Hello, my name is Anna. I've been gaming for around 2 years. I am working on my masters degree, & I plan on analyzing role playing games from a performance/literary/rhetorical standpoint for my final thesis project.

So here are some questions for as many of you who want to answer:

1. Do you think that rpgs as a form are open to minorities, women, & the alternative sexualities? Do you think that as a form, RPGS can lead to a multi-voiced discourse/setting/game/narrative? Which rpgs in particular?

2. Are there any rpg systems written/created by a minority, woman, or homosexual? (The only system I am familiar with is Nobilius, created by a woman)

3. Can I get a survey of the gender & ethnicity of some gamers out there? Also, if anyone is willing to share, sexual orientation? (If this question is too private, I understand. I am not trying to out or insult anyone. Only answer this question if you feel comfortable doing so.)

These questions are not limited to pen & paper games; LARPing & computer/online games can be included, but keep them to a minimum. My primary interest is currently pen & paper gaming.

I am aking these questions becuase it has been my (limited) experience that most gamers are white men, as I am one of the four women gamers I know, and I know only one African American male gamer and three homosexual gamers.

I do not seek to demonize white male gamers or system writers, I am interested in just the opposite. I am attempting to argue in my thesis that the RPG form is open to a more diverse participation, and I need more information in order to formulate that argument.

I would truly appreciate some thoughts from any of you out there. Since this site primarily deals with independent systems, I thought that it would be the most apropriate forum for my questions. This would help my research out immensely. Thanks!

Hi,

You might be interested in checking out this mail list:

http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/RoleplayersOfColor/

Some of the folks there will be able to help you, also I believe a few of them are also aware of some women's list groups that serve the same purpose.

Chris

Welcome to the Forge, Anna

There was a recent thread about women game designers RPGs being design by women.

As far as minority game designers go, the two famous ones I can think of are MAR Barker (Tekumel) and Mike Pondsmith (Cyberpunk, Castle Falkenstein, Mekton, Teenagers from Outer Space.) I know we have others here at the Forge, too.

This is a fascinating topic, and I wish I had more to say about it.

yrs--
--Ben

1) I don't see there is any problem with RPGs as a form being diverse. However, the current gaming (sub-)culture is not. I did a study of this recently, in my article Gender Roles in RPG Texts.

2) Very few RPGs have female authors, but there are a few. The few include "Darksword Adventures" (co-authored by Margaret Weis); "Nobilis" (by Rebecca Sean Borgstrom); and "The Secret Lives of Gingerbread Men" and "Run Robot Red" (by Annie Rush). Several games from White Wolf include female co-authors. "Changeling: The Dreaming" includes by Jackie Cassada, Angel Leigh McCoy, and Nicky Rea among 12 authors. "Exalted" includes Dana Habecker and Sheri M. Johnson among 9 authors. "Orpheus" includes Genevieve Cogman and Ellen Kiley among 11 authors. "Vampire: The Dark Ages" has co-author Jennifer Hartshorn. This is going only by names. There may, of course, be female authors using only initials or male names.

It's much harder to tell whether an author is homosexual, of course. Steve Kenson (author of Mutants & Masterminds) is openly so, I think (at least, his website reports that he lives with his partner Christopher). I'm not aware offhand of others, but it's not information which is readily available.

3) I know of some gender data on gamers, but none on sexual orientation or ethnicity. See my website article on demographics:
http://www.darkshire.net/~jhkim/rpg/whatis/demographics.html

I'd love to do a survey with more demographics, but it should be done on a large scale with many purposes in mind. A small survey doesn't say very much. For what it's worth, I'm a more-or-less straight, half-Asian/half-Caucasian male.

am wrote: 1. Do you think that rpgs as a form are open to minorities, women, & the alternative sexualities? Do you think that as a form, RPGS can lead to a multi-voiced discourse/setting/game/narrative?

2. Are there any rpg systems written/created by a minority, woman, or homosexual?

3. Can I get a survey of the gender & ethnicity of some gamers out there?

Anna,

If you are up for a bit of reading, here is a link to a post where Ben Lehman has compiled a list of many of the gender discussions at the Forge. None of these topics will directly address your questions, but they may be of interest to you.

Julie

am wrote: 3. Can I get a survey of the gender & ethnicity of some gamers out there?

If looking specifically at RPG creators, you could also go to Pen & Paper's Creator database and look for feminine names. Not scientific, but a place to start.

Also, reveiws of Green Ronin's Blue Rose indicate that it addresses homophobia and related gender concerns within its game world. Not sure if that will help you.

Emily Dresner had a series of articles on women in gaming in Pyramid Online back in the late nineties. They'll still be accessible in the archives of Pyramid Online (requires subscription).

Finally, for commentary on real world sexual issues and their impact on gaming, you should read the Sex & Sorcery for Sorcerer. Ron knows his stuff.

Thanks to everyone for such great referencing!!

I request that answering the call for personal descriptions be confined to private messaging, and that the discussion here be focused on AM's questions #1 and #2.

However, obviously, if personal information is relevant to either of these issues, then sure, toss it in. I'm not barring its presence, but rather keeping the thread from becoming a list of "I'm X" announcements based on question #3.

Best,
Ron

Hi am,

I'm fascinated by question #1. Like greyorm, I'm looking for a clarification on this.

My brain gets stuck on this: painting, as a form, "are open to minorities, women, & the alternative sexualities." Same with film, plays, novels and so on. I'm curious what you see about the nature of RPGs makes this a viable question.

Also, with the second half of the quesion, ("Do you think that as a form, RPGS can lead to a multi-voiced discourse/setting/game/narrative?") -- it seems to me that to have people of different voices (and, even white males have different voices) playing in the same game, is to a discourse, setting, game and narrative shaped by these different voices.

Thus, all you would need is a bunch of players along the spectrum of your agenda (and I've played with lots of women (often at a 1:1 ratio) gays and minorities -- so yeah. I think as a form it can do what you're asking. But I can't be sure yet, because I may not be grasping what you mean.

Now, whether or not everyone at the table feel comfortable bringing up issues that they feel most passionate about, or reflect their points of view and so on -- is another issue.

I think some games do this better than others. (And here I would say that many of the games in the Indie Game Forums below are the games I'm speaking about -- because the majority of them are designed to put into motion issues the players care about.)

But the other great factor would be the group itself. The RPG experience begins with the people and why they want to play together. This gets funneled through RPGs "as a form."

You might really want to check out The Provisional Glossery ( http://indie-rpgs.com/_articles/glossary.html ), and look over the discussion of The Big Model in particular. (note the link to the PDF file which shows The Big Model.)

I think you'll find that The Big Model my provide you with clues for what you're digging for in new ways.

Christopher

I plan on doing most of my major research over the summer, so everyone's reading suggestions will help a great deal.

To anwser greyorn: multi-voiced discourse or narrative would be exactly like a campaign: multiple voices represented in a story as in people with different backgrounds, genders, races, the GLBT community, and yes, even religions & socioeconomic factors. I am interested in how role-playing could put some of these diverse people in discussion with each other, using fantasy/sci-fi as a setting.

I got this term from Mikhail Bakhtin, a Russian literary theorist who wrote in the 1930s. He uses multi-voiced, or polyphonic discourse, to discuss the novel as a form, stating that the novel, as opposed to drama, or poetry, allows for multiple voices to be represented through the voices of the characters. The only problem I have with this theory is that there is only one author of a book (usually). I wanted to explore this theory using RPGS because they have multiple authors creating a story with diverse characters.

The problem I came up with was from my limited experience playing with mostly straight white men, which limits the scope of this type of multi-voiced discourse. I wanted to ask more experienced gamers their opinion regarding diversiry in campaigns, and to find out more information to add to my limited gaming experience.

I hope that answers some questions, and that everyone gets where I'm coming from.

Again, thank you all for your opinions, information, and especially the reading list that's being formed on this forum! This is exactly what I needed!
~ Anna

am wrote: 1. Do you think that rpgs as a form are open to minorities, women, & the alternative sexualities? Do you think that as a form, RPGS can lead to a multi-voiced discourse/setting/game/narrative? Which rpgs in particular?

3. Can I get a survey of the gender & ethnicity of some gamers out there? Also, if anyone is willing to share, sexual orientation? (If this question is too private, I understand. I am not trying to out or insult anyone. Only answer this question if you feel comfortable doing so.)

You might want to also take a look at the forums on RPG.net, particularly Roleplaying Open (for RPG questions) and Tangency (for personal questions). RPG.net seems to have quite a few gaymers.

As far as your question about game designers goes, I know of Cynthia Celeste Miller (of Cartoon Action Hour fame). White Wolf has a long tradition of being (mostly) gay-friendly, but I can't speak to specific writers or artists.

These questions are not limited to pen & paper games; LARPing & computer/online games can be included, but keep them to a minimum. My primary interest is currently pen & paper gaming.

Hi Anna,

Thanks for the explantion of your first question. (And clearly I misunderstood it completely on my first post.)

I'd have to say, then, that RPGs are unique in their ability to contain and present many voices and points of view -- if only because, if the group wants it, so many voices can be heard clearly.

I'd add that it seems strange to me that a novel would be considered better at this than a play. Some novels have only one limited narrator -- while plays are full of characters with their own agendas.

But as far as RPGs go, yes.

Christopher

Anna,

Will you be considering how this discourse is affected by the particular way in which roleplaying games allow you to walk in somebody else's shoes? I know I've learned a lot about different ethnicities simply by making the effort to play a non-white character and do a little research for the role.

My weekly P&P group consists of three men (two caucasian, one pacific islander) and two women (caucasian).

Anna,

Whiterat brought up a point that makes me wonder how the word "performance" is intended in your initial post.

Are you talking about performance in the feminist sense of gender as a social construction, in which our notions of "man" and "woman" are performed? Personally, I find a lot to like in the theory of performativity, and it brings up an interesting question: If, for instance, a male roleplayer chooses to play a female character, does he in fact become more aware of his everyday performance of a gender role, or is the roleplaying experience somehow kept distinct from his constructed identity?

One other thing: in your first question, you used the word "form" (RPGs as a medium) but on a practical level you seem to be interested in the social contract between roleplayers. Isn't that going to vary from group to group (and from game to game within the same group)? It seems to me that you're really looking for trends in roleplaying; in which case I'd agree with Tony--GenCon or Origins would be good places to conduct your research.

am wrote: To anwser greyorn: multi-voiced discourse or narrative would be exactly like a campaign: multiple voices represented in a story as in people with different backgrounds, genders, races, the GLBT community, and yes, even religions & socioeconomic factors. I am interested in how role-playing could put some of these diverse people in discussion with each other, using fantasy/sci-fi as a setting.

I got this term from Mikhail Bakhtin, a Russian literary theorist who wrote in the 1930s. He uses multi-voiced, or polyphonic discourse, to discuss the novel as a form, stating that the novel, as opposed to drama, or poetry, allows for multiple voices to be represented through the voices of the characters.

Liz Henry wrote: Ede and Lunsford point out that most of the collaborations they studied depend on a rigidly structured hierarchy, which results in high efficiency in producing a final textual result. According to Ede and Lunsford, in collaboration that is focused on productivity and efficiency, "the realities of multiple voices and shifiting authority are seen as difficulties to be overcome or resolved." They associate this hierarchical structure in part with male gender, calling it "a masculine mode of discourse."

Ede and Lunsford assert the existence of an alternate method of collaborative writing which exemplifies Bakhtin's concept of the dialogic; in dialogic mode, the group is loosely structured, authority and goals are fluid, and the process or experience of writing and collaboration is valued over the result, end goal, or textual product. Ede and Lunsford think of this mode as predominantly feminine (133).

I am latinó, so I assume that there are other people out there that are interested in pen and paper RPGs. However, I live in NC, and there aren't really any other people in my community interested in RPGs (that I know of).

Um... Trollbabe? I'm hard pressed to come up with a game that's more blatantly feminist.

White Wolf, to my knowledge, was the first company to aggressively alternate between masculine and feminine personal pronouns in cases of indeterminate gender, realizing that pendantically correct English usage was rather less important than actively inviting female gamers. I think this is a more significant milestone than it might seem. Many other texts have since followed suit.

I've seen reasonably diverse participation in RPGA events, should you not be able to locate a gaming convention.

What I mean by form could maybe be understood as system.
I am not talking about diverse groups and their particular experiences of swocial contracts, but more so looking at RPGs as a form of literature; i.e. as opposed to a novel, a play, or a poem.
I think that RPGs can be seen as a literary form, similar to a novel, but very different at the same time.
Does that clarify what I meant by form?

To Whiterat: yes, walking in someone else's shoes is something I would consider for a possiblity for RPGs to play with.

To paulkdad: yes yes yes! I am very interested in my other studies separate from roleplaying in how gender is performed in our everyday lives. I am in Performance Studies and that is a huge part of our studies, especially Judith Butler and her notions of performativity.
Gender & performativity are not the only things that attract me to RPGs. I love studying the performance of literature. The construction of a shared story through a sort of performance (players talking out, or performing, what the characters say) attracts me just as much.
And your question regarding cross gender role playing...well, I don't know. I've never known anyone who has played cross gender & I have never tried it myself, in a RPG, I mean. I have played men in theater, and that does draw attention to how I perform my gender in my everyday life (not to stray too far from topic). Since I've had that experience in theater, I do not doubt the relevance it would have in RPGs. I may have to experiment with that.

Damn, these posts are awesome y'all! Thanks so much!

am wrote: To paulkdad: yes yes yes! I am very interested in my other studies separate from roleplaying in how gender is performed in our everyday lives. I am in Performance Studies and that is a huge part of our studies, especially Judith Butler and her notions of performativity.
Gender & performativity are not the only things that attract me to RPGs. I love studying the performance of literature. The construction of a shared story through a sort of performance (players talking out, or performing, what the characters say) attracts me just as much.

WhiteRat wrote: I LARP with about 20 to 30 people, all caucasian, and about 1 in 6 female. The group includes at least four homosexual men, and one woman who roleplays a male character.

WhiteRat:
I've never LARPed, because of limited exposure. I only know one person where I live who does it, and I have considered joining, but I barely have enough time anymore to play even pen & paper.
I'll have to look into it, cause I'm really curoius.
~ Anna

Anna,

Given this:

am wrote: What I mean by form could maybe be understood as system ...I think that RPGs can be seen as a literary form, similar to a novel, but very different at the same time.

am wrote: 1. Do you think that rpgs as a form are open to minorities, women, & the alternative sexualities? Do you think that as a form, RPGS can lead to a multi-voiced discourse/setting/game/narrative? Which rpgs in particular?

am wrote: I've never known anyone who has played cross gender & I have never tried it myself, in a RPG, I mean. I have played men in theater, and that does draw attention to how I perform my gender in my everyday life

You might find this list of Studies About Fantasy Role-Playing Games useful.

The list Wysardry mentions is good, but lacking prcatically all material from the Nordic area (Kellomäki's thesis, the Nordic larp studies yearbooks, etc.) some of which may be very useful on this issue: Works like Hutchison's article in Dissecting Larp (2005), "Larp organizing and gender in Norway", provide actual statistical info on gender divisions, some of which might be good for comparison, if nothing else.

DL should be online within a couple of months, the previous years' yearbooks are already available on the net.

-Jiituomas

I've never known anyone who has played cross gender & I have never tried it myself, in a RPG, I mean.

Mike Holmes wrote: I'd say that RPGs have been far more open to minorities and women coming aboard than, say, golf has. Not that it's completely egalitarian, not by far. Cheesecake covers and Wild West games where the Indians are there to shoot still do exist.

It seems to me that the real question would be how egalitarian the form is as compares other such forms with similar origins. To the extent that worldwide it's still "a man's world" to some extent, and that's only getting fixed slowly, RPGs are just another case of these things changing for the most part. Given how far it's come in only three decades of existence, I'd say that it's done better than most forms.

I have to admit that I'm a little jaded about the issue of whether or not RPG's allow room for women to participate. (I cannot really address the issue of minorities, since I am not one.) I have seen this question raised multiple times with varying arguments and explanations. Since I'm a gamer, it seems to be a moot point for me. One of these days I'd like to see someone address the issue of why gamers perpetuate the existance of single sex play groups. That to me seems to be a more interesting issue.

Julie

The question, Julie, cannot be whether or not females are allowed to participate, but whether or not they feel that they have a voice to say "female" things when playing. You play with Ron, and so undoubtedly this is the case for you. So, again, the question can't also be whether or not there are some small number who have a voice in RPGs (this is also obviously true) but whether RPGs overall have a 50% female voice. And, for minorities, whether they have a proportional voice.

John, as it happens (and I don't know if you're a member or not), the subject of male/female ratios is being discussed on the CAR-RPGa list recently, and some folks, Paul Cardwell included, pointed out how all of the methods used to identify female gamers that you mention have been badly skewed. And how more accurate sources show larger percentages of female players. This also depends on your definition of RPGs to some extent - does it include LARP? Freeform? Online play? If it includes the latter, the numbers go up pretty substantially. On the recent thread about Freeforms somebody estimated that female players are more than 50% of the population (annecdotal, of course, but to even have a limited experience in that range seems telling).

I'm certainly not saying that I think that a broad look at RPGs as a whole comes up 50% female - I think it's still far less than that. But any assessment of whether or not this is a good rate of advancement or not is neccessarily relative. I'm sure we can both point to fields (forms to use the poster's term) where females and minorities have come to be proportionally incorporated, and others where they have very little voice. Sans hard data on the subject, I think we'll be relegated to such generalities.

As a note: one of the things that I observed about the male/female split is that females, in my admittedly very limited and anecdotal observation, tend to prefer what might be termed low "points of contact" RPGs. That is, highly "geeky" RPGs, those with tons of rules for the sake of simulation and such, tend to be the purview of males who use the "superiority" of their rules systems as a source of ego. Women just don't have the group conformity genes that require as much system for this purpose.

The point being that, yes, such systems do have a lower proportion of women who have a voice in them. But less because they are not informed that they cannot have a voice in them, but because they self-select for other sorts of games. Hence my explanation for the higher percentages in, say, LARP games (also corresponds with the presupposed female advantages in verbal communications).

So it may simply be that older, more traditional male-created RPGs simply don't appeal to women as much as some other versions of RPGs. I think that the increases in women participating are, to some extent, the result of games shifting to included them. V:TM, of course, being a watershed point in gaming with regards to this.

Mike

jrs wrote: One of these days I'd like to see someone address the issue of why gamers perpetuate the existance of single sex play groups. That to me seems to be a more interesting issue.

Julie

Quote:
I've never known anyone who has played cross gender & I have never tried it myself, in a RPG, I mean.
Fer real? This is such a common phenomenon, that prominent folks here have been prompted to write that they think that it's a bad idea, and that they can't get into it when people play this way.

I think that we're going off on a tangent here. But generally, one could ask "why do men have all male poker games?" The answer is remarkably simple, people find associating with people who are similar easier than associating with people who are different than they are. So the tendency is to select for those who are similar.

Is there really any mystery in that? Is it a good reason to exclude anyone? Of course not. But it's very standard human behavior. How easy is it for somebody to say, "Oh, this game is just for my friends," when it just so happens that the person only has same-sex friends. Consider how typical this is for adolescents who are societally pushed into same-sex social frameworks - sports teams, locker rooms, bathrooms, even single-sex schools. Given that this has traditionally been when people started playing RPGs most typically, and that RPG groups tend to be eternally perpetuating, it's no surprise to me.

To whit, I have one group of gamer friends who go back to grade school some 25 years ago. Heck, when I started playing D&D, I literally didn't know how to speak to girls, much less get them to play a game that was considered extremely geeky. Not proud of that fact, but it wasn't RPGs that caused the problem, it was purely a general societal thing.

Mike

Mike Holmes wrote: The question, Julie, cannot be whether or not females are allowed to participate, but whether or not they feel that they have a voice to say "female" things when playing.

We cross-posted, obviously. But to clarify, my point to Julie was simply that her personal satisfaction as one player who does have a voice in RPGs doesn't answer the original poster's question. Which can't be whether some few women have a voice, obviously they do. It has to speak to the larger question.

As to the same-sex problem, well, I agree that it's a problem as my subsequent post points out. I wasn't speaking to that at all in my first response to Julie.

Mike

Mike Holmes wrote: John, as it happens (and I don't know if you're a member or not), the subject of male/female ratios is being discussed on the CAR-RPGa list recently, and some folks, Paul Cardwell included, pointed out how all of the methods used to identify female gamers that you mention have been badly skewed. And how more accurate sources show larger percentages of female players. This also depends on your definition of RPGs to some extent - does it include LARP? Freeform? Online play? If it includes the latter, the numbers go up pretty substantially. On the recent thread about Freeforms somebody estimated that female players are more than 50% of the population (annecdotal, of course, but to even have a limited experience in that range seems telling).

Mike Holmes wrote: I'm certainly not saying that I think that a broad look at RPGs as a whole comes up 50% female - I think it's still far less than that. But any assessment of whether or not this is a good rate of advancement or not is neccessarily relative. I'm sure we can both point to fields (forms to use the poster's term) where females and minorities have come to be proportionally incorporated, and others where they have very little voice. Sans hard data on the subject, I think we'll be relegated to such generalities.

Mike Holmes wrote: As a note: one of the things that I observed about the male/female split is that females, in my admittedly very limited and anecdotal observation, tend to prefer what might be termed low "points of contact" RPGs. That is, highly "geeky" RPGs, those with tons of rules for the sake of simulation and such, tend to be the purview of males who use the "superiority" of their rules systems as a source of ego. Women just don't have the group conformity genes that require as much system for this purpose.

I'd be interested in the commonalities found among gamers of all genders/ethnic groups/economic backgrounds. While folks seem to be agreed that the majority of ttrpg players are white, male and middle class, I don't think that the reverse ( that the majority of white, middle class, males are ttrpgers) has been shown to be true, even anecdotally.

So what then are the traits that draw folks to gaming?

For example, the Wizards of the Coast survey found that female participation in miniature wargames to be equal to (actually slightly higher) than female participation in tabletop roleplaying games. And miniature wargames are highly geeky and simulationy. Outside of tabletop RPGs, we see substantial female participation in games like "The Sims" which are highly complex. In my opinion, complex rules are a barrier to entry for any new player, male or female. If the game doesn't appeal to a group, they will tend not to learn the rules. But this isn't a problem with the rules. Rather it is a lack of draw to learn the rules.

I think Vampire: the Masquerade is a good case. Its rules are just as complex as most other mainstream games, but anecdotally it has had substantially greater female participation.

Mike Holmes wrote: Check this out. I know men who will have their Sims do all sorts of really odd things just to see where they can push the game engine. Can I get it to break? and that sort of thing. I never see women abusing a system that way in the name of being the only person to discover this flaw in the system or to get some extreme to occur.

It's precisely this difference that I think repels most women (and many males, too) from most RPGs.

John's right. As I feared, this thread has swiftly hit a "men are women are" exchange which serves no useful purpose.

Back on track, folks. Post in order to help Anna, not devolve into a "gee an interesting chance to insert my views" fest.

Best,
Ron

(Note that I'm using women here without addressing minorities just to make the overall arguments simpler. I'm not ignoring the part of the question that deals with minorities. I'm just focusing on certain angles by addressing one part of the question.)

The part that remains pertinent to the thread's question (I think, I could be wrong) is whether or not the women in question self-select out of RPGs, or are pushed out of RPGs. There are subtle differences. Do women not play American Football because of the social context surrounding it, or because they generally lack the upper-body strength to do so without injury? And by extension, is the fact that our society generally prevents women from gaining upper body strength a limiter here.

Sure, one could argue that RPGs are an activity that has been designed in such a way that it's not attractive to women. Which could be spun as it being an anti-women form. But generally you might have to so radically alter the activity to make it women-friendly that the original form disappears. For example, you can play tag football - but it's really not the same sport. To discuss whether or not RPGs have a voice, I think we have to look at them as they are in a positive sense. As a form in which somebody wants to have a voice.

So are RPGs an activity in which men seek actively to eliminate female participation? Or is the lack of female participation due to women just not being interested? I'm sure it's some of both, actually. I mean, there are obviously groups that seek to eliminate female participation either by not inviting women, or less actively by making game sessions intolerable to women players. But I'm just as sure that "otherwise equivalent" females select out of playing certain RPGs because RPGs do have some elements that are designed to appeal to people who are canalized by society as males.

So I think you have a bit of each - social level pressure against female participation, and game design militating against female participation. Where neither of these is true, however, I think that females do have an equal voice in participation. This is Julie's case, for instance.

Mike

Ok, well I'm going to come out and say "no".

And then, kinda, yes maybe.

We have previously touched on wether RPG is a viable vehicle for any sort of activism, and I argued against that proposition becuase of the expectation-fulfilling aspect of RPG.

That is, perceptions of a thing being realistic or otherwise are dependant on the persons understanding of reality. It is precisely that understanding of reality that really empowered alternate voices can challenge.

But, without an actual empowerement of these voices, their claims will be subject to the same process by which all claims are vetted, comparison against the hearers internal model of the world. Where the claims and the perceptions contradict, the claims will be discarded, as there is no authority by which this dissident voice can be empowered, precisely due to the voluntary, and often implicit, nature of the social contract.

Now, the "yes maybe" part arises from the fact that the game author does carry a sort of non-local credibility to make authoritative statements. Thus, a game designed to explore a particular point, and directs such exploration, could purposefully include a dissident speaker. But, this still requires the buy-in of the group as a whole to that particualr form of exploration. Conceivably, RPG could theoretically be used as a sort of "walk a mile in my shoes" thought experiment, but I think we are a very long way from there.

Good points. Yes, I think that many games do "throw" (to use a programming term) their own statements about how things are and the players can't do much to alter that other than to change the rules and be playing a different game. One of my favorite examples is that the National Security Decision Making game run by the War College folks at cons and such use an economic model that basically runs on the trickle down theory. That is, if you tax more to have more points to spread around, then your economy goes down, and you get less points and more unrest.

Sid Meier's Civilization games for the computer have a very definite world view built into them that you have to play to in order to do well. In this way such games teach their agendas, I agree.

For RPGs you find games that point out the relative lack of upper body strength for females to males and make that important. Lots of people report that this single rule in early editions of AD&D was what put them off roleplaying (to say nothing of lesser known and much more restrictive games). Just as a starter, and to say nothing of the other ideas that the games promote.

I think that it's interesting that the medieval model for fantasy RPGs usually includes, for "realism's" sake, an assumption that women are second-class citizens (as though any less technological civilization would be incapable of making the same leap that we have to assuming that women are equals). That's not to say that it can't be interesting to explore such themes even if to only say that such ideas are wrong. It's just that often this limits women to making feminist statements when, in fact, that's just the beginning of what they have to say.

But I think that there are some few games out there that do challenge these notions and, at the very least, do not include the biases in question. Female characters purchased with the same metagame points, for instance, in generic worlds. I mean, let's look at Hero System. Won't a system like that reflect mostly the biases of it's players more than anything else? Or is it's combat focus somehow inimical to it's use by women making statements when using it?

Mike

contracycle wrote: But, without an actual empowerement of these voices, their claims will be subject to the same process by which all claims are vetted, comparison against the hearers internal model of the world. Where the claims and the perceptions contradict, the claims will be discarded, as there is no authority by which this dissident voice can be empowered, precisely due to the voluntary, and often implicit, nature of the social contract.

Ah, from Paul's response, I see the angle here. Yes, RPGs are group activities, and as such nobody really can make an individual statment, expept, perhaps, in some cases where the GM has tons of power.

But if the GM is a woman, or if all the players are women, then can't they make a female statment? Or is the point that nobody playing RPGs can ever make an individual statement? I think that might be true, but then, again, you'd have to look at another form to ask the question of individual statements.

Mike

I think a woman can make a female statement in gaming, it's just a question of boldness and venue. At the same time, what's the definition of a female statement?

If we're talking about form/system, I think the ability of RPGs to hear diverse voices has everything to do with an implicit vs. an explicit social contract. If the social contract is implicit, then it is either a matter of established gaming habits or it is an unexamined extension of the larger cultural (or subcultural) setting. I doubt either of these is a great way to make certain that everyone's voice is heard.

With an explicit social contract, even if the system doesn't say, "Discuss gender issues," it does create a space where this conversation could take place. Creating this space is important, and I'm not sure you could answer "yes" to Anna's first question without it. With mainstream RPGs, though, discussing the social contract seems limited to such things as "Who's going to bring the chips?" This basically takes the SC back to the implicit level, and doesn't allow for multi-voiced discourse.

Indeed, well said Paul.

And the distinction that you raise between the explicit and implicit social contract is very important, IMO. Becuase it is only recently, and pretty much only really here, that the concept of the social contract in RPG has been explored.

It is precisely the potential for an explicit, exploratory social contract that is not about "me making a statement" but is instead about "me subordinating my own perceptions to those of the game" that suggests to me that RPG could conceivably be used as a kind of experiment in subjectivity.

Well, I think that even if it's been extremely rare, that some implicit social contracts previously have allowed for such statments. That is, you might have a GM using their influcence to create an agenda where people can and do make statements.

I'd agree that making these things explicit would allow for it to happen with a lot more regularity, however.

Mike