Any news on a print edition of Trollbabe? I've been very satisfied with the quality and value of the other Adept Press releases.

Pre-orders maybe?

Hi Larry,

I'd indefinitely shelved Trollbabe, as well as Demon Cops, for print editions.

From a game publishing standpoint, that's silly - the company needs a new hard-copy release every so often, and user interest in both is very high. I've even marked up both documents extensively, bringing Trollbabe up to the standards of, say, Dogs in the Vineyard (the games are very similar) and using Demon Cops as a venue for discussing how Bangs, Kicker, and Back-story are utilized in moment-to-moment decisions and interactions during play. So I think both would be profitable and useful.

So why not? Because I'm venturing into a very risky, very ambitious project. It's technically not part of the hobby, and by definition incompatible with the so-called "industry." It's why I've been reading espionage stuff (fiction, non-fiction, etc) for six months solid, and why I'll be traveling to Berlin in December. I'm planning on launching a new website which isn't really going to be connected to role-playing material except in one small corner, perhaps by July.

The project (working title is SPIONE: STORY NOW IN COLD WAR BERLIN) is taking all my time and effort, and bluntly, I'm kind of tired of writing for gamers. There is now a whole crew of people who literally didn't exist, professionally speaking, before the Forge started up, and this crew is damn good at it. Capes, Universalis, My Life with Master, Shadow of Yesterday, Primetime Adventures, Dogs in the Vineyard, etc ... the so-called "industry" continues to flail around in its little clubhouse of debt, but now there's a real industry where there wasn't before. Real role-playing exists as a business now, and in some ways, I have a very strong "My work here is done" sensation about it. What can I contribute with Demon Cops and Trollbabe? Not much. Especially not when SPIONE is a major effort and every day lost is a real setback.

On the other hand, the recent Meatbot Massacre discussion warms my profiteering, money-loving heart. Should I step back to Trollbabe and brush it up? After all, the notes and corrections are written. I even have a few more illustrations already. More than one person has offered to do the layout. Publishing through Lulu or similar companies is easy as pie. And if I do the "buy in" tactic, it'll make me feel good along the way. H'mmmm.

I'm not sure.

Best,
Ron

Wow.

You know, once I've pegged you as the "Innovative, but more down-to-earth compared to the newcomers" guy, you do something that just knocks me off my feet. SPIONE? Cold war Berlin? Espionage? Divergent from the hobby in a way moreso than Univeralis? 6 Months and a trip to Europe research?

I really have no fucking clue what you're planning, and its really exhilirating.

I can understand your sentiment about the hobby. I have a lot of definite baggage with roleplaying, that's always been a major force in spurning me on with a sense of "I can do so much better." or just draining my energy "Gawd, no matter what it is they're just going to say 'I swing at it!'", And I must have 1/10th of Ron's expiereince in much fewer aspects of the hobby.

I personally think that Demon Cops and Trollbabe have some very valuable stuff within them, and for me they're in the perfect package for the "Liked-roleplaying-but-was-left-unsatisfied." crowd, for their comparitive traditional set up compared to Capes/Univeralis/MlwM etc. Of course, this is offset with the fact that I really want to run them and having a print/updated version of them would be a really sweet deal.

But hey, tell us more about that project, does it have anything to do with some sort of advancement of Narrativism? Is it within the collabortive fiction idea? What form will the product be in?

Hello Ron,

Ron Edwards wrote: The project (working title is SPIONE: STORY NOW IN COLD WAR BERLIN) is taking all my time and effort, and bluntly, I'm kind of tired of writing for gamers.

Hi Jesse,

Actually, I feel the same way about the print copy for Trollbabe. Let's leave the discussion of Spione for now, and talk about that (it's the thread topic, after all).

1. Timing - could I get it out in time for GenCon? Answer: almost certainly.

2. Cost - can I afford it? Answer: absolutely.

3. Marketing - should I pull an "invest in Trollbabe" scheme along the lines of Meatbot Massacre? Answer: h'mmm, maybe. I don't think I'd do the "free after that" though, which is awesome for MM, not so much for Trollbabe, I think (especially not hard copy).

4. Format - should it be a PDF/print combo like My Life with Master? Answer: yes. I should have done this with Elfs too.

5. Problem - will publishing a new version of Trollbabe interfere with the crucial Spione project? Answer: yes. The real question is, will it unacceptably interfere? Answer: not if you guys help out.

I'll need:

- awesome, unproblematic layout in which the person who does it obeys me unquestioningly, and without "fixing" it. Trollbabe should not look like an RPG; efficiency in packing words onto a page is absolutely counter-productive.

- indexing and table-of-contenting without hassles. So far, every single book I've done has been a nightmare for this, except Sex & Sorcery (that was Michael Miller's doing).

- critical reading and proofing, from people who know what I'm after and can help realize that vision without bringing in fix-its for the Sim-by-habit crowd.

- a bit more art. That's a real time sink if I'm not careful.

But hey ... I'm starting to be convinced. Thoughts, help, suggestions?

Best,
Ron

Hi Ron,

I absolutely love TB, and would also love to see hit print. I'd be willing to break out my old ink and brush, brush up my drawing skills again and donate art on top of all that to help it happen.

Chris

First: I like Trollbabe from reading it, but it's true that the game is starting to feel a little dated (or rather, unfinished, perhaps?) as compared to the latest batch of similar designs. Mechanics-wise, that is - the color is top-notch, and unparalleled in the genre of fantasy-for-beginners. (Perhaps I'd like to see just a little bit more of the world as GM inspiration, but the comics do that job quite well...)

Thus, I'd like to see a new version, too. Here's what I've got:

Ron Edwards wrote:
- awesome, unproblematic layout in which the person who does it obeys me unquestioningly, and without "fixing" it. Trollbabe should not look like an RPG; efficiency in packing words onto a page is absolutely counter-productive.

- indexing and table-of-contenting without hassles. So far, every single book I've done has been a nightmare for this, except Sex & Sorcery (that was Michael Miller's doing).

- a bit more art. That's a real time sink if I'm not careful.

Hey Ron,

4. Format - should it be a PDF/print combo like My Life with Master? Answer: yes. I should have done this with Elfs too.

You saw the conversation about my financial chart? Ralph's data suggests that he's suffered no loss of sales relative to MLwM for not having a pdf version of Universalis.

Paul

Hi Paul,

I did see the chart, but I'm dubious about that particular conclusion - at least about how it might apply to Trollbabe. This game has really strong international sales and a lot of people tend not to want to pay for shipping across the seven seas. They seem to appreciate the PDF download greatly.

Also, I'm thinking that my default approach to PDF/print might be that the person simply buys the game, period, and gets both. If they want just the PDF, then that becomes sort of an add-on (subtract-off?) option. But I don't think I'll offer them as two distinct products, each with its own price.

Best,
Ron

OK, I'm about 95% convinced to go forward with the Trollbabe project. Not all my decisions are over, but here's what I'll need ...

Say, twenty more illustrations. Maybe some of the comics illustrators might be interested.

A layout guy, who also understands how to format the cover and all that stuff (very colorful, not easy). And a separate index guy. Readers, proofers, bitchers.

I've already received multiple messages and offers which lead me to believe all of the above are available.

Oh yeah! And a commitment to actual play over the next month or two. Everyone should go and play a ton of Trollbabe right now, using the revised Social rules (e.g. Tha's number is 3, hence her Magic is 4-10, her Fighting is 1-2, and her Social is 1-3 ... not 3-10). Find out everything that's right or wrong with it, and post like demons.

The investment plan - specifically and only for paying all the helpers! See how it works? Either you help (e.g. draw a picture, etc), or you toss in some money to pay the helper.

That means the next step is setting the freelancer budget, which means finding out how much people are going to need to be paid (need, not want, you greedy fucks). I can post that amount and people can see how they're helping the whole thing happen.

What kind of payoff for the donators? I'm tempted to say, without you it wouldn't happen, so give yourselves a gold star, but that would suck ... and free copies of the final book are counterproductive, you don't give product to the fan base, that's moronic. So h'm. Something though.

I'll of course foot the bill for printing and everything else. I figure I'll handle all the commerce through Indie Press Revolution, since they've done a great job with Elfs and Sorcerer books so far.

This could happen! Thoughts, suggestions, ideas?

Best,
Ron

I am really more interested in seeing a nice printed edition of Trollbabe because I think it is a unique work that can appeal to non-gamers (especially women) and mature, open-minded gamers. The sort of thing I'd like to have lying on my coffee table. Ron Edwards has a serious talent for presenting gender issues in a way that is neither dry nor overly academic, and Trollbabe seems like a nice, nonthreatening way to entice certain people to consider certain ideas that they otherwise wouldn't.

Sex & Sorcerer is great, but it's still really a product for gamers. Trollbabe gets my nod as a product that could have a broader appeal than the usual nerd ghetto. And PDFs and laser-printed copies just reek of geek fetish.

I am less interested in Trollbabe for the mechanics or any other gamer-ly goodness. I mean, I am interested in those things, but they aren't anything I can't already glean from the PDF. Similarly, while a Demon Cops redux with a whole new batch of Ron's juicy gaming tips would be pretty neat, if resources are so pressed that the release of even one of these is a maybe, I'll cheer for Trollbabe.

Besides, you did a print edition of Elfs. Don't tell me you're more proud of Elfs than Trollbabe.


As far as what I can do, I, uh, can proof like nobody's business.

Hi Larry,

Well, you're certainly nailing the design/theme goals for the game, as well as my own personal vision for what it would be like as a physical and social object.

Trollbabe sits on coffee table. Male guest idly leafs through it. Other guest, his wife, makes "suspicious cheerleader" face, then sees illustration by, say, Rod Anderson and gets the "neutral interest" look instead. Dinner, socializing proceed, talk centers on mutual acquaintances and the Oscars ... wife is spotted shortly thereafter leafing through Trollbabe, and she asks, "What is this? Is it like a game of some kind?"

I'm fairly comfortable with the presentation of those goals through the actual content of the text and illustrations, but if you have any interest in improving it from that angle, then let me know.

Best,
Ron

P.S. If you haven't already, check out Trollbabe, feminism, and the chain mail bikini.

Ron, as the guy who did the current layout for Trollbabe, I've got to point out some concerns.

I know your vision for the game. I also know your vision wasn't fulfilled as you'd hoped.

That's because I had a very difficult time mimicking, say, artbooks because the text is linear and connected.

Art books work because each page of content speaks for itself. I was never satisfied with Trollbabe's layout because pages 12-17 (or whatever) could not stand on their own with an illustration. The text -- the content and the amount of the letters themselves -- resists.

Artbooks of the kind that inspired you have the wonder of space and brevity of parceled content. The Trollbabe text would have to be hammered and beaten into each of those layouts in an extremely clever way.

I'm saying: Round peg, square hole. The content you have and the form you want it in are in many ways incompatible. Very difficult layout, I think. Thought so then, too! It was the most difficult vision I was presented with as a layout guy doing indie games. But, also, some of the best vision and direction.

So, I'd consider working on it with you. But, that's up to you, too. Whoever does it will have to do some serious consideration of content and form. It isn't about capturing the beauty of those awesome art books. It's about understanding and presenting the content in new, special and unique way. Good luck on the poor bastard.

Hello,

Actually, Matt, the PDF layout works well. I don't have major concerns with it and don't consider you to have failed.

Tell me more about the parcelling. I don't think I quite get it; the art books I'm thinking of had a lot of essay and interview text that went from page to page.

Best,
Ron

RE: "maybe some of the comic artists would be interested"

I'm in.

Ron may remember my first contact with him was an email expressing my disappointment that I had discovered Trollbabe too late to have contributed artwork to it, and he followed up with the offer to do one of the comics. So I'd jump at the chance to help with the rulebook.

Yeah, Ron, I don't consider it a failure, either. Just that it can be improved.


Ok, parceling ...

Open an art book. Any page. Any order. You get what you need out of it. One page-spread alone is enough to walk away with an interest in the artist. You browse, you wonder. It's non-linear. It's also not especially interactive. That is, there isn't anything you do with the book besides stare and drool.

You probably want the same process to happen in Trollbabe to LURE people.

Now, you rightly bring up essays in art books. Good point. That absolutely compares to the Trollbabe text, although I'm less certain each essay compares to the whole of the TB text (maybe to a chapter-like division).

My point is that to really use Trollbabe, "interactively" you should read the text through. And, that's a different process than opening to page 42, then flipping to that awesome chick-on-dinosaur picture, maybe reading an essay or whatever. Then, coming back to the book 3 weeks later after turning off the TV.

So, how do you design for that? How do you design the layout so that, say, The Girlfriend browses it three or four times. And THEN she likes it enough that she reads the damn thing.

How, for example, can you do it so that page 42 (or whatever page) has a small parcel of text that really grabs her and says "Geez! I should read this whole thing. That paragraph explanation was really interesting. I always loved that picture, now I see it has all this other stuff related to it!"

In design, those are called entry points. They are things designers do to grab a reader into the content. Pull quotes do that. Illustrations can. Large "drop capitals" do that. Cutlines do that. Etc.

Making any sense?

Hi Matt,

I've really thought about that sort of layout/design myself a bit. As someone with 3 shelves of artbooks, I'd say:

-Art on every page, or at least visible between any 2 page spread
-Short, well broken up sections. Everything on a particular topic should be on the same 2 page spread.
-Color is expensive, but it is a (big) plus. A more reasonable price option might be a duotone instead of full color.

Some good potential examples of high art + text:

The School Book of Sorcerers' Apprentice, Katherine Quenot Civiello

-A Heavy Metal Book that reads like a lite encyclopedia of magic, with lots of beatiful artwork. The artwork also tends to break up the text and never lets it fall into the monotony of columns.

Yolk Magazine

-Basically a fashion magazine aimed at asians, but like all fashion magazines you have text interspersed with, or on top of imagery, lots of bright colors, and "pop" to every page.

Chris

I understand totally what Matt's saying about layout for casual reading, but the question is, how relevant is that now? That kind of layout won't happen with any old text, the whole material has to be worked into overlapping partial vignette form.

The point is, it's up to Ron to decide if he's going to make that investment (in his own time or other's). Unless he's willing to rethink the whole structure of the book, it's not wise to plan for a real art book layout. (The optimal requirements, as I see it, would have the book taking 30%-50% more pages and at least 20% more text compared to a linear deal, when you take into account the white space, art, increased examples and greatly increased redundancy. I'm not talking cut-and-paste changes here.) It's a completely different writing paradigm compared to a linear engineering manual, which Trollbabe currently resembles more (in structure, not style). Better to work towards something more linear, perhaps.

And I agree with Ron, the current layout is good. Very good. It has everything you could expect when the text still is written for zero redundancy and linear chapters. (I'd perhaps handled the examples a little differently, but that's peanuts.) In that regard there's no pressure at all.

But anyway, great to hear that Trollbabe's coming in book form. I'll try to make some time for playing it at some point. Perhaps after the HQ adventure we have going. Or perhaps I could go harass some high school girls for a game...

Um.

Well, as long as we're talking about this, maybe I should clarify what I mean by "art book." Back in the 1970s, you could buy art books about people like Chris Achilleos or Frank Frazetta, or sometimes a group of such artists. They were almost always perfect-bound paperbacks, about the size of a smallish standard-size RPG, what most comics people would think of as a typically-sized graphic novel.

There were full-page spreads ("plates"), and lots of black-and-white half-pages sharing space with text. Because there was a lot of text; these were books, not albums. Interviews, perspectives, essays, sometimes poems, all kinds of text.

Matt actually came pretty close to this with his PDF layout. I'm inclined, Matt, to have you really kick out the jams with a new version for the book, especially with a larger font and lots and lots more pictures.

So, yes, more text (with examples, Eero; your posts from last year are not forgotten), and a hell of a lot more art. I also think a better lead-in might be a good idea, as well as selected comic strip stories. The ones with interpretable endings, just so Ralph and Jesse don't start steam-kettling at me.

Best,
Ron

Hi Ron -

I regard Trollbabe as the product on the Forge with far and away the most mass-market potential. What I would do with it may curdle your stomach, though. I would get cutie, glitzy art and market the thing at 12 year old girls. Or actually market it at 16 year old girls so that twelve year old girls will buy it.

In other words, it's the successful D&D and Vampire strategy: sell that fucker as gear. Get someone who knows how to write for young people to edit it for you and get hollywood cartoon style art, or actually a slightly weird, offbeat version of hollywood cartoon style art. James West might be a good choice in terms of the local crew.

The thing is, the system is simple enough, and the story focus strong enough, that the 'gear' would have good potential to actually get played as a game.

I think the window for this is fairly narrow - there's a 'Trollz' cartoon coming out this spring (www.trollz.com) that aims at a similar market, so the aesthetic will probably be lame again in 2-3 years - but I think if you struck while the iron was hot and got this thing into Borders, Wal-mart, and Toys-R-Us you could be making a fat load of change. Which would allow you to fulfill your lifelong dream of visiting me in Michigan and training me to run Sorcerer better.

Take care,

Sean

Ron: So you're thinking like the Paper Tiger books? Those rocked. I owned a number of those back in college when I thought I was going to be an illustrator, before I gave up and decided I'd be a Latin professor, and then switched course from that to information technology & programming, and then started thinking about closing the circle again and going back to illustration.

Paper Tiger is still going strong after all these years...

http://www.papertiger.co.uk/imprint/papertiger/index.jsp

http://www.unicorngarden.com/ptbks1.htm

I suggest including the Trollbabe comics with annotations in the book too.

As well as working closely with specific, paid, talented, real artists will you be opening the door to art donations like Clinton did with Donjon and TSOY?

Our trollbabes really captured my imagination in play. I'm sure I'm not the only person who'd like try a few drawings and cross my fingers for luck that one of them might just "work" when it comes time for your final layout.

Hi Tony,

YES. I've always tried hard for my games to represent inspiration and break-in for artists, not just expert workhorses.

Trollbabe is perfectly suited for art from the heart, and I'd like that to be apparent in this book.

Best,
Ron

Clinton opened the door to art donations?

Can you point me to that thread? I was going to ask Clinton something about that and it sounds like I may have just missed out on something already being mentioned...

ejh wrote: Clinton opened the door to art donations?

Can you point me to that thread? I was going to ask Clinton something about that and it sounds like I may have just missed out on something already being mentioned...

What are the chances that it will have any of: hard cover, glossy pages, interior color art, art that crosses two-page spread, pages captioned along the lines of TSoY?

I really do like the idea of either having every two-page spread contain art and text in a self-contained module or made up of titled essays of some kind. I'd have more direct suggestions if I could find my damn copy of the game.

And have you thought any more about the investor perspective?

Hello,

No hard cover. Glossy pages cost too fucking much. I might have the covers be real glossy.

Interior color art? Probably not. Two-page spreads? Absolutely. Everything you're saying about the essay or topic-based association of words and art is very much on-track with my plans.

I'm a big believer in meaningful captioning ... please see the Sorcerer books, for example, which I think feature the most useful captioning in all role-playing texts. The Trollbabe book should be equally navigable.

Best,
Ron

What about size? I guess when I think artbook I think squarish. Does an odd page size (like 8"x 8") really drive up the cost?

Presently, my Platonic ideal for a RPG cum coffee-table "hey look at me" book resembles Nobilis 2e.

Something resembling a hip graphic novel would probably be good too, if this square book thing is impractical.

Hiya,

Funny sizes cost money. I pay a lot extra for the Sorcerer dimensions, for example. I'd really like the Trollbabe size to be one step up from standard, but I'm not sure I can afford that. This is supposed to be a painless project ...

Don't start me on Nobilis 2nd edition. This is not the same kind of project. My plan for Trollbabe is very much more in the Paper Tiger model, insofar as I can get away with it using white pages.

(Cue ninety PMs asking "what wrong with Nobilis 2e?" Drop it, guys. We're talking about Trollbabe.)

Best,
Ron

If you want investors to pay for art, one thing the investors might get is some rights to the work, or perhaps the original. I know that won't work for lots of situations, but it might for some and might be an enticement for some investors.

Hello,

Christopher, through no fault of your own, your input is frustrating to read. Adept Press has been 'way ahead of the game for most of these points you're bringing up.

I never buy art. I only lease it. The whole issue of "allowing artists to retain the rights" is bullshit, because as far as I'm concerned, only they own the art from day one, forever. I never own it and as such, never have rights to it. I'm paying to use it, only. It's the standard Adept deal.

I appreciate your input, but really - 'way ahead of you.

Best,
Ron

Umm...I think he was suggesting having the Investors get the art...not the artists. Something along the lines of "pay in advance and get entered into a raffle to win the original cover art signed by the artist" type stuff.

What Ralph said. But more like if I pay $100 for a piece of pen'n'ink that spans the top half of a two-page spread, maybe I get the original -- rather than a raffle (though that's a great idea too), Ron gets art for the game, the artist gets 100 bucks and retains most of the rights.

Hello,

Ah. I did misunderstand, but actually, the real suggestion is even more unacceptable than what I'd perceived.

I'll never do anything with Adept Press that violates basic creator ownership. "Rights" to art (pictures, prose, etc) will never be transferred, negotiated, rearranged, or anything else.

Here's the application that makes the most sense to me - the investor might receive a nice print of the artwork they like the most. This would, however, have to be negotiated by the artist, not by me.

Best,
Ron

Have there been many bites from illustrators willing to do art on this?

I'd be interested in hearing what they are willing to offer and what they'll offer it for (compensation-wise).

Being new at this and knowing a few other illustrators as well, I know some of us would roll up our sleeves and hammer out a lot of art for next to nothing (including comp copies and simple credited work). The competition is pretty brutal for some of us at this point and whetever builds a reputation for good work, on time (if not before), and offer competitive rates is worth $$$ to us in the long run.

Just a thought guys.

For some of us, work like this for cheap is a worthwhile investment.

Hi, I've just discovered this thread - I really hope this goes ahead.

I'm one of those international buyers who really appreciates it having been available in pdf form - I wouldn't have taken the risk to buy it in print. It was my gateway drug - on the strength of it's quality, I've consumed many of the indie games produced in that non-euclidean dimension* known as the Forge, and Trollbabe is still my favourite.
As someone else said, I think this game has great potential for wide appeal.

* I understand that exposure to the Forge has a similar effect on the mind to those books mentioned by HP Lovecraft. I sometimes feel that way after browsing through arcane GNS discussions anyway, and shudder at the damage being done to my sanity from my upwardly creeping Forge Mythos skill. :)

Darren