In Do RPGS allow for diverse participation/discourse? Julie wrote: One of these days I'd like to see someone address the issue of why gamers perpetuate the existance of single sex play groups. That to me seems to be a more interesting issue.

I can't see how this is any mystery. Men and women are different. Even if it's only based on inculturation into sex-roles. You might as well ask why guys like action flicks, and girls like chick-flicks. Well, the key fact is that they do.

People hang out and do stuff most with people who have the same interests. This means that guys often hang out with guys when going to see movies. Why should it be any different with RPGs?

As I've said before, I'm not putting a value on this either way. It just seems to be a very simple phenomenon to me.

Mike

I started playing with my friends when we were 13. We just didn't hang out with girls at that age (my German cultural experience is different from what I observe with my own 12-year-old here in the States, who now asks me if he can go on dates with girls to the movies, mainly because that's "what everybody does"). We didn't really know any girls well enough until age 16 and up, and then we had different ways of socializing with them and were deeply entrenched in our little group (we never added any other guys, either).

Women came into my roleplaying life when I started playing freeform chat online (at age 18), and I was blown away by the sheer amount of female players there as well as the different quality that gaming suddenly acquired.

That's just my anecdotal data point. In conclusion, it all depended on our little circle, which stayed the same more or less from the start. Once I entered a different environment, it was all changed.

Why aren't I allowed in my partners book club?

"Oh you could come, but it's a bit of a girls evening."

In other words, part of the evening is about the books, and part of the evening is about women enjoying and reinforcing in each other pride in their own culture.

But then again, I would say that RPG's are designed toward a male market. With the book club, I've seen the books they choose, and they are hardly "Kill orcs/space aliens" stuff. The book market has plenty of books which cater to each gender culture. RPG books, IMO, don't.

And here I thought the gauntlet was pretty well tossed about by Mike and Ian (GameLoft). I do not disagree with Mike's sentiments. The point I was attempting to make is that I do not think that it's RPG texts themselves that exclude women.

Just taking myself for a (likely atypical) example-- I've been gaming for a couple of decades now, and I never bothered actually reading a RPG rulebook until Sorcerer came along. (And I near had conniptions when I got to p. 42 of Sorcerer & Sword.) I learned how to participate from my fellow gamers who for the most part happened to be men; men who were invested in making me part of their group and enjoy this activity we call role-playing.

I don't have a problem with single sex gaming groups. I just think that looking for a rationale for why more women do not game should focus on interactions among the people gaming rather than texts.

Julie

A couple of years back (2001 maybe) there was a panel at DunDraCon on "men in gaming" to follow the "women in gaming" panel. There was a certain amount of nonsense in it, but some of the participants, Ken Hite in particular, strove, er, manfully to prevent it becoming a joke at the expense of the previous panel and actually discuss the role gaming plays or can play in the social behavior

Certainly, I think that the all-male groups I'm in or have been in serve a particular purpose in terms of peer-group construction or what have you that would be changed if we had female players.

Not that I subscribe to some essentialist "men game this way, women this way" thing. But I behave differently depending on the composition of the group I'm in; different social roles, different social contracts, different games.

Heya Julie,

I think a womans book club can start from a woman with several friends, having some books and just enjoying them so much she wants to talk about them with peers.

This is an example of a group forming from the books available. You might want to prioritise how a male group socially incorporated you, but how did that male group start? Did some guy go 'Hey, damn, this RPG is so good I've got to play with some peers!'

But what if that RPG or any on the shelf, hadn't appealed to him? Would any group have formed in the first place, to then go on to recruit you as well?

If RPG's on average are written in a male orientated way, they are not going to be 'seeding' female groups. This is the vital stage, since before social dynamics come into play, you need a group to begin with.

Callan,

I see your point, and you are right, if it were not for that first group (I wasn't the only one there new to gaming), I may never have learned about role-playing. But it was their support that kept me at it. I think that the initial inspiration that you describe has more to do with marketing than with text-- honestly, I have never felt welcome in any game store that I have been to, even when I was spending money.

Although I was not initiated into gaming through texts, I have read games that inspired me. The two that immediately come to mind are Dust Devils and Le Mon Mouri. I learned about Dust Devils from the Forge; I learned about Le Mon Mouri because Ron thrust it into my hands and told me to run it.

Julie

Julie is on to something really significant. I mean, a lot of the time the discussion about women in roleplaying says, "There are no games for women," but I know a number of women who play and they're more than happy to play D&D or Vampire or any of the games that "the guys" play.

The significant thing I've noticed is that the women I know game primarily with other women, even when they have close male friends who are also gamers. A female friend of mine bumped me from a game of hers once in favor of another female gamer. I was never given a clear reason.

My girlfriend recently got into gaming, and it's been limited primarily to one-on-one gaming. She's not comfortably gaming with my group, even though she's as good of a friend with them as I am. Why? Her explanation is, to paraphrase her, that she's worried about them being aggressive towards her and being the lone gamer girl in the group.

Is this a marketing/game design issue that's causing the tension? Or is it the same sort of societal gender issues that has resulted in the success of Curves?

Is it just a matter discomfort with members of the opposite sex and not an issue with the games themselves?

Here's something I've come to realize from this discussion (here and in the other thread): when it comes to extended play, with perhaps one exception, every single time I've played in a mixed sex group the play has been more enjoyable for me than is usually the case in single-sex groups. That is to say, if I were looking at the makeup of groups where I've enjoyed play the most, the most obvious thing that sticks out for me is that if there're women involved, I'm much more likely to have labeled that one of the "really good" games. (Note: I've had some really good all male games. I'm talkin' overall tendencies here.)

Maybe that's not true of all tastes in gameplay. I'd be OK with the gross generalization that hardcore Gamism, for e.g., is not so likely to appeal to women. But if what you're interested in is getting people to break out of the sinlge-sex (male, almost exclusively) RPG group, all I can think to do is point at the possibility that mixed-sex groups make the play better.

I also have a suspicion that mixed-group play experience makes single-sex group play better (for at least some tastes), but that may just be wishfull thinking on my part.

Gordon

I don't want to hear this hogwash that women want games with story and drama and it is the men who want the hack and slash orc-fests.

Phooey.

I have introduced two women to gaming and both times I saddled them up with characters who were brutes and they entirely loved it. They hit things, they rolled their d20 and they took glee in the damage they inflicted.

We started playing these games when we were around 13 and it just sort of became a thing we did among other males. Many of gamers are ashamed of what they do and don't tell others about it. Many others are involved in groups that are entirel dysfunctional and while they manage to get enough out of it to warrant continue playing, wouldn't want to subject their girlfriend or wife to it.

Even just looking at the population of Gen Con between 2004 and the last time I went, 1994, the ratio of male to female has changed tremendously. The pendulumn is swinging. Many say Vampire started this. I'm not sure.

And I think with the prevalence of geek culture in the mainstream it is continuing to do so. We are going to see all of these Hermoine Granger acolytes grow up and what kind of games are they going to want to play?

And I think with the prevalence of geek culture in the mainstream it is continuing to do so. We are going to see all of these Hermoine Granger acolytes grow up and what kind of games are they going to want to play?

I'd agree, Julie, that it has to start at the social level - if the majority men don't make playing comfortable for female players then they're not going to play. But, I guess my point is that what are we going to do about it? I mean, I hope that I'm doing my small part. And I can chastise people who I see playing in a way that's inimical to female participation. I can rant and rave here about how men should be more sensitive to their female player's needs.

But we've done all that. Is there anything else that can be done? I'm not sure there is. It sounds very much like we're being asked to figure out how to alter the sex dynamics of our entire culture to me. Tall order. I think to some extent we're just going to have to accept whatever rate of change that our culture does.

Texts, on the other hand, I do think have an effect. That is, I think that a bad text can, in fact, enable a male to be insensitive, or facilitate the creation of play that's just not interesting to women. I mean, to be obvious, a game like FATAL is just going to chase away women. Right? Now that's an exception, surely, but most other games, created by male designers, have some sort of male slant to them ranging from very subtle to complet turn-offs for female players.

Even if it's just cheesecake on the cover. Somewhere, some woman is being asked to play an RPG, seeing this cover of an Exalted supplement, and quite reasonably shaking her head and walking away.

Mike

Mike Holmes wrote: But we've done all that. Is there anything else that can be done? I'm not sure there is. It sounds very much like we're being asked to figure out how to alter the sex dynamics of our entire culture to me. Tall order. I think to some extent we're just going to have to accept whatever rate of change that our culture does.

Mike Holmes wrote: I mean, I hope that I'm doing my small part. And I can chastise people who I see playing in a way that's inimical to female participation.

I wouldn't say so. It certainly leads to a certain amount of bonding within a group, that, while perfectly possible and probably in a mixed group, takes on a whole new level in a single sex group. Observe the following:

An armload of "Us Girls" snuck away every night at a camping event (okay, our parents knew we were at "Hazel's" camp with Hazel). We had snuck our gaming stuff into our baggage so we could play D&D before curfew. We had the sneaky theif lady (Hazel), the brickwall cheesecake (me), the fey spellslinger ("Betsy") and the cleric ("Tilly"). Our GM was an older girl with a dirty mind, but she'd agreed to tone down her usual game in case our folks got wind of this.

Some of us had been close-ish when this started. Tilly was the new girl but we were pretty warm towards her and considered this nothing more than "A friendly dungeon crawl between friends." We went to bed every night in excited stitches and would practically run to Hazel's after dinner. What started out a dungeon crawl had become a race to kill the princess who'd killed Tilly's character, then it turned into track down the lich that killed Betsy and Hazel's baby griffon. By the end of the event, we'd gotten so close, you could have passed a knife between us and heard screams.

I'm not saying that a mixed group can't do this. But I am pointing out that single-sex groups aren't always bad. We certainly would have welcomed a boy (we were all teenagers and I was the baby at 12). But we created a strong bond between us.

Mike wrote: I'm not sure there is. It sounds very much like we're being asked to figure out how to alter the sex dynamics of our entire culture to me. Tall order. I think to some extent we're just going to have to accept whatever rate of change that our culture does.

Texts, on the other hand, I do think have an effect

Ian wrote: I run a teen center devoted to non-electronic gaming, especially rpg's. When I arrived there four years ago there were very few girls in the program. In fact, the ones that were there were being abused verbally and socially in my opinion. I decided that one of my goals was to change this.

I began to ask the adults with the program why this was the way it was. They gave me answers like "Its a boys hobby (one of them was a women)" and "having a female in the group really complicates things." This last answer was geared both as an in game and out of game comment. I disagree with this. I use the games I run as tools to help shape these youth as well as explore the stories they want to experience. This can't be done by not having full interaction of the genders. I worked hard to integrate and invite female gamers. We went from 10% female membership to about 40% in three years.

James, Single-sex game groups are bad, to me, only when they take female players out of gaming. That is, if they pretend not to be single-sex, allow women to play in theory, but then chase them off with bad social behavior or play material.

Is it bad if/when a female player is looking for a game, and your males-only game is the only one around? Tough call. As a social activity you don't automatically have an obligation to let such a player in (and you can certainly exclude them for any other reasonable reason - like they're nasty person or something). But if the woman is an otherwise acceptable player, and gender is the only reason that she's being exculded, then I think the group has to ask itself carefully if they really have a good reason to exclude the female player.

Once you've let the player in, it gets even more complicated. Do you have to alter your style to accomodate their preferences? I think it's fair to state your preferences up front, and let the person make their own decision whether or not they want to conform to them.

The problem here is that we're dealing with things on the social level. Which is a skill that we all hone on a daily basis, and which nobody is perfect at. I guess what I'm saying is, uh, "Be good" to female players as best you can. As you should be to all players.

Mike

Mike Holmes wrote:
Is it bad if/when a female player is looking for a game, and your males-only game is the only one around? Tough call. As a social activity you don't automatically have an obligation to let such a player in (and you can certainly exclude them for any other reasonable reason - like they're nasty person or something). But if the woman is an otherwise acceptable player, and gender is the only reason that she's being exculded, then I think the group has to ask itself carefully if they really have a good reason to exclude the female player.

James Holloway wrote: But surely if the overall purpose of my game is "to bond with my male friends," gender is a great reason to exclude another player.

Mike Holmes wrote: Texts, on the other hand, I do think have an effect. That is, I think that a bad text can, in fact, enable a male to be insensitive, or facilitate the creation of play that's just not interesting to women.

Mike Holmes wrote: I haven't categorically said that it's always bad to exclude women.

But if the woman is an otherwise acceptable player, and gender is t
he only reason that she's being exculded, then I think the group has to ask itself carefully if they really have a good reason to exclude the female player.

You sound like you have a guilty conscience to me.

To perhaps clarify my previous post. The question is "why do (male) gamers preserve single-sex gaming groups?" I suggest that for historical reasons gaming is seen by many of its participants as one of those male-bonding pastimes like poker or, I dunno, fishing. Which sucks if you're a woman and you want to go fishing with the guys, but nonetheless has its place.

Personally I am fine with one gender gaming groups. If that is the way those individuals have chosen to structure their group then so be it. I do think, from personal experience, that this phenomenon continues not from a real desire to bond only with men but from a lack of desire to change or expand the horizons of the groups play, as I said in a previous post. Many men do see gaming like fishing or the book group and that is OK, unless it is damaging the hobby as a whole. Your group can be one gender only but don't make people interested in the hobby feel that yourway is the only way. I do not believe that female gamers will make the gaming industry a better place, individuals will do that. I do believe that we need to work hard to make sure everyone who may be inspired by this artform have a chance to experience it. This is where we as a hobby group fall short in my opinion. Our inclusivity, in many areas not just gender, is poor to abysmal. I feel that it is my duty to spread gaming to as many as can be impacted by it. With this in mind we need to make it an enjoyable experience the first time. Not to mention the more people who experience it the stronger the hobby grows in public image.

In the case of my teen center I could not sit by and watch the situation as it was, continue on. Both morally, I am a firm believer in gender equality and in the positive impact and spreading of the gaming artform, and professionally. The Game Loft's mission is to use gaming as a positive factor in youth's lives to teach them to be positive adults. That goal is not possible if you are denying half the population the experience. I do not think everyone should game. I tell people we are a niche program. Those indivuduals who really connect with gaming, no matter gender, are the ones who we will have a positive and powerful impact on. Not everyone. But everyone who has even the slightest interest should feel safe to try it.

Ian

I've been reading this thread since it started, and I just don't get it. The discussion seems to be shooting all over the place. Can someone (M.J.? Julie?) help me out and identify the question being asked or specific issue being analyzed? I'm fascinated by gender relations, but I can't contribute since I'm not sure what the discussion is about.

Is it an opinion-fest? (e.g. "I think single-sex play groups are fine/wrong.")

Is it about personal experiences? (e.g. "Yeah, I played in a same/mixed gender group.")

Is it about something else entirely?

James, I say, ask yourself if you have a good reason. You say, I have, and I have a good reason. Where are we conflicting? Any reading of me that I'm codemning you is your own bias.

You're not saying that all groups who keep women out are doing so for good reasons, are you? For example, I'm quite sure that there are groups who keep women out just because they're scared of having a woman in the group, and/or having to clean up really sexist antics in play. You wouldn't agree with me that these people should check their reasons for why they're not including females?

I'm not even trying to set the line. All I'm saying is that people should think about the line.

Mike

Andrew,

I'm glad you asked, 'cause I'm not sure where it's going either. I cannot speak for M.J. and since he started this topic, as far as I'm concerned, he gets final say on its disposition. Personally, I don't think there is anything substantial being discussed at the moment; I'm not good at the "what girls want" versus "what guys want" kinds of dialogues. The point I raised is rather simplistic and I don't have much to add than what I stated in my first post on this topic, i.e., RPG texts alone do not exclude women. (I do appreciate Mike's comment that texts are more easily changed than people's interactions and therefore are a reasonable focus.) I guess I could add to my assertion that I don't believe that role-playing as an activity is learned through texts alone; but that is a different issue and not necessarily germane to this one.

Julie

M.J. does not have much time to read and post at the Forge.

That means that everyone posting to this thread should let his (M.J.'s) pace set yours. Slow down. Follow his lead in terms of topic and what needs to be developed from this point on.

Best,
Ron

Mike Holmes wrote: James, I say, ask yourself if you have a good reason. You say, I have, and I have a good reason. Where are we conflicting?

James Holloway wrote: So I guess our conflict comes from your statement that you "chastise people who game in a manner inimical to female participation." I'm all for trying to prevent our fellow gamers from making the rest of us look bad, but for whatever reason that sounded like telling other people how to play their games, which tends to make me uncomfortable.

In a lot of pre-modern societies, men have secret societies that exist seperately from the culture overall, and specifically consitute a male-only subculture. I think that for many adolescent males, and to a lesser extent, adult males in the poker scenario, are replicating this "hunting lodge" society. It may in fact be slightly unrealistic to expect that adolescent male groups are going to be inclusive, but this is not excuse for pandering to or perpetuating the negative aspects of that subculture among adults.

Equally, an adolescent group that grows up may perpetuate the male-only subculture out of force of habit. I don't, for example, criticise the validity of the boys poker night at all. In that case, looking at the question again may provoke changes.

Andrew Morris wrote: Can someone (M.J.? Julie?) help me out and identify the question being asked or specific issue being analyzed?

M. J. Young wrote: [That is, no one that I know will say that it's good that the hobby is dominated by guys. They'll either say that it isn't, or that it's a shame that it is.

What Walt said. With feeling.

Best,
Ron

Two points:

I'm only really railing against the sexism, or people who would like to have women in their groups, but do not due to fear. I think we all agree these are bad things.

Or is it a shame because if more women played, the market for games would be bigger? Now that I sympathize with. Yes, that's a shame. But why concentrate outreach efforts on the 99.5% of women who don't play instead of on the 99% of men who don't play? (Figures pulled out of my ass, but the point remains valid under any realistic estimates. Since non-players way outnumber players, why focus on female non-players in particular?)

M. J. Young wrote: The question that I was raising is, given that no one is happy with the idea of a hobby so dominated by males, why are there still so many groups with no females?