OK my idea for the game is to have as simple a character gen (and rules) system as possible.

The PC's sheet will consist of
1. The attributes these are Brain (intelligence) Fist (anything physical including manual dexterity and strength) and Tong (sort of like social skills) and there point pool. (explained later)
2. there sin and virtue (one of each of the 7 sins and 7 virtues)
3. There soul bar (a scale that moves from -7 to 7. O being neutral)
4.condition bar (consist of Great/OK/Hurt/Bad/unconscious)
5.Injury box( this will take care of what condition your character is i in more detail e.g he is in bad condition because his legs has been broken)
6. things box (your inventory)

OK now that's what the character consist of, here is the niggly bit. The players have NO skills only attributes. How rolls work is that if a player wants to attempt anything and appropriate attribute is selected (like shooting a gun is Fist casting any kind of spell (don't worry i will have a simple magic system) is Brain)
Each attribute also has a Pool of points which is allotted to each attribute at Character Generation from a point total of 100(say for me i will have 50 on brain 25 in Fist and 25 in Tong) . This is so that when you roll your dice if your straight roll doesn't roll high enough you add points from the attribute pool to bump up the score to the required level (these CAN be regenerated but only by roleplaying your characters sin). So for instance say I  want to Jump a crevice I need to roll (main dice for game is a d20) a 15 to succeed. I roll the dice and get 10 this is not enough to make it across. so say i put 25 points into my Fist attribute (the appropriate attribute) at character generation i would take 5 point from the pool and add it to my roll to get the required score. This means i have only 20 points left to add to Fist checks from then on for the rest of the game (unless i roleplay my sin and then the GM will reward me with pol points to spend regenerate any lost ones) This means i have to either choose to fail some other rolls later on or i have to roll play my sin (thus hurting my chances of getting into heaven). This Will promote forwad thinking on the part of the player.

About there sin and virtue: player chooses one of the 7 deadly sins(Pride,Envy,Gluttony,Lust,Anger,Greed and Sloth) as there negative part of themselvesand one of the 7 heavenly virtues(Truth,Love,Courage,Wisdom,Creativity,Tolerance and Freedom) as a positive side of there personalty. You get back pool points for roll playing you sin (but each time you do moves you soul bar to the negative side) and get back Condition stages for roleplaying your virtue).

The should bar will always start off as at most -1 or below to show your condition of your soul (the harder the GM wants the game the worse he makes the soul but it will always start at at MOST -1)

Your condition bar always start at Great and the conditions are pretty much explanatory.

This is more of a role playing aid  if you were hit in the legs baldy then you would writ this in here to help with roleplaying this and to keep track of how you were injured.

Things box always starts empty FULL STOP. also there are no rules as to how much you can carry but this is left for people to  think logically about.

OK this is the character generation and some of the rules to the game I'M mostly looking for feedback on whether this makes seance to everybody i know it works in my head but have i got it down in a way that it is understandable (and if you want to praise me for the idea as well feel free ;-) )

Hi Robert,

I like the idea of having a simple system. I think you could get it even more simple - and I think it would be at least as good, if not better - if you focused more on what you actually want this game to be about.

I think the idea of being able to "buy up" results - if I need a 15, but roll a 10, I can get those extra 5 points from somewhere - is great. You said in the other thread "you could force your way in [to Heaven] (but that's more likely to be committing a sin) but ingenuity to get in is the best way (again reflection real life boarder hopping)", and I think this is a good way to start making the game be about this kind of thing.

But, how about instead of having the four pools - one for each attribute - you can alter the state of your sin/virtues instead. For example, say I want to subdue a patrolman who's out looking for me. That is difficulty 16, say, and I roll a 10. I can increase my Anger sin score by 6 points to succeed. But obviously the higher my Sin ratings increase, the harder it is for me to be accepted into Heaven. This means that you can do away with the soul bar as well, I think. Just total up the number of points you have in all your Sins (say I end up with Anger:12, Pride:3 and Greed:4 when I reach Heaven - my soul is 19 points to the bad).

This is kind of similar to the system that Joe mentioned in his post on the other thread. I think it is worth looking at again. It certainly fulfills the objective of "you can succeed in doing things if you risk your chances of being accepted into Heaven. But if you don't Sin a bit you may well not be able to get to Heaven in the first place..." which are the kind of decisions I think you want your players to be making.

One thing that does strike me though is how you regain points. You mention that "(unless i roleplay my sin and then the GM will reward me with pol points to spend regenerate any lost ones)". Is it just up to the GM to decide what counts as good roleplaying of your Sin, and how many points that is worth? That's putting a lot of power and pressure on the GM. Basically, the players are roleplaying for the GM and hoping for a "yes, have some points" instead of a "no, that's not good enough".

Can the GM say yes or no as much as he likes, or does he have a limited number of points he has to spend in order to give one result over another? This is basically the question Callan asked in the other thread. What about if, instead of the GM alone making a call based on someone's roleplaying, all the players can pass counters (call 'em indulgences or something?) to one another whenever they think that another player is doing a great job of roleplaying out a Sin or whatever. A player can then trade in an indulgence counter to get back some points/reduce his Sin ratings. How do you feel about that?

Hope this is of some help,
Warren

so you mean that at the begging of the game you have a sin rating of say 0 and as you go through you raise this to accommodate what you need. e.g your idea so for the first roll in the game your anger is 0 if you want to hit them you need to roll 15. you roll a 10 so need 5 more points. you raise your anger to 5 to buy these extra points but that makes your anger sin 5 meaning that that 5 points counting against getting into heaven? so in the future every roll i make tha uses anger gets 5 points added to it? and then if i need to raise it again i can?

I think i understand what you mean I'll certainly think about this idea as it sound really good, But for the moment I'll keep gong with my own idea just so i get get to the end of this thread to see what other people think.

This is kind of similar to the system that Joe mentioned in his post on the other thread. I think it is worth looking at again. It certainly fulfills the objective of "you can succeed in doing things if you risk your chances of being accepted into Heaven. But if you don't Sin a bit you may well not be able to get to Heaven in the first place..." which are the kind of decisions I think you want your players to be making.

Hi!
  Well, I think you can add a dash of color by giving your attributes hellish names (cruelty instead of fist, etc). And since you can't die in hell, I am not sure if you need condition and injury. It might make sense to have a suffering bar... Finally, I would suggest no "0" slot on your soul bar, unless you want to add a 3rd region for people to go to, lol
  I think you have used virtues and vices in a very clever way, this is really shaping up quickly, good job!

I see Soul listed as starting at zero and going from -7 to 7.  But I only see ways to reduce Soul (by exercising Sin).  Exercising Virtue doesn't increase Soul, but rather increases Condition.  Now I actually like that, but it does leave a bit of a gap here.

People are really, really, really going to want to increase their Soul.  If there's a way to do it, that's going to attract attention.  Is there?

Hi Robert,

zompire wrote:
so you mean that at the begging of the game you have a sin rating of say 0 and as you go through you raise this to accommodate what you need. e.g your idea so for the first roll in the game your anger is 0 if you want to hit them you need to roll 15. you roll a 10 so need 5 more points. you raise your anger to 5 to buy these extra points but that makes your anger sin 5 meaning that that 5 points counting against getting into heaven? so in the future every roll i make tha uses anger gets 5 points added to it? and then if i need to raise it again i can?

I think what I'm going to do with the repenting of your soul is that when you roleplay your virtue to the point where the GM would give you a chance to improve your physical condition i will let the player choose to improve there condition of there soul instead so your choosing wether to have a healthy body , or a healthy soul

Heya,

I think what I'm going to do with the repenting of your soul is that when you roleplay your virtue to the point where the GM would give you a chance to improve your physical condition i will let the player choose to improve there condition of there soul instead so your choosing wether to have a healthy body , or a healthy soul

Forgive me if this is just plain wrong, since I haven't been following this development thread since the beginning, but what if your Sin scores could be reduced by successes? Warren suggest raising a Sin score to succeed at an action e.g. you need 15 to hit someone and roll 10, so you gain 5 Anger; conversely, what if you had rolled 18 when you needed 15? You could reduce your Anger by 3 and still succeed... how would that work? Would this help? Could a mechanic like this help with the Soul bar? Sorry if none of this is helpful at all, but I'm commenting largely from ignorance, so please forgive me for any lapses of judgement.

well i personally would prefer to keep my original system. I do appreciate the idea people that's why i used this site but I think i have decided to use this basic system and maybe re jig some of the things, such as redemption of the soul. what i am going to do (not tonight its a bit late ;-) ) is have a sample creation of a character on this thread (possibly another aptly named one ) and ask you to create your own and see wether it works or not. ( it probably dose but I'm wondering how easy it is for it to be done)

Thanks for all the help
Robert

Hi Robert,

I'm glad we were able to help. It is your game, and we can't force you to do anything, but I would strongly suggest considering Troy's point. Having rules to cover how and when a player can increase his soul and/or condition by roleplaying his Virtues is a very, very good idea, and can help your game if you focus on it more.

Hope to see your character generation example soon.

Warren

OK .. Here the example of character gen . First some backround of the character, His name is Jarret love, was a father of 4 ,three to his wife and 1 to his mistress, so his SIN is Lust. He was a professional painter so his VIRTUE is creativity.
(If it isn't to clear why he went to hell its because of his infidelity)

His stats are as followed (from 100 points) Brain:50 Fist:20 Tong:30 this is because he was a painter so Brain would be as result of his creativity. The other two being the way they because he was a better talker than a fighter.

as explained in the first post his condition starts as Great and his Things Box is empty.

(change to the SOUL Process you roll a D8 each representing there - counterpart on the scale 8 being a 0)

I Roll a 5 on my SOUL bar Roll so he Got quite a bit of work to do to get his soul Clean again.

Now that i have made a character can i ask that people reading this can you please do the same so that i may get an idea on how easy my description on the Character generation process is clear or not (please use THIS post in conjunction with the first post on this Thread to fully undertsand the process if unclear)

Sorry this may seem quite bad to be pleading for attention and comments but I'm getting  bit worried wether people have lost interst in my game?

Hi Robert

Sorry about the delay in getting back to you. I think one thing that has slowed responses down is that asking us to create characters based on your example and your notes at the start of this thread isn't really very useful, I think. If you wrote up a full document that was playtestable, then I think you will get more interest and discussion can move to Actual Play of the playtest sessions.

But to answer your questions, I think character creation is fairly clear, but I feel it doesn't really reinforce what your game is about. Lets look at your example; I can't really see anything in "Sin:Lust, Virtue:Creativity, Brain:50, Fist:20, Tong:30, Soul:5" that makes me think of your concept of "A painter and family man who was sent to hell because of his infidelity".

I can come up with a character who is a sly con-man, who had to survive on the streets using only his wits and ingenuity until he started to obsess over a stripper and raped her one night on the way home. And he could have exactly the same stats, even though the actual character is very different. Is that what you want? It could be, and that's cool, but I think you might want a little more here.

Also, your game seems to be about (I'm paraphrasing from what we discussed on your other thread - tell me if I've got this wrong): "Characters trying to get across the border between Heaven and Hell, evading the Demonic and Angelic patrols and whatever else is in their way. Also, they must try to cleanse their Soul so they can pass the Heaven Acceptance interview when they reach the other side. But Sinning makes things so much easier, and it is always a temptation, but Sin on your soul makes it less likely they will get accepted.". Also you said that you want the players to come up with cool ways of getting their characters across - emphasizing that brains are as useful (if not more so) than brawn.

I can't see how your character creation really drives home what your game is about, and there doesn't seem to be many character resources (not just equipment - skills, stats, everything counts) that the player can use to come up with cool, inventive ways of having their characters escape. Also, as Troy said, above, it seems like a lot of the game rests on the GM fiat, which a lot of people here don't really care for. If you adjusted your game a bit, I think it would be a lot stronger, as the core idea behind it is so cool. It's just that the systems presented here don't really bring that cool idea to the front.

So, I would suggest two ways for you to proceed; Create a playtestable document of your game as you see it now, and get people playing it and posting about the sessions over on Actual Play, which will help us help you a great deal.

Or, you could go through Troy's Power 19 questions (here: http://socratesrpg.blogspot.com/2006/01/what-are-power-19-pt-1.html) and answer them and post those up in a new thread, and work with us to refine your game idea.

A good example of how to answer the Power 19 can be found here http://mightyatom.blogspot.com/2006/02/19-questions-stranger-things.html. Look how thorough John is in answering each question. Note also that he doesn't spend loads of text explaining every detail. He states his answer and his rationale for each each answer. If we could get something like that from you about Asylum Seekers, that would be great!

Is that OK? I don't want this to seem like a "brush-off", as this is a cool idea that I would like to see published someday.

Warren

OK My idea for the character being so short also is that I'm not planning on asylum seekers being an In depth Rules game, But i can see your point.
To answer on the playtesting front, this may be a few weeks into the future before i get a playtest because of allot going on with my life at the moment, but i will make sure and get one down to help people.
I would like to ask one questions actual how do you think that I could make it so the characters are more individual for each player, I was going more for the point of having the players Roleplay more to individualise themselves in the game but any suggestion to help on that front would be nice especially since This is a system Ive had in mind for a LONG time and i have grown attached to it for this reason i am trying to get feedback on how OTHER people could help improve it cause as up to this point only I have really known about it and it works well in my head but then again i am going to be publishing this in the future so other people is really who counts here.

Thanks
Robert