http://rpgtalk.net/judd/files/

At the above address I posted a pdf (thanks to the adobe skillz of Josh) of a one-sheet, character and demon sheets and descriptor list for Blood Simple, a noir setting for Sorcerer in which demons are bad people from the wrong side of town.

Holy crap Judd this looks awesome!  As you know I have been trying to get my Sorcerer game off the ground (with some difficulty) and I have only managed to get a couple of players interested.  This would really suit a solo game or a game for a pair of cops forced to work together (L.A. Confidential), I could really sell them on this.  Case solved...

Here are the links about the game:

Gangster Sorcerer: Demons from the Hell Side of Town

[Sorcerer, Actual Play] Run & Write Demons From the Hell-side of Town, RPG.net

[Sorcerer] Write & Run Demons from the Hell-side of Town, Forge

I played it twice and I'm still not sure how I felt about demons as people.

Maybe some rules for turning people into demons are necessary.

I dunno.

It never quite clicked for me a hundred percent.

Hi Judd,

Are you familiar with the TV show The Shield? And now that I think of it, I guess I mean really really familiar, in that you've seen the episodes and know their details and could recount the whole story at the drop of a hat, and maybe look forward to opportunities to do so.

Probably not. Oh well. (which is only to say I'm sorta weird about this show)

Anyway, for those who are into it, recall the first five episodes of the first season.

- Guy 1 and Guy 2 carry out a murder, with Guy 1 as the instigator and leader and Guy 2 as the loyal backup.

- Guy 2 gets nervous and guilty, and almost confesses. He gets a little nuts and almost executes a person because "that's what we do now, right?"

- Guy 1 breaks him, psychologically. He states the cover story for the murder as fact. He lays down the rules for Guy 2. He subordinates Guy 2 to his will, utterly.

- Guy 2 obeys, fully, and never again even thinks of confessing. However, he becomes, effectively, a human attack dog that's been beaten into submission - loyal, desperate to please, very unclear on details and long-term goals, often unpredictable when not watched, and prone to random acts of abuse and aggression. (I shall take the opportunity to praise the actor in question, unreservedly. I've never seen a person literally play an abused Doberman before, and he does so with his whole body, completely convincingly.)

Guy 2 provides quite a bit of the motor for some primary plotlines in the show, mainly by doing stuff that's whacked-out in some way, and later, by trying to carve out a little tiny piece of his life that isn't totally emotionally dominated by Guy 1 (unsuccessfully). The core of his character is that, unlike Guy 1, he knows he's a bad cop, and has no sense of boundaries or duty remaining. Now, his only compass points toward what Guy 1 wants.

So from then on, for Guy 2, it's (a) getting things "right" for Guy 1 (which are of course not ethically or professionally right), (b) getting things "wrong" (by which I mean failing to do something as desired by Guy 1), and (c) being a loose cannon (which he accomplishes with startling regularity).

It doesn't help that Guy 1 believes, really and truly, that he is an OK guy and that the murder was "necessary" for him to continue to be a good guy. Most of the time he simply shuts the event out. Once in a while, he thinks he can make up for it. His state of mind is worth a whole essay, as some of my email correspondents know to their sorrow, but right now, I'm going to make the most basic point:

Guy 1 is a sorcerer. Guy 2 is a demon - he was made into a demon in the third episode of season 1. All their interactions since then arise from that.

Thanks for reading this, 'cause I realize it was damn near a threadjack posted out of sheer disgusting fanboy energy.

Best, Ron

Ron wrote:
Hi Judd,

Are you familiar with the TV show The Shield? And now that I think of it, I guess I mean really really familiar, in that you've seen the episodes and know their details and could recount the whole story at the drop of a hat, and maybe look forward to opportunities to do so.

Guy 1 is a sorcerer. Guy 2 is a demon - he was made into  a demon in the third episode of season 1. All their interactions since then arise from that.

I think there has got to be a system way of turning someone into a demon.

Perhaps beating them in three different conflicts in each of the stats, Will, then Stamina and Lore, then they are a demon, leading into a Contact from the successes on the last conflict rolling over into the Contact roll.

The only people you can't do that to are Sorcerers.  They can only go demon by going to 0 Humanity.

Hm, Blood Simple might've just heated up for me.

I'm not sure.

Something to think about.

Thanks, Chris, I'm glad you dig Blood Simple and I will surely check out The Shield when I have a chance.

The Shield is a great TV show, I don't know much about The Wire though.  However I have been thinking about what happens to the "Demons" in blood-simple after their arrest.  Imagine the TV show OZ (HBO)!  All those "Demons" locked up together, their needs barely met, or in most cases not met at all!  The frustration in a place like that would be incredible with riot's, lockdowns, sexual tension and a very weird black market economy.  Consider going into the prison to question your suspect and a huge riot kicking off , that's a killer bang right there.  Imagine what a nightmare it would be for a PC having to go in there undercover...

Jason13 wrote:
Consider going into the prison to question your suspect and a huge riot kicking off , that's a killer bang right there.  Imagine what a nightmare it would be for a PC having to go in there undercover...

Can I add the Coen Bros' first film Blood Simple to the references? I you haven't seen it, please do. It's brilliant.

I was wondering if your Blood Simple sheet might be the entry point for Sorcerer for some of my more sceptical friends. They are turned off by "demons", you see, no idea why, when you know how versatile the concept is (in Sorcerer).

How do you approach the supernatural when playing Blood Simple? Do you intentionally try to keep it low key in actual play. Are there any demonic abilities that you would not use, for example?

Nice work, Judd :)

Per

Paka wrote: I think there has got to be a system way of turning someone into a demon.

Hi Judd,

I've been mulling this over and I have a few questions.

Fristly in blood-simple the emphasis seems to be on a Noir type of feel.  Does this mean that the stories set here and the moral choices made would be told in shades of grey rather than in black and white? 

In the fiction and the movies it's very rare that someone does something purely good or evil, but when they do it stands out for all to see.  This leads me to my second question.

If a Human can become a Demon in blood-simple can a Demon be redeemed and become a Human?  Perhaps using the suggestions in Sorcerer and Soul?

I admit in such a dark setting it would be rare, but even in real life we have all heard of people committing terrible crimes and being redeemed.  Thus ridding themselves of their "Inner Demon's".

How supernatural is the setting?  By that I mean do people know that they are different when they finally cross that line and head through Dante's tunnel?  Or is it more symbolic than that?

Finally is it intentional that there is no list of valid Past's and Prices yet?  Because if that is the case I would love to see what you come up with next.

Regards

Jason

Jason13 wrote:
Fristly in blood-simple the emphasis seems to be on a Noir type of feel.  Does this mean that the stories set here and the moral choices made would be told in shades of grey rather than in black and white? 

Jason13 wrote:
If a Human can become a Demon in blood-simple can a Demon be redeemed and become a Human?  Perhaps using the suggestions in Sorcerer and Soul?

Jason13 wrote:
How supernatural is the setting?  By that I mean do people know that they are different when they finally cross that line and head through Dante's tunnel?  Or is it more symbolic than that?

Jason13 wrote:
Finally is it intentional that there is no list of valid Past's and Prices yet?  Because if that is the case I would love to see what you come up with next.

angelfromanotherpin wrote:

Paka wrote: I think there has got to be a system way of turning someone into a demon.

It seems like a perfectly straightforward adaptation of the rules using sacrifice to assist Summoning.  At the end, you have one less human and one more Demon.

Very cool, different Director styles for the two sides of the city!  Wow I am loving this.

Would you indulge me with one more question Judd?

If Tony Soprano appeared as a character in Blood Simple would he be a Human or a Demon?

Regards

Jason

Jason13 wrote:
If Tony Soprano appeared as a character in Blood Simple would he be a Human or a Demon?

In Judd's reply, you will find a lesson to be learned about Sorcerer and about role-playing in general, Jason.

Your question was nonsensical. Think it over, figure out why, and when you think you've got it (I recommend 24 hours) then post it here.

Best, Ron

I just want to commend the brilliance of using the sacrifice rules as the way to model making a person into your demon thing.

Also I want to ask about Necromancy in the setting.  I can easily see weapons, trade mark kill methods, and similar things acting well as Tokens for more ruthless Sorcerers.  The kill easily, win respect from low lives, and deaden you emotionally until you end up just another killer on the Hell-side of town.

Hi Ron,

The context of my question was to find out where Judd would have Tony Soprano appear on the spectrum of Human to Demon in a Blood Simple game. In part to get a better angle on where he is coming from in respect of cultural references and also as a bit of fun because he seems like a good guy. 

Perhaps I phrased the question incorrectly?  I know that there are multiple different answers to the question, after all I have read the rules multiple times.  I picked Tony Soprano because he has many admirable qualities and lot of undesirable qualities.  So again I ask the question to you Judd and anyone else who wants to chip in with their thoughts, if Tony Soprano appeared in your game of Blood Simple what would he be and why?

Is that clear enough now for you now Ron?

Regards

Jason

I am not asking for clarity. Your question is not unclear, it is nonsensical.

My post was a favor to you, in order to instruct you in something important. Consider your next step carefully.

Best, Ron

I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about Ron!  It all seems pretty simple to me. 

You know who is going to play in your game.
You explain the premise of Blood Simple
You help them create PC's that they want to play.
You link them that into your r-map with their cool kickers.

..and one of the NPC's on the r-map is Tony Soprano or someone based very closely on him (because he is cool) what do you think he would be and how would you play him in that game for your group...

and what is this "consider your next step carefully" all about?

If you have something to say, then just say it.  No need to be obtuse.

This is supposed to be a forum to discuss a roleplaying game (a fun activity), not a class in Zen theology.

Regards

Jason

Consider your next step carefully = what you just failed to do. I suggest spending some time at Story Games or Anyway, which are better environments for you at this point.

I'm done with this conversation, Jason. Don't post to it again. More discussion of Judd's material and thoughts is welcome.

Best, Ron

Damn. I am moderating myself. Ralph just made a really good suggestion.

The issue here is that I am not willing to help you revise your question, Jason. It's my hangup, not yours.

So - Jesse, Judd, whoever, can you dig up some threads that'll help get Jason on track? I'm the wrong guy and obviously way too stubborn.

Best, Ron

Hi Ron,

I am not trying to be difficult, I just really don't understand why what I am saying is wrong?

To make me feel doubly bad, I now feel like I am screwing up Judd's thread with what I thought was a fun question.

I am also quite stubborn as well but if I am shown why I am in the wrong I will admit it and move on...

Regards

Jason

Jason,

Although I don't have any threads to point you towards in order to help you understand why Ron's right that your question is nonsensical, let me point out a few things that you should be ware of:

1) Ron is not trying to be difficult or harsh by refusing to help you.  He is in his "teacher" mode and in this case that means the appropriate pedagogical approach is to step back and tell you that you need to do some work to figure out why your question was nonsensical.

2) Anyone here could  give you an answer to your question, "Why is what I am saying wrong?"  To do so, however, would ultimately be of less long-term benefit to you than for you to figure it out on your own.  Plenty of people here are very patient with this process and willing to steer you in the right direction, but ultimately it is in your best interests to do the work yourself.  What you will gain by doing so will vastly outweigh whatever short-term payoff you might get from someone simply handing you an answer.

3) Ron has pointed to the place where you want to start this process.  Judd's reply really contains everything you need to figure this one out on your own.  You actually don't need a single link to any other thread because the answer is staring you in the face.  So, start by thinking about how Judd's response (which in another context might come across as simply waffling on or dodging the original question of "Would Tony be a demon or a sorcerer?") is actually the answer to the question "Why is my question nonsensical?"  In what way is Judd's seeming non-answer an answer to a much more important question and issue?

I hope that helps.  Really, it is important to realize that no one here is trying to play Mr. Superior Zen Master or anything like that.  It is all about helping you to learn something by trusting that your own no-doubt very fine brain can figure this out on its own.

Cheers,

Eric

Eric wrote:
3) Ron has pointed to the place where you want to start this process.  Judd's reply really contains everything you need to figure this one out on your own.  You actually don't need a single link to any other thread because the answer is staring you in the face.  So, start by thinking about how Judd's response (which in another context might come across as simply waffling on or dodging the original question of "Would Tony be a demon or a sorcerer?") is actually the answer to the question "Why is my question nonsensical?"  In what way is Judd's seeming non-answer an answer to a much more important question and issue?

Jason13 wrote:
Hi Ron,

I am not trying to be difficult, I just really don't understand why what I am saying is wrong?

To make me feel doubly bad, I now feel like I am screwing up Judd's thread with what I thought was a fun question.

I am also quite stubborn as well but if I am shown why I am in the wrong I will admit it and move on...

Regards

Jason

Page 58 and 113 of core Sorcerer book?

Hey Judd,

As I said in PM I think the one-sheet and character sheet are super spiffy.  Looking them over, though, I remembered that there was some discussion in the past about the Stamina descriptors shading over, in certain cases, into areas covered by Cover.  These all look really good, but "Foxy Dame" still seems to be a descriptor that could extend itself beyond things ordinarily covered by Stamina.

What do you think of something like "Body That Won't Quit" or "Great Pair of Gams" as substitutes?  They're still evocative of the hard-boiled detective genre, but they seem a bit more restricted to the physical arena covered by Stamina.

Just a thought.  Let us know how it all plays out.

Eric

Eric wrote:
Hey Judd,

As I said in PM I think the one-sheet and character sheet are super spiffy.  Looking them over, though, I remembered that there was some discussion in the past about the Stamina descriptors shading over, in certain cases, into areas covered by Cover.  These all look really good, but "Foxy Dame" still seems to be a descriptor that could extend itself beyond things ordinarily covered by Stamina.

What do you think of something like "Body That Won't Quit" or "Great Pair of Gams" as substitutes?  They're still evocative of the hard-boiled detective genre, but they seem a bit more restricted to the physical arena covered by Stamina.

Just a thought.  Let us know how it all plays out.

Eric

Ben, Aaron and Tony are going to play in a play by post Blood Simple Sorcerer game.

No idea if this medium works for me or not.  We'll see.

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=256742

There are times I want to quote bits from Ron's Art Deco Melodrama thread verbatim.

Thanks for posting this,Judd, I will forllow the thread avidly. Why did you choose to post on rpg.net instead af here (or Storygames for that matter)?

Per

pfischer wrote:
Thanks for posting this,Judd, I will forllow the thread avidly. Why did you choose to post on rpg.net instead af here (or Storygames for that matter)?

Per

Ron wrote:
In Judd's reply, you will find a lesson to be learned about Sorcerer and about role-playing in general, Jason.

Your question was nonsensical. Think it over, figure out why, and when you think you've got it (I recommend 24 hours) then post it here.

Best, Ron

The way I see it, that's half of it, or most of it.

Hiya,

Actually, not really. When playing the game, thematic and behavioral distinctions between demon and human are thorough. Power is one thing; Humanity is another.

I appreciate your attention to the issue, though. So here's some help. Check out my Narrativism: Story Now essay, specifically the section near the beginning called "Story." My example regarding Lord Gyrax, in particular. See how that might apply to the question about Tony Soprano.

Then, when you've arrived at a conclusion about that, post it here. I have one more point to make for folks who can get that far.

Best, Ron

I'm seeing this a few different ways, but none of them are hitting me hard enough, or clicking loudly enough, to make me say "Aha! That's what it is!". One, however, stands at the forefront of my mind as the one that seems most likely to mesh with sorceror (as sorceror, to me, has always seemd to be a game more concerned with enabling the players to effectively tell a story, rather one that creates character, or one that creates stories).

The question of whether Tony Soprano is a sorceror or a demon is non-sensical because there is no distinction between the two. Not that they are not distinguished as ideas - no one is going to confuse the demon for the sorceror, nor do I mean to inject some sort of in-character reasoning of the demon being some sort of extension of the character. Specifically, it seems to me that there is no distinction between the two because they are a single tool created by the player to be his primary method of conveying and shaping the story he wishes to tell. As such, the demon is no more distinguishable from the sorceror than a sword is from a story about a famous swordsman; the story is conveyed through, enabled by, and may arise from their relationship and co-existence. A story about a famous swordsman may be about the famous man, the famous sword style, or the famous battles, but ultimately these are all lenses through which one can come to view /the story/, which is what sorceror is concerned with. If Tony Soprano is a demon to a sorceror, or a sorceror to a demon, their final story is still going to be what we're concerned with - not which of them we happen to use to pen the story.

I do hope I'm getting the idea. I'd be rather unhappy to be twisting your ear with terrible mis-interpretations.