In this thread we were looking at the possibility of using TSOY Keys as an alternate way to meter out HPs in HQ. I came out against it, as ancillary to the system that HQ already has.

But the problem is that it still leaves me with a question of how to do HP dispensation in PBEM. Sans clear "adventure" or "session" boundaries, I still need some method to dole out HPs. What I've settled on currently is giving out one HP per scene completed. I think this is good for PBEM, because it encourages players to get on with scenes, and get to new ones. Hopefully at least.

But I had presented the players with a few other options regarding HP. Here they are:


• Goals - sorta like TSOY keys, what this does is simply put some mechanical effect on the goals listing on the character sheet. Basically, whenever the player has the character take some definite step towards achieving a goal (whether successful or not), they get a HP. This would include HP costs for adding goals, and a way (like Keys) to redeem them for HP.
• Real Time Passage - one HP per week or somesuch. Has problems, and I'm including it here just for completeness.
• Game Time Passage - again, not a favorite, but a possibility. Very simmy feeling in some ways.
• Per Post - this encourages participation. In this case, the reward would probably be some fraction like .2HP per post. Both this and the per scene option do seem to have the potential problem, in theory, that players are incentivized to post less per scene, and simply post more often. I haven't seen that actually happen, however. But it leads to proposing the next option.
• Per Word - .005HP per word posted or somesuch. The problem here is the accounting that's added.



Any comments on what seems superior here? Any other ideas besides these? I don't know that I'll change the PBEM that I'm playing in, but it's interesting to consider these.

Mike

Tuning the numbers seems like it should be wholly dependent on the rate of advancement that you're looking for, but a combination of the per scene system that you're using and a goal-based thing would seem to me to generate a nice award system over all. Is there a reason not to combine the two?

Christopher Weeks wrote: Tuning the numbers seems like it should be wholly dependent on the rate of advancement that you're looking for, ...

Quite, quite. The sample figures are just to give an idea of what a functional number might look like. You couldn't get away with one HP per post, I don't think, for example. I'm just saying that you can go fractional.

but a combination of the per scene system that you're using and a goal-based thing would seem to me to generate a nice award system over all. Is there a reason not to combine the two?

No reason at all. In fact that sounds like a very attractive combination to me. That way if a player wants to go off on tangents they're still being rewarded for playing those out. But they get even more rewards playing out the goals that they've set.

Nice. Hmm. As a player in my IRC game, if I cut down the HP to like one or two per session, and included a goal mechanic there, do you think that would work?

Mike

I certainly think it could work.

I don't exactly see a problem with how you've been doing it (even with the fluctuations in amount), but if you wanted to bring our charcter-goals into the game more, it would be a way to do so. Worth considering, I'm still figuring out how and when to actually request a scene, so that might require some more explicit discussion since to just go with the flow would be a marginalized approach.

Mike, was I dreaming, or did I notice you mentioning, somewhere, an idea about using a Fan-Mail-like system for HPs?

Charles Wotton

Ah, yes, somebody had mentioned that, and I was thinking it might be a good idea. Possibly. There are some real potential downsides. For one, unlike PTA, there is no rotation on scene framing. So characters don't get even screen time. So they might not have the same chances to earn.

But perhaps that's something that can be addressed too. It's worth considering, at least.

Mike

We have a system of Award categories, and all players get to nominate and vote for the other players in each category. The narrator periodically declares a kind of Award ceremony at the end of a major sequence, and encourages everyone to vote. The player with the most votes in each category then gets an extra HP.

Our current categories are:

Best External Reference
Best HP Spend
Best Roleplay
Best use of a skill
Best use of a word
Completely daft extra category
Extra-curricular
Funniest moment
Most useful act
Stuff of Legend

So far the awards have tended to get distributed fairly evenly, but it does offer a way to reward enthusiasm, good role-playing and amusing scenes, and gives us the opportunity to show appreciation for the other players' efforts. All sorts of goodness, basically.

Hmm. We're drifting a tad, I think. While I am interested in the applications of these things for FTF play and the like, I'm still really looking for what would work best for PBEM.

So the problem with your suggestions, Paul, is that the way I play it, the only typical "breaks" are between what would look to be in other games like complete games.

Or should I look for some way to put in breaks? Somebody suggested "chapters." But the problem there is that I have no idea how to angle for such a thing - I think it's actually somewhat contradictory to my current "soap opera" style approach. You know, interlinking story arcs with no real beginnings or endings. Yeah there's an overall arc in a way, but when it ends, we move on to new characters most times.

Mike

Mike Holmes wrote: Hmm. We're drifting a tad, I think. While I am interested in the applications of these things for FTF play and the like, I'm still really looking for what would work best for PBEM.

See, again, there's a second problem really in addition to the fact that I play in PBEM. In fact this is what makes it so that the discussion here actually does relate to my FTF play as well. Basically, I don't do "adventures."

Hard to explain what I mean by this, but I don't have plots or adventures worked out. I just have stuff for the players to run into - tons of stuff. To be really clear, I don't do "party play" either. All plots that do occur are on a per character basis. So while one plot is closing for one character, another is just in the very middle of his plot.

In FTF play, the normal rule, which I think actually most people sorta ignore, is that you only get HP awards once per "adventure" at its end. Other than that, IIRC, you're supposed to get one (or some?) at the beginning of the adventure. Most people I know dump this for per session awards. That's what I do right now. Which works out fine. The action stops wherever it stops for the evening, and we just award then. In PBEM, there is never any stop to the action at all. No lulls.

Well, as I said, there are, but they're after, say, 20 sessions or more, and at that point characters tend to change over (and I award Advanced Experience, too - it's just on a whole nother level).

Does that help clarify the problem? I refer to the style as Soap Opera - there's never any beginning or end, just more evolving plots every installment.

Anyhow, I'll think about the "every 1000 posts idea" but that doesn't solve my initial problem with getting HP out there on an incremental basis.

Mike

For incremental awards I like the HP-per-scene method you're using in your PBEM a lot.

For me the benefits are that it's simple to remember, it keeps bookkeeping to a minimum, and most importantly: it feels organic. PBEM can feel a bit fragmented because of those unaviodable lapses of silence between posts. Unlike FTF there's no continuous flow of play as such, but having clear-cut scenes like you do helps a lot, and having HP awards at the end of a scene reinforces that.

Also this "organic" quality of per-scene awards means that for me as a player it's easy to get a sense of where my story currency is at.
I know that on average I have 1HP per scene, whether to bump one contest to steer the story in another direction; or raise one ability to signal to you what's important for me about the character or getting more so as a result of play; or simply tuck it away to save towards some future purpose (say, to join another practice).

It could be 2HP or 0.5HP instead or whatever, my argument would stay the same. I prefer it to any sort of per-post, per-time or per-word method I think.



That's not saying anything about goal-oriented or wow-oriented awards though, either or both might be cool to have in addition to to some sort of per-scene award. I'm not too sure what exactly it is you want to achieve with them though, so it's hard for me to come up with ideas.
(I love PTA's fan mail system but as you've said above, cutting it out of its environment and replanting it into HQ mechanics might not work too well.)

What is it you'd like to encourage specifically, can you say? Is it player involvement as such, players being proactive, players making cool moments, players getting characters into interesting trouble or what?

Mike Holmes wrote: Hard to explain what I mean by this, but I don't have plots or adventures worked out. I just have stuff for the players to run into - tons of stuff. To be really clear, I don't do "party play" either. All plots that do occur are on a per character basis. So while one plot is closing for one character, another is just in the very middle of his plot.

Heh, it only occured to me today that the PCs haven't met yet. But that's illustrative. It's not my intent to keep characters apart, in fact, the backdrop is designed so that their paths will cross at some point in all likelihood. It's just that it only happens when it happens. If you will.

So, yeah, that ought to give an idea of the problem.

As far as what I'm trying to reward, well, the goal idea is, yes, a reward for playing in a proactive manner which, yes, includes getting into trouble, but generally is about moving the story forward in significant ways.

Not that I feel that you guys need a huge push in that direction - just that it might be interesting to see what would happen. And this is also hypothetical and about other games as well. Again, I'm thinking of trying this stuff out with the IRC groups, too. Reason being, I don't like HP being a "attendance" award. Even with the per scene award for PBEM play, it's actually encouraging moving the plot forward at least as much as players are informed not to drag scenes on forever unless there's a damn good reason. Basically I see HP as good motivating tools, but no reward particularly for which they're given.

The actual book suggestions about awarding them for adventure success is just so....old school. :-)

Anyhow, I'm pretty partial to rewarding pursuit of goals in some way, but the model I have right now just isn't quite right. Not sure why, tho.

Mike

Mike Holmes wrote: Anyhow, I'm pretty partial to rewarding pursuit of goals in some way, but the model I have right now just isn't quite right. Not sure why, tho.

Mike Holmes wrote: [...] moving the story forward in significant ways.

StalkingBlue wrote: What exactly is the model you mean? Rewarding steps towards goals that are on the char sheet as you've said above? And do you mean by that, goals that are actually reflected in abilities or any old goal that's written in the description part of the char sheet? E.g. Terrikke's goal to find her father is reflected in her Worship Father relationship, but getting her own boat isn't specifically reflected anywhere in her stats (reason being, it was colour more than an actual goal for play on my part).

Hm, I reckon in creative writing terms that would mean introducing, building (reinforcing), or resolving conflict.

Didn't Bryan already suggest a solution involving something similar when we discussed this earlier on the list?

Goal: learn more about the stone. Obstacle: the church of Shaal doesn't want Shay there. To introduce a conflict, the player might frame the scene with the stone in the temple ceiling and state goal and obstacle.
To build the conflict, the player would then frame scenes involving stones and the church of Shaal. To resolve the conflict, the player might push to get on the Shaal's good side, to get the stone the heck out of there, or might end up deciding that this whole stone business isn't for Shay and might pass it on to someone else. Or something.

Mike Holmes wrote: What I'm looking at now is simply steps towards the goals written in the Goals section of the character sheet. You're allowed three to start, and then I think I'd have some buying and cashing in rules. Something like 3 HP to set another goal, and you can cash one in at any time for 3 HP if you do something against that goal.

In fact, I could mechanically make this simple and award only when the player asks for a contest that relates to a goal. Perhaps. Hmmm.

CCW wrote: You might want to give the GM veto power over what contests were eligable, just to stop people asking for crossing the road contests. I don't think you'd have to worry about too much of that sort of nonsense with your players though.

Mike Holmes wrote: And, interestingly, with players calling for contests, I'd probably cease doing it myself. I'd prefer to leave this in the hands of the players. So that might cause a problem for my play.

That is, the only player who would be unrewarded for their actions would be those that didn't bother to keep their goals up to date. Or so it seems to me.

CCW wrote: The number of HP gained by this method would also depend a fair bit on the group and the mode of play. There are more contests in my FtF game than there are on IRC, but IRC is slower overall, and the players are different. I suspect some questions can really only be resolved through playtesting.

This makes sense. So it's much like a key sytem, but without the uber-ability that the player must work into every contest in order to get experience. In fact, it's closer to TSOY's keys than what the discussion on the keys thread led us to, no?

Would a player be able to change goals at any time, or would there be something in place to prevent (boy, do I ever have a suspicious mind) players changing goals just to get HP: "I want to get a new sword, so, this scene only, I'm buying off my old goal and replacing it with 'goal: get new sword.'"

The idea of this, and the presentation of an investment vector for HPs is really cool. Does this make the GM want to create those kinds of conflicts or avoid them? I could see it going both ways for different GMs and I'm thinking it only really works for those that engage -- "helping" the players. Since this is mostly about Mike's games, I'm thinking it's a non-issue, but I could see it being a hitch for some groups.

Mike Holmes wrote: Truer words were never written. I'll bring it up tomorrow night. :-)

It costs three HP to set up a goal, but you get only two HP for cashing one in.

...meaning that you won't feel that you've gotten your investment's worth until several contests have gone by that are rewarded by it.

Christopher Weeks wrote: Does this make the GM want to create those kinds of conflicts or avoid them?

CCW wrote: Ah. I missed this. I was thinking that you'd proposed 3HP for each.

It would also increase the feeling of satisfaction you'd get upon killing the big bad (or whatever your goal might be).

To some extent, it's meant to help take the issue out of the GM's hands. With luck the players will more proactively seek such conflicts out. You're right though that this system does assume a GM who sees a great part of his or her job as facilitating what the players want to do. Even with unvarnished railroading, however, as long as the players can see the direction of the track ahead, they can choose goals that will earn them HPs.