pleasant conversation, and actually gets a smile out of her here and there. Not bad, Etienne.
* During lunch, Collete and Noella continue to bring the hate.
* Zelana tries to sneak out of the manor just after lunch, but gets cornered on her way out -- she has the option between Serge and Guilbert and opts to allow Guilbert to flag her down. They find a sitting room in which she gives him grief for pummeling poor Lucas, and he explains his thought process -- Lucas hit Dad with a spell, and now Dad is in a coma, and there's magic involved... seems logical, if you're Guilbert.
* Guy goes to fetch Josette, because Guy wants her comforting Guilbert in this time of need. Josette walks in on Zelana and Guilbert talking, and the temperature drops in the room, somewhat warmed by Heartfelt Young Nun Angst. Zelana is MORE than happy to leave, though, and does so. Guilbert looks disappointed.
* (Planned Emilie bang, part 2) After lunch, Collette talks with Emily. She asks Emilie to "let Guilbert distract himself" -- if Guilbert is less viable as an heir, people will try harder to bring back Eustef. She doesn't make it an order, because she doesn't want Emilie to hate her, and she doesn't' think Emilie needs to *do* anything -- just leave a few things undone. "Guilbert is like a babbling creek -- he naturally flows downhill."
* Emilie goes to find Father Rance to ask him about how to save Eustef. She finds him coming out of Eustef's room -- and he is bleeding from his eyes, and the little drops of blood are SLITHERING AWAY WHEN THEY HIT THE FLOOR AHHHHHH! (Sorry, I know I ripped this off from someone else's game, but it's bad ass, so I used it.)
Emily gets Rance set down in Colette's room and RUNS to find Zelana (who was trying to leave the manor AGAIN) and they go back to try to help Rance. Rance seems to really like Zelana and asks her and Emilie to sit with Eustef. Rance will send for Josette (who's closer than he thinks) to help with the... sitting.
* Serge, Maslin, Jacques, and other warrior types are talking about the barony defense out in the back garden. Serge orders Xavier "and your conveniently-assembled militia" into the mountains to watch a northern pass that leads to a nearby barony (Dormand) that's been ... funding the stealing of sheep herds lately. Maslin is sent to the eastern border to man some long-abandoned garrison towers? The hell? Isn't he like... four hundred years old? Serge is staying in Wells. One of his men will go back to Boyenne to gather up conscripts, and the other will go down to the Southern road that leads into the Barony and watch things there. Jacques is asked to get some men together to patrol the northwestern border between Maslin's Mime and his own Stalos. The group breaks up.
Jacques notices some significant glances between Maslin and Xavier and figures out who's in which faction -- he knows Xavier from "The Winter Campaign" in which he met Serge as well, and make a connection with him -- asking about which of the Stalos militia are Good Men and also telling Xavier to send for him if there is ANY problem.
* Jacques/Guy bang, part 1 Guilbert, Etienne, and Guy gather after Josette is called away by Rance to see to Eustef, and the three talk things over. Guilbert doesn't want to be Baron -- he's glad Serge is "on my side", but wants people to work on "helping Father". He laughs then, and says that he can't be made Baron anyway -- the Baron has to be a member of the Order of Saint Gerlant, and only Father can sponsor him.
Well, Father and now this De Molay fellow. What's he like?
"How about we take him down to the Hen's Lips this evening and find out?" Suggests Etienne. "That might be fun." Guy categorically redefines what Etienne thinks of as "fun".
* Jacques bang, part 2 Serge approaches Jacques after the soldierly meeting and talks about the "technicality" with the whole "Baron has to be an Orderly of St. Gerlant"... thing. He wants Guilbert sponsored to the Order of St. Gerlant, and Jacques is the only man to do it.
* Josette comes up to sit with Eustef eventually. She sits quietly for a time with Emilie and Zelana. Pensive. Finally, she breaks down and admits that she wants some advice about Guilbert.
------------
Annnnd SCENE. That's where we ended for the night (the LONG night -- we played probably two hours past our normal end of game time for DnD).
------------
Thoughts:
THE GOOD
* Let me sum up how play is going with this quote from one of my die-hard DnD players: "I think we should put the DnD game on hold for awhile and just play this." [Agreement nods all around the table.] "We should make it a campaign."
Also: "There hasn't even been any combat yet, which kinda sucks, cuz I'm good at that -- but all this other is really good."
THE BAD
* The Eilwen character -- the player and I both acknowledge that she was a huge mistake. She's got the relationship tie in, but she's clearly just a character type the player wanted to play before reading any of the background. He wanted to shoehorn her in, and I didn't want to say "don't do that" and start his HQ experience off on a negative note -- but DAMN it is not working. Neither of us can think of anything to do about it. She just. Doesn't. Fit.
THE UGLY
* One of the funny recurring themes for the session was Zelana trying to get out of the manor and being pulled back in by the grabby NPCs. (And PCs, actually.) Zelana obviously wants to get out of the manor and just hide in the forest. The only weird thing is... the player is really trying hard to make this happen, though she HAS to know (in the Ouija board 'know' sense that she knows, but wants to pretend she doesn't) that NOTHING OF IMPORT WILL HAPPEN out there. Witness Eilwen. Ugh. Is this turtling?
I need to touch base with the player and discuss the recent Robin Laws post:
Memorable characterization occurs when a PC actively moves the story in a new direction -- not when he fails to act or prevents others from acting. A player who thinks a possible action violates his sense of the character should, instead of doing nothing, find an alternate, suitable action.
a.) List three things you character will always do, whenever possible.
b.) Review the list at the beginning of each session.
c.) Pick the one that seems to relate to the scenario at hand.
d.) Try to move events in the story so you can actively do this thing.
Other than that, things are really going well. I believe I've made some HQ converts, and they're looking forward to some extended contest goodness.
Note to self: first extended contest MUST NOT BE a physical fight -- I want to debut that system in a conflict which DnD doesn't already make longer than everything else.
Forge Reference Links:
Topic 13710
Topic 13746
On 1/11/2005 at 1:27am, Bankuei wrote:
RE: [Heroquest] Spring Fountain {well of souls} pt. 2
Hi Doyce,
Sounds really cool! I'm glad to hear folks are getting into it, and that the drama is turning up.
The key to Eilwen becoming more functional as a character requires that both you and the player are willing to seriously focus on relationships. First, there's the relationships that she currently has- any serious stressors on them can equal worthwhile play for her as a character- if the player is committed.
Another, potentially fun avenue for this character would be to allow her to form a fair amount of relationships with the people who aren't in power in Spring Fountain. This means all the common folks who are probably going to be getting the worst of whatever conflict does pop off. Those same people may also be very helpful in revealing the mystical situation through their underground superstitions. Aside from that, depending on your groups' take on centaurs, the pagan spirits of Spring Fountain may entreaty her for assistance or assume that she is an allied nature being.
If, this character just turns out to be completely and totally unworkable, you and the player can find a plausible exit for her in the game, and simply take up one of the NPCs or introduce new character for the player to use. With all this gathering of troops and allies, it wouldn't be completely out of the question as a way to handle things.
Zelana obviously wants to get out of the manor and just hide in the forest. The only weird thing is... the player is really trying hard to make this happen, though she HAS to know (in the Ouija board 'know' sense that she knows, but wants to pretend she doesn't) that NOTHING OF IMPORT WILL HAPPEN out there.
Is there railroading going on with this? You CAN make something of import happen there. Remember, its a matter of what interesting stuff is going to be plausible. Out in the woods, you might have scouts and spies checking things out, you have the whole pagan religion issue, plus you've got spirits of said religion. Lots of options.
Extended contest? Collete & Noella's verbal sparring sounds good! Run it as an extended contest, and ask the players if their characters are "augmenting" one person's side or another by supporting their actions, laughing at their jabs, etc. Though the players aren't directly involved, let the players choose the bidding and roll for each side. You can run it over an entire session, or several if you like. :)
Other, more involved options include anyone's attempt to impress someone else(cough- romance?), unify or divide politically, get all the mystic info on what's going down, calm someone down, or rile them up, etc. Whatever seems really dramatic and vital to the outcome of events in play- make that the extended contest.
Sounds like great fun, I look forward to the next installment.
Chris
On 1/11/2005 at 6:30am, joshua neff wrote:
RE: [Heroquest] Spring Fountain {well of souls} pt. 2
Bankuei wrote:
Zelana obviously wants to get out of the manor and just hide in the forest. The only weird thing is... the player is really trying hard to make this happen, though she HAS to know (in the Ouija board 'know' sense that she knows, but wants to pretend she doesn't) that NOTHING OF IMPORT WILL HAPPEN out there.
Is there railroading going on with this? You CAN make something of import happen there. Remember, its a matter of what interesting stuff is going to be plausible. Out in the woods, you might have scouts and spies checking things out, you have the whole pagan religion issue, plus you've got spirits of said religion. Lots of options.
What Chris said. I have a horrible tendency when I'm GMing to assume that once the first session starts, everything is set in stone. If I haven't established to myself that there's anything in the forest, than there isn't anything in the forest period. In retrospect, though, Chris is right--is there any reason there couldn't be something in the forest for the PC to get involved in? Maybe the player isn't turtling; maybe the player thinks forests are cool set pieces and wants her hero to go into one. Whatever the case, don't fight the player--let the player go where she wants to, and wherever she goes, give her something to deal with.
On 1/11/2005 at 6:42am, Doyce wrote:
RE: [Heroquest] Spring Fountain {well of souls} pt. 2
joshua neff wrote:Bankuei wrote:
Zelana obviously wants to get out of the manor and just hide in the forest. The only weird thing is... the player is really trying hard to make this happen, though she HAS to know (in the Ouija board 'know' sense that she knows, but wants to pretend she doesn't) that NOTHING OF IMPORT WILL HAPPEN out there.
Is there railroading going on with this? You CAN make something of import happen there. Remember, its a matter of what interesting stuff is going to be plausible. Out in the woods, you might have scouts and spies checking things out, you have the whole pagan religion issue, plus you've got spirits of said religion. Lots of options.
What Chris said. I have a horrible tendency when I'm GMing to assume that once the first session starts, everything is set in stone. Whatever the case, don't fight the player--let the player go where she wants to, and wherever she goes, give her something to deal with.
Part of my recalcitrance comes from the history of character generation for both Zelana and the Eilwen characters -- both players didn't so much read the background material and come up with a concept that would work as much as they did come up with a character and set out to twist things around so their preconceived setup would work. I bent a lot on that during chargen, because I wanted to show them that HQ can do what they wanted.
So they made up a straight DnD Centaur ranger and a half-elven (well, have dryad, anyway) druid, basically. Ugh.
The problem is -- while HQ can do what they wanted, the story doesn't really do much for that.
Still, neither of you are wrong -- given what's going on, there's absolutely no reason that something can't be going on that they could find out about -- it would be a nice way to broaden the scope of things and make people feel like they can leave the manor :) Might be just the thing -- only that it bugs me in a way, because I feel like I'm entertaining one or two characters who weren't really tying in the story to begin with by generating random encounters for them. Maybe that's just sour grapes talking -- it's not as though HQ *can't* do a good hunting adventure.
Excellent points all -- I really value the input.
On 1/11/2005 at 7:32am, Bankuei wrote:
RE: [Heroquest] Spring Fountain {well of souls} pt. 2
Hi Doyce,
I definitely think part of the issue is also the willingness on the part of the players to commit to the conflict as well. In D&D and similar forms of play, you don't have a lot of that, so its very hard for some players to "get" having a protagonist as a character.
Because the Premise in WoS is pretty tightly wound around the conflict of the Manor, the thing is to let people leave the manor, but realize the problem affects everyone in the land.
Anyone who can speak with animals or nature spirits probably is going to open up a whole new R-map of problems going on, some of them quite interesting. Just watch Princess Mononoke and realize you have animals vying for power, dealing with the effects of humans, etc. Do any of the animals or forest know that war is coming? Do they fear the burning and the bloodshed, and the men who will eat and kill everything? Is the health of the land tied to Eustef's health? Is his not-dead state messing things up for nature? Are the animals getting together to do a Heroquest on their own?
The only other advice I can give is a house rule: I reward Hero Points during play, for things I deem worthy "addressing of premise". Basically, the HQ version of dealing with a Humanity roll, or working at a Spiritual Attribute. Rewards at the end of a session tend not to instill the Pavlovian tendency to play more to the reward. People forget what exactly earned their points. When you have a really kick ass scene, give Hero Points. Watch how fast people start coming up with involvement. When the action is rewarded immediately, people start acting faster and more to the point. Simple, but effective.
Chris
On 1/11/2005 at 7:57pm, Doyce wrote:
RE: [Heroquest] Spring Fountain {well of souls} pt. 2
Here's a template of the basic email I sent out to my players -- customized on a player by player basis, of course, but it summarizes the gist.
-----
Okay, I wanted to take some time between sessions to make sure things are fun for everyone, so I'm sending out emails. I've been talking with some folks about the scenario, what's working and what isn't, and come up with some ideas, but I want to get some feedback from you. Here's some questions:
What do you find cool about the character? Is it something you've had a chance to really get into during play, or is there a really cool thing that you haven't had a chance to play with yet? I.e.: think of a scene or scenes you would like to see them in where they get to be cool. (Doesn't have to be just one -- a whole laundry list is fine.)
Along that same vein, are there general scenes you'd like to see
them involved in? An npc you'd like to see her run into and interact with... or several?
Lot's of stuff is going on in the manor right now, but I don't want to be stuck in the house the whole time. Talk to me about how that's working for you so far, and where you think your action should be in the future. (Obviously, I plan to broaden the scope as things continue to develop. :)
There's some other things I could ask, but let's start the dialogue with these.
-----
Input, as always, welcome.
On 1/12/2005 at 6:12am, Christopher Kubasik wrote:
RE: [Heroquest] Spring Fountain {well of souls} pt. 2
Hi Doyce,
I went and read Zelana's character write up off one of the links you provided.
Things might have changed, and you might have already noticed this, but a few things zoomed at my eyeballs right away:
No Goal. Really. The Goal was left a blank. Did the player come up with a Kicker for this poor PC? Any goal of any kind?
And this:
Relationships:
From your Homeland:
* Estranged from Father (Serge): 17
* Likes Hugo a lot: 17
From your Occupation:
* "Little Ionni", Serge's squire (and healer): 17
From your Religion/Magic: Aldrya Tradition
* Worship Aldrya: 17
-* Worship Great Tree: 17
* Friendship with "Wolf Howler": 17
* Friendship with "Sapling Warrior": 17
Um.... All of these relationships are what I wound consider "passive." That is, there isn't any kind of forward moving passion or attachment to another character. (The strongest relationship might be with the father, but estrange implies... you know, no connection.)
There's some post around here (I don't know where, I don't have time to find it) about making the relationships PASSIONATE. There is, of course, no passion here.
"Wants Dad Dead" 17. "Madly in Love with Hugo" 17. "Desperate to win respect of Wolf Howler" 17.... These might do.
But what you've got there -- you're absolutely right -- it's a DnD character waiting for a bag of coins to be plunked on the table for a "job."
And Robin Laws is right. What matters is what the PC MOVING the story. But if the character isn't trying to get anywhere, how can he move the story?
Has the player offered any idea of what might matter? What might be a goal? Who might matter?
Anything?
Christopher
On 1/12/2005 at 6:35am, Doyce wrote:
RE: [Heroquest] Spring Fountain {well of souls} pt. 2
Christopher Kubasik wrote: I went and read Zelana's character write up off one of the links you provided.
No Goal. Really. The Goal was left a blank. Did the player come up with a Kicker for this poor PC? Any goal of any kind?
[snip]
Um.... All of these relationships are what I wound consider "passive." That is, there isn't any kind of forward moving passion or attachment to another character. (The strongest relationship might be with the father, but estrange implies... you know, no connection.)
[snip]
But what you've got there -- you're absolutely right -- it's a DnD character waiting for a bag of coins to be plunked on the table for a "job."
[snip]
Has the player offered any idea of what might matter? What might be a goal? Who might matter?
Anything?
Nope. Really, she's the only one who hasn't, and it's telling. Honestly, Eilwen doesn't have anything like a realistic goal, either -- it's more of a schoolgirl crush with no reality behind it, but I plan to shed the light of reality on that in play, so that's fine.
But no. No goal. Still no goal, after I asked about it last session.
I hadn't really noticed the blandness of the relationships, though -- those are what I emailed her as examples of starter points for the relationships, expecting her to change them. Hmm.
We're having a dialogue at the moment, actually, so I'm going to propose that she pick definitions for her relationships that are more active than what she has. More Passionate, as you say. Then, following that, we'll revisit goals. I'm curious to see what the player's reluctance on that point is -- I can feel that there is some, so I'll draw it out during our conversation.
Excellent, excellent points. It's been a great couple sessions with a lot of great play in a new kind of style for these long, long, LONG-time DnD people, but I think the comments thus far have been the kind of thing that can really help things move to the next stage.
On 1/12/2005 at 10:30pm, Mike Holmes wrote:
RE: [Heroquest] Spring Fountain {well of souls} pt. 2
Doyce wrote: ...I bent a lot on that during chargen, because I wanted to show them that HQ can do what they wanted.
So they made up a straight DnD Centaur ranger and a half-elven (well, have dryad, anyway) druid, basically. Ugh.
The problem is -- while HQ can do what they wanted, the story doesn't really do much for that.
Story? What story? You're refering to WoS?
Scrap it.
That's right. Just ignore it, at least for the player who's not engaged. Come up with a new R-Map that fits that players interests in terms of the character. Then graft it onto the current map.
Chris, is there something inviolable about the WoS setup that you'll be concerned about if Doyce adds to it or modifies it substantially? No? Peter? No? Good.
See, even the authors don't mind. Radically cut and paste until it's what you need it to be.
For the centaur character in question...she's a &(#&$*#& Centaur! Holy cats, you can make tons of milage out of that. Maybe everyone remembers that tomorrow is Centaur Season, and gets out the crossbows. I dunno, but the player wanted to see how HQ handles "races" and species? Well, show her!
I mean, to tap into Freud for a moment, this is a woman player playing a part horse character? Do I have that right? Time to deal with her centaurness. Lesse...how about a hidden reason behind her father's appearance is that he's arranged a marriage for his daughter, and, of course, needs to get her online for it. She'll resist, of course, except then the male centaur shows up, and he's a hunk...
Terribly cliche idea, but you get where I'm going with it. The "grafting" part is finding reasons for the NPCs in the old map to need the NPCs in the new map in a way that spurs them into action as regards the heroes. So the game doesn't become two separate games. Keep it folding back on itself. The added material will make your game of WoS unique, and I think it'll all work better.
Mike
On 1/12/2005 at 11:06pm, Peter Nordstrand wrote:
RE: [Heroquest] Spring Fountain {well of souls} pt. 2
As Mike said.
And I'm eagerly awaiting to read about your next session, Doyce. Thank you for playing and posting.
All the best,
On 1/12/2005 at 11:53pm, Bankuei wrote:
RE: [Heroquest] Spring Fountain {well of souls} pt. 2
Hi everyone,
Chris, is there something inviolable about the WoS setup that you'll be concerned about if Doyce adds to it or modifies it substantially? No? Peter? No? Good.
Inviolable? I even encourage people to add themselves in as family members of the whole shebang if it flies :)
As far as the centaur season- let's not forget that there is pagan magic about, and some really superstitious people.
Chris
On 1/13/2005 at 12:06am, Doyce wrote:
RE: [Heroquest] Spring Fountain {well of souls} pt. 2
Mike Holmes wrote: I mean, to tap into Freud for a moment, this is a woman player playing a part horse character? Do I have that right?
Actually, female centaur being played by male player. He typically plays either male martial artists (wish fulfillment) or trampy females (god knows). Eilwen is, in that light, refreshingly innocent for one of this female characters.
Everyone else is playing to gender and varies in gaming backgrounds from one long-time Amber player to several near-exclusively-DnD veterans. It's an interesting mix.
Zelana's player, who started playing a few years ago in her late 20's and has only done non-d20 when I've introduced it, has stared in astonishment at Guy's player (a long time Amber player), who's every scene involves taking volatile PCs and NPCs and purposely trying to get them into scenes with each other -- he's like a mini-GM :) There's a real strong vibe of 'why are you seeking conflicts? let the GM provide us with the conflicts' kind of confusion going on.
Guy? He just keeps grinning and saying things like "I want to talk to Lucas about what a fine catch Aimee would be." or "Let's get Etienne in here with Zelana and see if they hit it off."
On 1/13/2005 at 1:36am, Eero Tuovinen wrote:
RE: [Heroquest] Spring Fountain {well of souls} pt. 2
Doyce wrote:
Actually, female centaur being played by male player. He typically plays either male martial artists (wish fulfillment) or trampy females (god knows). Eilwen is, in that light, refreshingly innocent for one of this female characters.
Not to insult, but he sounds a little bit neandhertal, doesn't he? I find these situations interesting, because I have had to handle them routinely for the last few years, and have thus far tried mainly accomodating techniques: give each player what he wants, that kind of thing.
But let me shape the issue somewhat, so you'll understand my pondering: as far as I'm currently concerned, many issues of actual play are about the social level in a very old, established way: they're about artistic vision. The creative agendas are part of this, but it's at the same time a more fine-grained and more general issue. It's the same issue that confronts all artist, everywhere, when they are forced to cooperate.
Now, my opinions on artistic vision rest on holistical consideration of the philosophy, goals and character of the artist; specifically I hold the opinion that people can diverge tremendously in how they understand the world around them. Might seem like a truism when put that way, but that simple fact also leads to considerations of breeding and education when comparing widely separate people. Some people are simply on completely different levels (as in, some understand far less than others) as far as artistic vision is considered, which is something of a taboo issue in many circles, where the first clause of manners is about equality of "intellect" or whatever.
This somewhat lenghty introduction is to explain the context of the following: in some cases, true communication is imbeded by simple inability to understand what the other party is saying. To tell it bluntly, some people are just more stupid than others. "Stupid" is however a weighted word, so it's better to consider it in terms of different experiences and priorities, which are what the word means anyway: when a person's experience doesn't have the reach nor the grasp for what's going on, miscommunication may persist even through earnest explanations.
...
So, what I'm saying here is that you should consider carefully if communication has really happened with the player in question here. Especially, if communication about artistic vision has happened. My experiences, to which I referred, have led me to the reluctant conclusion that I simply can't play narrativist-type games with some people: they simply don't have the intellectual tools to grasp that they could have an active role in the creation of the story (or rather, they don't understand what a story is). When you confront the fact, you can either really try to start at the beginning with the player, or you have to dissolve the artistic relationship.
It's actually pretty hard to find the words for this... strange... insight into the mind of the kind of player I'm talking about. They're usually friendly, possibly intelligent people, who however don't generally read or watch movies too much. They have no trouble with the rules of a game. But it's like the... imagination, for the lack of a better word, isn't there. And it's generally like they don't themselves realize that something is lacking.
And I'm not talking about simple ignorance towards narrativistic concepts, either. I'm thinking of people for whom those concepts are so alien that they don't even understand the words used in the same way you or I do. "Protagonist? Sure, whatever..."
I've come to the conclusion that in the great majority of cases the thing lacking is genuine feel and experience for the literary dimension. Such a person doesn't understand what a story is. There are people like this. They play exclusively on gamist and simulationist basis, all the time. You can talk about story, protagonism, theme or meaning as long as you wish, but that won't change anything, because such a person has never experienced these things for himself, and has some superficial or alternative meaning for the words. When he's read something, in school, say, the impressions have been of mental pictures. When going to the movies, he likes the cool scenes, but doesn't see the plot. Generally he doesn't do those things very much, because - you can imagine - literary art loses much of it's impact if meaning is expurgated.
Anyway, my point here, as far as practical play is concerned: it's possible that your player doesn't have the faintest idea of what's going on. He's making decisions based on learned habits of play (turtling or resource management or passivity broken by socially pressured random acts) or simulationist priority. What's important is that he probably doesn't have any literary models in his head for what's supposed to happen in the game. This is an enormous difference, our expectations are what forms decisions in roleplaying, and if somebody simply doesn't have any...
As I said, I'm having great difficulty in articulating this thing... What I'm trying to say is that it's possible that your player has never experienced an intrigue drama, he doesn't have the faintest idea that such a construct of plot and milieu exists. He perhaps has no experience with love stories or murder mysteries either, so all reactions are based on a type of expectation whole magnitudes lower in complexity: a person without literary background generally has only culturally embedded experiences and some shards of genre situations, in addition to their own experiences. That's why some of my D&D players seem like they're all from the same mold: they know what happens in D&D when orcs come along the road, they might know from their own life that a kindly stranger might offer instructions. But they have no basis on which to understand such commonplace things as a proper quest or romance scene, even. Remember, roleplaying is always intertextual: the usual player will understand much of what happens in terms of their experiences, including the literary strata of their memory.
I'm not sure if this is coming through at all. Just... consider your player from the viewpoint of his literary background. If he's the kind of gamer who's never cracked open a book, or even one who only reads occasionally, consider well if he has even theoretical chances of staying on board. The Well of Souls asks a surprising amount of such literary "zeal" to understand, as does any scenario where players are supposed to make meaningful choices. Consider: if you as the player don't realize that the crown is at stake and that civil war is just around the corner, if you don't realize that the decisions will be made in court, if you don't realize that that guy there might make a foolish decision out of love... then how are you going to understand anything that's happening in Well of Souls?
I don't know, it's possible that this insight is self-evident to the others here. I just came to understand the peculiar difference between myself and some of my D&D players through several years of play, in which a great number of different situations of all agendas were confronted. I of course knew that I'm tremendously well-read compared to most of my players, but only extensive play allowed me to realize the holes this lack had left in their understanding roleplaying-wise. For me it was an important realization, that the difference was in our respective relationships to literature, in the fundamental manner of thought. It's freeing to understand that to teach narrativism I'd have to first teach literature. The impossibility (as in, why'd a guy come to have fun want to read a book instead?) of the latter justifies letting things stand as they are: I don't have to try to reach these people about this particular thing, as long as they're not interested in changing their whole lives.
Anyway, on a tangent: regardless of what kind of a player you have, if he has problems with getting into the scenario, try telling him all, everything you know yourself. Like this:
"The scenario is about these two brothers, we saw them already in the last session, and their father. The brothers both made magical wishes, one hoping for life, one for death, for their father. The result was a coma. The idea of the game is to find out what happens next, when the father was a great lord of the land. Should the death-wisher be punished, even if he didn't do it on purpose? Who will lead the county?"
Have you tried that? Furthermore, continue by giving the whole scenario for the player to read before the next session. If the player has trouble finding the key issues and orienting his character, you can ensure that it's not a matter of communication by laying it all out as clearly as possible. It's so much more important to orient the character as compared to preserving surprise that it's not even funny.
I've myself gained extremely good results by straight talking, if the player has had any inclination towards narrativism at all. It can be done on a small scale, during a single scene ("Hey, it seems to me that this decision will decide on your faithfulness, eh?") or for whole adventures at once ("The main question of this adventure is, 'who should rule?'"). I'm currently running Well of Souls myself, and I've directed the players to read the scenario if they wish, and in any case I cut all the character profiles for the NPCs they had met for them to read.
On 1/13/2005 at 2:39am, Christopher Kubasik wrote:
RE: [Heroquest] Spring Fountain {well of souls} pt. 2
Wow.
For the first time I finally got why some people who read posts on the Forge completely freak out and think we're arrogant pricks sitting around judging people as we sit on perches of stacked PDF print-outs.
I know I've even been one of those people who's been quoted as being such a judgmental prick. I myself think I've been misunderstood and quoted out of context -- but after euro's post…. I don't what to think anymore.
Anyway. In 3 months to two years someone's going to find dig up this post, pull out two especially offensive sentences, post them somewhere else on the internet and say, "See, look at all all those folks at The Forge. Arrogant pricks."
I'm gonna go on record right here and say, I don't know what the hell Euro's talking about in terms of "intelligence" or "ability."
For my money, different people have different tastes, different knacks, different interests. For whatever reason, people are different, and drawn to different activities and expressions of interest in life.
But I've never seen this as a shortcoming. Just like some people like looking at paintings, and others don't, some people are drawn to one kind of Creative Agenda for RPGs, and others are drawn to others. This is what might be called… Life.
Now, I know the fact that I'm offering up the fact that different people want different things from games (and even life) offends some people. Terribly. And the fact that I might want to spend time with someone who has the same values/taste/interest as me rather someone who doesn't offends people even more.
But I've been around this issue enough times that I simply don't care that I offend people about this anymore. I see it as a fact. Others see my point of view as an insult. Whatever.
But, again, let me be clear: I've never seen the fact that different people have different interests or tastes or desires as a shortcoming in a person. I honestly am stunned by Euro's post.
And that's that.
Doyce, I want to add my two cents in that I've really enjoyed your posts on your game. Actual Play is the pilot light of The Forge, and you're posts have been excellent.
Best,
Christopher
On 1/13/2005 at 2:44am, Ron Edwards wrote:
RE: [Heroquest] Spring Fountain {well of souls} pt. 2
Hello,
Chris, it helped me to consider all of Eero's post before the "..." to be his mind churning, to produce his real post, which begins after that point. Everything after that is phrased in a more descriptive way, rather than judgmental.
Best,
Ron
On 1/13/2005 at 2:56am, Doyce wrote:
RE: [Heroquest] Spring Fountain {well of souls} pt. 2
Eero,
Thanks for all the thoughts on this. I think this comprises some interesting thoughts on dissonance, and I thank you for that.
It doesn't, I don't think, apply to the player we're discussing -- he reads voraciously, movie goer -- I don't think it's a break in our understanding of what the story we're playing is about. Honestly, the bottom line is he wanted to see if he could go outside the box quite a ways and still make it work... and it's been a struggle, but we're working on how to make it work.
In his own words:
I was getting to the point that I was about to give up on her... now it's a matter of pride. If both of us can't figure out a way to get her involved, then nobody can.
I'm looking upon this as a challenge to flex my RP muscles and come up with an intriguing, but workable and inventive way of involving her.
So... that's what it is. Thank you for the input.
On 1/13/2005 at 8:52am, Eero Tuovinen wrote:
RE: [Heroquest] Spring Fountain {well of souls} pt. 2
Christopher Kubasik wrote:
For the first time I finally got why some people who read posts on the Forge completely freak out and think we're arrogant pricks sitting around judging people as we sit on perches of stacked PDF print-outs.
Well, yeah. That's why I was so hesitant to take this matter up. I realize perfectly well that my opinions on the matters of art, intelligence and communication are far from politically correct in the context of the American scene (they can best be characterized as "elitist"), so of course that's the reaction. I would need a much longer post, delving into the basic assumptions of life and philosophy, to really defend such outrageous opinions. Sorry to piss you off, we clearly don't have enough of a common background for you to understand what I'm about.
I'll try to shortly convince you that I'm not an "arrogant prick", at least not in any judgemental, stupid way. If this doesn't do it, let's not derail the thread any more. I'd take this to PM, but I'd rather take the opportunity to defend my honor in public if Ron doesn't mind...
Anyway. In 3 months to two years someone's going to find dig up this post, pull out two especially offensive sentences, post them somewhere else on the internet and say, "See, look at all all those folks at The Forge. Arrogant pricks."
Tough luck. I know you really don't write here just for the hoi polloi to fawn over you. Really, I have no sympathy for the argument from common opinion, and you can do better than that.
I'm gonna go on record right here and say, I don't know what the hell Euro's talking about in terms of "intelligence" or "ability."
You'll notice that I'm qualifying both heavily, with long descriptive sentences referring to cultural background. Like, the guy who's read the Three Musketeers is more "intelligent" about navigating a story that's supposed to be about courtly swashbuckling than the guy who's only ever seen the random movie not even really about it, just happening to feature some swordsmen.
For my money, different people have different tastes, different knacks, different interests. For whatever reason, people are different, and drawn to different activities and expressions of interest in life.
Yeah, that's the politically correct position, and you'll note that it's very similar to mine, except that I'm actually making conclusions from the differences. Some people are different from others in various ways, and that surely translates into operative differences, that can as well be characterized as the ability to understand some things better than others. Your PC stuff is just words, in that the people who repeat it over the years never expect to have to actually deal with the differences in any real way. It's just "differences", and you're supposed to try to forget that they exist. The offensive thing is not the difference, but my affrontness in bringing it up as something one would have to really gauge and deal with, yes?
But I've never seen this as a shortcoming. Just like some people like looking at paintings, and others don't, some people are drawn to one kind of Creative Agenda for RPGs, and others are drawn to others. This is what might be called… Life.
And did I say differently? I think that you might want to distance yourself from your own life and position somewhat to consider the discussion for it's merits only. I'm not your local spinster jealously guarding my social status, or the narrow-minded fanboy trying to justify my expertise. Never did I try to claim my own ways as superior, and other people's as inferior.
It's true that I'm talking about intellectuals and the commons, in a way, but I'm not the one being judgemental about it. If you think that culture doesn't have anything to do with your ability to play a strongly literary piece like Well of Souls, well, start a thread about it and we'll see.
But, again, let me be clear: I've never seen the fact that different people have different interests or tastes or desires as a shortcoming in a person. I honestly am stunned by Euro's post.
How is it not a shortcoming if you don't have the skills to do a backflip? How is it not a shortcoming if you don't have the skills to direct a protagonist in a courtly intrigue game? More importantly, what does that have to do with anything? I'm talking about communicating with players in actual play, what are you talking about, Christopher? (Rhetorical questions at this juncture, let's not derail the thread. But think about it.)
Being limited in our abilities is what the human condition is about. Trying to construe everything as "interests" and "taste" just diminishes the reality of our situation. "Sure I could be just as good as that guy over there, I'm just not interested." That might well be (90% of ability is work, after all), but it doesn't make the difference in skill go away, it's just a jealous way of diminishing the other person's achievements.
Doyce: You took my post in the spirit it was intented in. Thanks. And it seems clear that your player is on the ball, you just have to give him the equal tools to work with. How about designing some relationship situations in the forest explicitly working with him, so that he'll have an easier time to latch on during the game? In some cases I've seen in actual play the stumbling block has been the great vivacity of color and boundless realism, so that players easily misinterpret the signs and have a hard time focusing on the actually important stuff. It's much easier if you know with metaknowledge that this particular NPC is potentially friendly and a potential ally, rather than not being able to differentiate between the henchmen and actual movers of the plot. The ideal is of course to make anything the player chooses be the important thing, but at the start it could be easier to prescript a little, with player cooperation.
And ask him what the martial artists and slutty bimbos are about ;) I'm usually seeing such characters from players who really have a limited stock of models to work from to begin with, and consider them a sign of the player really just exaggerating and transforming his own cultural attributes into the game. I think that most people work rpg characters from literary models with the same tools writers use, and the ones doing the work from their own cultural background generally default to the competent swordsmen and sexy women in some form.
On 1/13/2005 at 5:03pm, Mike Holmes wrote:
RE: [Heroquest] Spring Fountain {well of souls} pt. 2
Political Correctness aside, Eero, I still think you're incorrect for other reasons. Hell, I'm about as unculturney as they come, but I think I can make a protagonist out of a PC. Basically I think that it isn't a skill issue, it is, in fact, a prefference issue. That is, the player in question probably can make a protagonist of the character in most cases, but is merely unwilling to change his style enough to do so. Uh, GNS, once again.
Actually, I think that this is the general case with players like this, and that, in fact, the problem in this case actually lies in the situation simply not having developed in a way that captures the imaginations of any of the participants with regards to the characters at hand. Call it a lack of inspiration. And I've commented about why I think this is - I think that an odd character is being wedged into a situation designed as openly as possible, but without expecting a centaur.
That is, as soon as there is something that really "turns on" the player, I think he'll respond correctly in this case. Because I think that Doyce is doing a fine job of communicating the CA here, and that it doesn't take a particularly skilled person to respond correctly (in fact it can be argued, and has been, that people are more naturally inclined to be able to naturally make "story" than to play sim). Can't say for sure, but it seems pretty likely to me.
Mike
On 1/13/2005 at 5:38pm, Ron Edwards wrote:
RE: [Heroquest] Spring Fountain {well of souls} pt. 2
Hello,
We've entered a realm of debate that is out of the Forge's scope - which is to say, what "most people" or "any people" are, or are not, capable of.
Let's return to the issue of actual play. For instance, we can take Eero's description of his fellow player as given, without any need to figure out whether it describes a group.
Best,
Ron
On 1/13/2005 at 5:39pm, Doyce wrote:
RE: [Heroquest] Spring Fountain {well of souls} pt. 2
Eero Tuovinen wrote: Doyce: You took my post in the spirit it was intented (sic) in.
Thanks. I'm not sure it shouldn't have been it's own thread entirely, but that's forum semantics I try to stay clear of. :)
And it seems clear that your player is on the ball, you just have to give him the equal tools to work with. How about designing some relationship situations in the forest explicitly working with him, so that he'll have an easier time to latch on during the game?
This is, thanks to your and others' comments, exactly the sort of thing I'm intending. Come to that, it might individually be a 'get out of the manor' session for all the characters. I just need to work out specifics. :)
On 1/13/2005 at 9:48pm, Bryan_T wrote:
RE: [Heroquest] Spring Fountain {well of souls} pt. 2
Zelana's player, who started playing a few years ago in her late 20's and has only done non-d20 when I've introduced it, has stared in astonishment at Guy's player (a long time Amber player), who's every scene involves taking volatile PCs and NPCs and purposely trying to get them into scenes with each other -- he's like a mini-GM :) There's a real strong vibe of 'why are you seeking conflicts? let the GM provide us with the conflicts' kind of confusion going on.
I can believe this from reading the character sheet. The hero has almost no really creative/active abilities--almost everything is healing or survival (with a side order of winsome maiden). She'd be a huge asset if you were running the british retreat through the khyber pass or some other gruelling survival in the face of impossible odds sort of thing..... But aside from that, the hero as written seems to have minimal hooks to let the player grab onto the story and shape it.
One possibility of course is to allow/encourage a partial character re-write, to give her more hooks.
Barring that, working with what is there.....the one thing that strikes me is the "sprit face 20" ability. Nobody else has abilities with spirits per se, and it is one of her best abilities. Given the baron's strange malady, almost inevitably someone would start muttering about heathen spirits....she could be the subject of a witch hunt, or the person making sure there are no spirits, or for that matter the person who does find the spirit that is possessing some NPC. It would help highlight the characters unique area.
Often HQ character seem to have a "centre", an area where a huge number of their abilities, personality traits, etc can potentially augment, aligned with goals and generally you can almost see the heart of the hero there. With Zelana I don't see that so much, although I get the feeling that it is intended to be woodlands existence? If you think that is where the player wants the hero to be (and it sounds like it, from the always trying to get outdoors bit), then here is another idea. For a heroquest as much support as possible is of course needed. What if she could recruit the "land" (includes animals and plants of note) as supporters? She'd have to find the spirits and convince them of the need. Their support could be a critical factor at some point in the quest.
But, eh, it is hard to say from what is written on that character sheet. I'm sure the player has passions, and passions for her hero, but they just don't come across in the write up, which was why my first thought was a second draft.
Good luck!
--Bryan