Topic: My Dream Game
Started by: Walt Freitag
Started on: 4/3/2002
Board: Indie Game Design
On 4/3/2002 at 4:45pm, Walt Freitag wrote:
My Dream Game
Last night I had that dream again. I dreamed I had to take a test in a Dairy Queen on another planet. And in this dream I looked around, and there was this woman. She was making it all up. She was writing it all down. And she was laughing. She was laughing her head off. And I said, "Hey! Give me that pen."
-- Laurie Anderson
No, I'm not talking about the game I always dreamed of. It’s a game about dreams that I’ve been intending to design.
The setting is a dream world, somewhere in between realistic dreams and the great dream worlds of literature. I’m looking for more realistically dreamlike than Alice’s Wonderland (too "normal"), but less so than real dreams (too chaotic). The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway hits it just about right. A closely related genre is the play-mind-games-in-someone-else’s-mind story, including the SF prototype He Who Shapes by Roger Zelazny, and the ripoff movie version The Cell. The borders of the genre are hazy because many fantasy worlds overtly described as dream worlds have few of the characteristics of dreams (such as Nightmare on Elm Street) even though dreaming is the mechanism for entering; and some fantasy worlds presented as objectively real (Labyrinth) have most of the characteristics of dream worlds.
In real dreams, stance shifts constantly, and lucidity (authorial power) varies. This means that certain metagame mechanisms can be considered simulational when applied to role-playing dreams.
The big problem with dream storytelling is the mutability of the setting. Amber shadow might have infinte dimensions of variability, but there’s at least a viable concept of distance: the greater the desired change, the more difficult to bring about. But dream worlds should have very little inertia. The slightest whim should be able to effect radical change. How to prevent such a world from becoming completely solipsistic is the main problem. Mechanisms for trading off narrator power is part of the answer.
Here’s what I’m working toward. At present this is nothing more than a wish/idea list. I know that not all of these items are feasible or compatible with one another. Pruning and prioritizing is part of what I’m doing now.
- The basic play unit (one dream) is a standalone short episode. The system should be useful for dream episodes that occur in other RPGs. A metaplot framework for long term play would be a secondary priority.
- Therefore, the system doesn’t need character creation so much as character representation. Rather than characteristics, I’m thinking along the lines of short lists of key images (perhaps grouped as nouns, proper nouns, verbs, adjectives, and adverbs) that would be especially meaningful for a character, establishing the character’s strengths and vulnerabilities, which in dreams are the same thing. An expert gunman might be likely to possess a gun at any given time during a dream, but is also most likely to find himself searching fruitlessly for a gun or unable to aim or always out of ammunition. A mage with power over a certain element or a type of demon should at times be powerless against those same forces in a dream.
- In literary dream stories, the resolution is usually the same: dreamer realizes his or her will is paramount; exerts will; game over. "You’re nothing but a pack of cards!" Actual players in actual play will know this going in, it won’t be any surprise. So Will should be an explicit currency mechanism.
- For each player, there is a Message. The Message is held by some other participant (not necessarily the GM) who is trying to convey the mess Message age, but must do so very indirectly via manipulating the dream imagery. Understanding (or at least identifying) elements of the Message should be linked to Will.
- The Message can be a question. In a sense it can be thought of as a local Premise. A possible meta-Premise (closely allied with what many reserachers now believe is the purpose of real dreaming) to be considered by the creator of the Message is "how must (this individual) change his behavior to adapt to changes in his circumstances?" When used with games emphasizing internal reality rather than external, a more old fashioned Freudian style meta-premise might be preferable: "what unconscious conflict is being repressed by this individual, and with what consequences?"
- It’s too easy to get around any specific constraints on conveying the Message in a too-obvious form. So it should work the other way around: the message is pre-created as, perhaps, a series of images/events that must occur, in order. The Message -bearer must cause the elements of the Message to occur, but doesn’t want the dreamer PC to understand it (i.e. gains some reward that increases with how long the dreamer fails to do so). So the Message-bearer tries to create a lot of other imagery to conceal the Message in noise.
- Yes, I’m aware of the irony of having a pre-written linear Message at the core of what should play out as a highly Narrativist experience. But a group story creation process must have a skeleton framework somewhere. Usually setting, character, or circumstance provides this. But in dreams these are all too highly mutable. Using a fixed Message as the motivating framework around which the players build a larger narrative (quite possibly tying into other Premises drawn from the main game) seems a reasonable mechanism to try.
- Perhaps only one actual player-character is involved. All others are dream characters, which might be dream versions of other player-characters the dreamer knows, but they are dream images of themselves, not their real selves.
- Alternatively, a form of group play where all the player-characters share a dream and manipulate the dream narrative to control each other’s Messages might be much more interesting, though less like traditional real (or even literary) dreaming.
- Another mechanism I have in mind, again inspired by research on real dreaming, is random image input from an outside source. This represents the idea of "random" firing of memories that influence real dreams – those aren’t really from an outside source, of course, but it seems that way to the dreamer. This would take the form of a monitor screen in view of all the participants that would display words and pictures (and possibly sounds) randomly drawn from a pre-chosen collection, at intervals ranging from a few seconds to a few minutes.Players would be allowed (or perhaps at times required) to incorporate the current image into the dream.
- Suitable digital collections of images, text, and sounds (with the simple Shockwave software needed to control their display) could be the closest thing to publishable "modules" that this genre and system would allow.
- My publication goals (despite the ominous use of the word "publishable" in one of the paragraphs above) are modest. Free digital publication would be adequate, which means I don’t have to aim for mass appeal, but I do want the system to be playable and fun enough to be more than just a laboratory curiosity.
I don’t know about your dreams, but mine are sort of hackneyed. Same thing night after night, just… repetitive. And the color is really bad. And the themes are just infantile. And you always get what you want, and that’s just not the way life is.
-- Laurie Anderson
What I’d like to know is, what has been done before in this genre that I should know about? What existing systems should I be looking at in order to avoid reinventing the wheel or repeating old mistakes? Systems (or portions of systems) for dream-world or mindscape settings must have been done before, but I’m not aware of any. I'd be just as interested in spectacular failures as in moderate successes.
- Walt
On 4/3/2002 at 4:51pm, Mike Holmes wrote:
RE: My Dream Game
Wow, extremely interesting idea. Still processing, more later.
Mike
On 4/3/2002 at 4:57pm, Ron Edwards wrote:
RE: My Dream Game
Hi Walt,
Your first stop for RPG references must definitely be the Dreamlands material from The Chaosium, nearly all of it derived from the excellent Lovecraft novel, The Dreamquest of Unknown Kadath. I suggest reading both the novel and the game material; I think that the latter misses the former's thematic point entirely, but it's still one of the finest raw settings in game literature.
Another good reference is Shattered Dreams, an independent RPG published by Apex Publishing in 1994. I've played it and think it's actually a much better game than it was recognized for. Let's see ... oh yes, and one of the branches of magic in Kult is dream-based, if I remember correctly.
Finally, and this might seem weird, spend some time with The Whispering Vault as well. This game is not at all "set in dreams" or about "dreamwalking" or anything like that, but it has a lot of material, both psychological and system-design, that is relevant to the topic.
Oh yeah, and if you're interested in more cinema references, the main one must be Dreamscape, from 1984. Like The Cell, it's basically He Who Shapes, but I think it managed to be a pretty good movie. Make sure to avoid the butchered British version (the censors were kind of active around them).
Best,
Ron
On 4/3/2002 at 5:49pm, J B Bell wrote:
RE: My Dream Game
Oooh, this looks very good. Also, relevant to something I am struggling with--how to represent the feel of William S. Burroughs' work accurately, especially the wilder stuff like Nova Express, which presents a more detailed cosmology than the more well-known Naked Lunch. Although Over the Edge is inspired by these it still represents a reasonably traditional way of playing--you know who you are, at least in a physical way, you have the usual continuity of a PC, and so forth.
Finding out about Burroughs et al's. "cut-up" and "fold-in" techniques might be instructive. I'd hate to see an RPG that in any way required a computer, myself, so I'd like to speak against the Flash animation idea, except as an optional prop.
--JB
On 4/4/2002 at 1:32am, Walt Freitag wrote:
RE: My Dream Game
JB, good point about the connection with Burroughs. (Okay, that's drug dreams, but then so is The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway. And Jefferson Airplane, at least, had their doubts about Alice too...) I'm somewhat familiar with his cut-up and fold-in techniques. Figuring out the RPG equivalents... hmmm, deserves a lot more thought.
The computer idea is on I'm-not-sure-which side of the fine line between innovative and gimmicky. It doesn't require anyone to operate the computer during a play session, it's just there in the room (at some distance, not on the game table if there is one) displaying a kind of slide show. A videotape would be just as effective, but I'd be making the videotape from the computer program so for me using the computer monitor directly just cuts out an extra step. One could have a similar effect with just cards with photographs on them, but they would have to be played rather than the sort of always-there effect that a screen would have.
Ron, thank you for the background suggestions. This is exactly what I was looking for. And it sounds like my homework on this one is going to be far more enjoyable than I'd hoped for. (One of the finest raw settings in game literature... cool! An indie game that you think is way underrated... really cool! And yet another reason to try The Whispering Vault, too... looks like I have my fun cut out for me. :) )
I remember the movie Dreamscape. I'm pretty sure I saw it in a theater in its original release. I didn't mention it because I wasn't sure how well known it is. (Plus, I don't remember very much of the plot, so I'll have to watch it again. An image of a train car in the middle of Hell is about all that sticks in my mind, and even that might have been from something else.) I'd call the game Dreamscape if it weren't already a movie title.
Oh, and just in case people were wondering, I haven't forgotten Sandman. It's actually only peripherally relevant to what I want to do, but it's definitely in the list of genre reference points.
- Walt
On 4/4/2002 at 11:34am, Petter Sandelin wrote:
RE: My Dream Game
Oh, this sounds very intresting. You see after Paul Czege mentioned The Vocabulary in this thread(thanks for getting me started), I've dug up some notes, done some thinking and ended up with this dream rpg thing.
I promise to post the whole idea as soon as I get it clear enough but I can say now that it looks in some ways similar to your project but not that much. I'm thinking about dreams in a less realistic way, pretty much making them all wish-dreams. To sum it up fast: Normal guy steps into the dream to escape reality. However, his personality follows him so in order to escape reality he has to escape his personality too, can he do that? Is he willling to?
If you want to check out the original Vocabulary idea you can find it here(it has changed a bit). It was inspired from reading the OTE cut-up mechanic but I must admit that I've forgotten how Burroughs himself handled it. Can anyone fill me in?
I'm also playing Whispering Vault at the time and must agree that it feels very relevant.
Anyway, I hope we could get some cooperation out of this instead of stepping on each others toes. .
Forge Reference Links:
Topic 1645
On 4/4/2002 at 3:21pm, Walt Freitag wrote:
RE: My Dream Game
The original cut-up technique involved literally cutting up pieces of text (including prose by the author, magazine articles, ads, 'anything with words on it') and then piecing them together. I'm not sure it originated with Burroughs (though he may have invented it independently of other prior inventors) but he certainly validated and extended it by using it in three novels.
How much thought went into choosing the material to be cut up, deciding the size of the fragments to be cut, selecting the pieces during reassembly, and (possibly) making small edits in the reassembled prose, for any specific cut-up work, has never been clear to me. I'm not sure if anyone really knows. Most discussion of the work attempts to imply it's all just random, and/or that this is some sort of proof that "random" language can have meaning without authorial input. The truth is more complex, since cut-up prose is far from random and the process of its creation has at least the potential for a large amount of authorial craft in it.
More to come, since I've just read the old "The Vocabulary" thread and am assimilating it in the context of my version of the word list idea. That plus the Burroughs digression is brewing up an idea about fractal time-and-resolution slicing that's as yet way too unformed to begin to explain.
Cooperation sounds great to me. Just understand that after this period of brainstorming I'm going to want to pause to do the homework discussed previously before going into too much detail on design at my end.
- Walt
On 4/4/2002 at 4:30pm, Ron Edwards wrote:
RE: My Dream Game
Hey,
One more thing - check out the game Munchkins by Mike Sullivan (Epoch); it's linked from the Resource Library, I believe, as well as from my review. It presents a very functional use of in-game, seat of your pants "randomized" material.
Best,
Ron
On 4/4/2002 at 4:48pm, Mike Holmes wrote:
RE: My Dream Game
J B Bell wrote: ... Also, relevant to something I am struggling with--how to represent the feel of William S. Burroughs' work accurately, especially the wilder stuff like Nova Express, which presents a more detailed cosmology than the more well-known Naked Lunch. Although Over the Edge is inspired by these it still represents a reasonably traditional way of playing--you know who you are, at least in a physical way, you have the usual continuity of a PC, and so forth.
Um, really? Not in my game. Not that it was particularly successful, but I'd do stuff like describe people spontaneously combusting, and then tell the player that his character woke up and it was just a dream. There's a lot of even weirder, really non-traditional stuff in that book. I won't spoil.
Finding out about Burroughs et al's. "cut-up" and "fold-in" techniques might be instructive.
Um, In OtE there is a gang called the Cut-Ups, and there is a whole supplement on how they use the technique to alter reality called, "Weather the Cuckoo Likes", if I'm not mistaken. That should help.
BTW, I remember reading that this is how David Bowie comes up with lots of his lyrics.
I'd hate to see an RPG that in any way required a computer, myself, so I'd like to speak against the Flash animation idea, except as an optional prop.
I'm for the computer as a play aide in general. OTOH,I think there might be better mechanics to achieve the desired effect in this case.
What you really need, Walt, is some brinksmanship mechanic where players try to keep their message from their messagee, while hinting at it. Sorta like SOAP secrets, but the GM could serve as judge of effectiveness. Or something like that.
Mike
On 4/5/2002 at 2:14pm, amiel wrote:
RE: My Dream Game
General thoughts to add:
Jacob's Ladder and Twelve Monkeys as movie references.
Playing cards as a possible fortune mechanic(if not a tarot deck).
Random locations and elements on index cards, drawn at specified times and played immediately.
J.G. Ballard as a possible literary reference.
I'll shut up now.
On 4/5/2002 at 3:27pm, J B Bell wrote:
RE: My Dream Game
Mike says that OtE is not as cut-and-dried as I had implied.
Sorry about that, Mike; clearly my perusals of the game in the shop have not done it justice; for some reason I've not found it attractive enough to pick up on my limited budget. It looked fairly standard with a lot of listings of abilities and so forth--clearly I have missed the fun parts. I'll shut up until I've bought or borrowed it and given it a thorough going-over.
And I wanna play in your game.
--JB
On 4/6/2002 at 11:30pm, Walt Freitag wrote:
RE: My Dream Game
Jeremiah, thank you. (Why so shy? Why end a post, in which you gave me exactly the kind of assistance I requested, with "I'll shut up now"??) I'm still deciding about the use of cards in the system (see below). I know very little about Ballard but after reading your post I looked up some basic biographical and critical info. You're quite right, this is important stuff.
Replying to all: Let me see if I'm correctly picking up vibes in the responses so far, or if I'm reading too much into things.
It appears to me that there is some subtle resistance to the idea of the continuous random images feeding into the game, which surprises me. Would people prefer a mechanism using cards instead? And if so, why? Is it because cards can be controlled more?
It also surprises me that there hasn't been any objection to the "messages" idea. I'm sure people here perceived the contest-like or even puzzle-like nature of the proposed mechanism. This means if I go this route I'm combining strongly Narrativist and Gamist elements. I know there's no theoretical reason why this can't be done, but would such a combination limit its appeal?
The answer to both questions is most likely that I haven't given enough detail about any particulars to make it possible to judge for this particular game (and it wasn't my intention to elicit critical judgment at this stage). But considering both questions instead as matters of general taste, I'd welcome any opinions about them as I begin the next steps.
- Walt
On 4/7/2002 at 12:54am, Ron Edwards wrote:
RE: My Dream Game
Hi Walt,
Lots of discussion has yielded the general agreement that game design "elements" can't be labeled G, N, or S very easily. They factor very quickly into things like Stance, IIEE, DFK, and Currency, but the GNS goal is facilitated by combination during play, and their interaction with the Reward system.
In other words, a given mechanic or technique probably shouldn't be considered G, N, or S without further context. For instance, bidding points in Hero Wars scares some people - they think it implies some tactical contest between GM and players, which sounds Gamist to them (even if they don't know or like GNS terminology). However, I don't think it's controversial among anyone who has played this game, or really given all of its components some thought, that Hero Wars is brutally Narrativist, bidding and all.
So that's why, I think, no one's pointed a trembling finger and quavered, "Gaaaamist!" at the system ... we've seen and discussed a lot of games in which puzzle or tactical elements play a supportive, not defining role in the goals that the game facilitates best.
Best,
Ron
P.S. Sorry about the purple prose at the end there. I'm not caricaturing you, just getting festive with funny imagery.
On 4/7/2002 at 6:56am, Demonspahn wrote:
Shameless Plug
Dreamwalker: Roleplaying in the Land of Dreams is currently at the printer and hopefully available for purchase within the next month or so.
In short, Dreamwalkers are able to travel into the REM dreams of others in order to help them solve problems. As to Messages, we used a dream "goal" (called denouements) as the framework for the "adventures" which could be anything and take place anywhere. Completing the dream's denouement resulted in the Dreamer waking up feeling refreshed and well rested.
Enter our bad guys, the Taenia Spiritus---hive-minded spiritual parasites that derive sustenance from generating negative emotions in the Dreamer's psyche as he sleeps. They try to hinder the Dreamer from achieving his dream's denouement without actually ending the dream or causing him to wake up (which renders the colony dormant), feeding off the feelings of failure and disappointment this creates.
Dreamwalkers must enter the dreams of others to combat and hopefully destroy the hive. Achieving the dream's denouement weakens the Taeniid colony by producing feelings of triumph and euphoria in the mind of the Dreamer.
I'm stopping here. I had meant the shameless plug title to be "tongue in cheek" and now I fnd myself writing an ad promo. If anyone has any questions about Dreamwalker, please email me.
Walt, here are some titles from our bibliography that you may find useful. Some have been mentioned already:
Movies
-Dreamscape
-The Cell
-What Dreams May Come
-The Matrix
-The Adventures of Baron Munchausen
-Dark City
-Nightmare on Elm Street (3 is best)
-Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon
-The Crow
-The Serpent and the Rainbow
-Time Bandits
-Sliders (TV series)
Books and Music
-Anything by Stephen King. He writes at least 1 dream sequence per book that foreshadows what is to come and is very good at what he does (IMHO).
-Imajica, Clive Barker
-The Death Gate Cycle, Weis and Hickman
-Bob Dylan. His lyrics produce unbelievable and surreal imagery, not surprising considering the source. :)
----
Anyway, I hope some of this helps. If I am coining the common phrases on this board correctly, your game sounds a bit more Narrativist than ours, which is rules-written as Simulationist (with the unfortunate potential to be highly Gamist). However, most of our playtesting groups, focused more on character interaction and development, exploring the boundaries of the individual dream environments and achieving the dream's denouement rather than the mission-objective-combat formula. Also, we included some information on adapting to different styles of play including using characters from other game systems.
I think dream based RPG's are too few and under represented and the more dream RPG's out there, the better, so good luck. If you have any questions, feel free to email me.
Pete