I am... you could say.... a gamer.

I do not play Diablo or any non-RPG game that thinks it's an RPG. I love D&D even though the D6 Starwars is WAY better. If anyone would umm... MAKE A GENERAL FORUM! I DON'T KNOW WHERE THIS POST GOES! AHHHH!

I've often thought that I'd like to post something at the Forge, but it would have to go into the general forum, which isn't extant. Still, I dunno, a general forum wouldn't be... forgey. This is really a rather focused environment, and I think that's how Ron intends it. Not libertarian-moderated like RPGnet. Frankly, a "general forum" post probably belongs better there. Too bad the signal-to-yahoo ratio is so much lower...

There's actually a THREAD to say "hello" in, in a focused way -
http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=843
Don't forget to read "the rules", but no one's going to beat you up for minor transgressions . . .

Gordon

Well in that case, hello all RPG fans and fellow nerds (not all RPG fans are nerds because of that pile of crap Diablo so I must state it as.. the way I have stated it)..

:)

Hi Scratchware, and welcome to the Forge.

You said you liked D&D - well, since this is Actual Play, tell us why. What was the last session like? Don't give a blow-by-blow account of the storyline, but tell us what it was like, what elements of play or interactions among the group were plain old fun, on the spot.

Which D&D was it? Why that one, in particular?

Best,
Ron

Actually, I haven't played for about 3 weeks. I have however played Starwars D6 which is similar to playing D&D but the battle system is WAY better and it is set in the Starwars universe (more fun I think).

But I will explain my first campaign that I ever played.

We had 3 players (including me) and Anthony was the DM. I was a Female Cleric with an attitude. Doug was a fighter (as usual) and Eric was a mage (as usual). BTW, when I say as usual it is because they now always play what they did then while I get to taste some variety (druid is one thing I have not been however).

We went through the initial D&D campaign that came with in the box (you know, the one where you get to meet Elminster). It was kinda fun for me but my companions were complaining... I could say I used about a million "Cure Light Wounds" on them.

Eric, the mage, died a couple times when we had to fight the 6 giant spiders. Even though we were level 2, our intelligence made up for it and we defeated them. It was so awesome! Here is what happened:
We entered a large room in the cavern and found some huge spider webs. We quietly went in (with me being a half elf that wasn't hard). We went to the other side of the room and tried to get up into an elevated doorway. After we all climbed up there were some glowing eyes. It is safe to say that we all freaked... The spider charged us while another moved in from the back. Eric used shield to guard us while Doug put on his invisible ring. I sat and pouted.... I AM A FREAKING CLERIC! AHHHH! I took out my sling and started pounding them. Eric used magic missle and Doug slashed with his sword. We killed the first one but not without Eric dying. Without our party leader me and doug had to work some plans up. I stared shooting with my sling to make it back out of the hole. Then me and doug jumped out and moved around it to the back. Seing as how Doug found a bow earlier in the campaign and I could enchant my stones, I set his arrows on fire and enchanted my bullets and we fired into the center of the web structer which happened to be on the ceiling. The whole place was burning while we turned to the last spider with an evil look on our faces. WE FIRED!

After that we picked up Eric and ran out of the cavern and back into town. Luckily we had a TON of money so we spent it on reviving him.

That is what my first D&D session was like.


EDIT: This was 2nd edition D&D by the way.

Hey,

Ummm, OK, but if you look at my last post, you'll see that you didn't answer my question at all. You did exactly what I asked you not to do.

To put it gently, I don't care much about what your character did and who killed what. What I care about is, as I said before:

... tell us what it was like, what elements of play or interactions among the group were plain old fun, on the spot.

The character is fictional; there is no "what it was like" for the character. I'm interested in what it was like for you. When I say "interactions among the group," I don't mean the characters. I mean the players and the GM.

Also, another thing I asked was why the group was playing AD&D2 (as it turns out). I mean this literally. It's not that you should or shouldn't have played it, but I'm interested in how it happened that you did. Did one member of the group already play, and just say that that's what it would be? Or did you all decide upon that one, after looking at a bunch of games? Or what?

Best,
Ron

Oh, I knew that but it was so fun I thought I would share it. :)

I didn't like the battle system too much because they mixed perception and knowledge and combined them into wisdom.. That is stupid. There are also some other bugs but I am kind of fried right now so I can't remember them.

All I can say after playing Starwars is....

PLAY STARWARS!

Hello Scratchware,

I'd like to ask you a big favor. When you're writing a new post, write it in a word-processing program, then paste it into the forum box later. This gives you a chance to read it over before posting.

In other words, unless I'm wrong, you're basically reading what I write, then slamming an answer in as soon as you're done. I wish you wouldn't do that, so we can have a conversation instead of you just blurting out whatever pops into your head.

As a general rule, I'd appreciate it if you didn't post at all when you feel fried. Think about it - would you be interested in what you have to say then?

Now here's my question for you. Several times, you've written that you like the Star Wars D6 system. Guess what? A bunch of people here at the Forge have played it - they may even have played it before you were born, depending on how old you are. So they will have a lot to talk about, with you.

But they won't do that unless you can offer something more substantial about your experience with it besides "Play Star Wars!" in big letters. Don't do that again, by the way. It's equivalent to shouting, and there ain't no shouting allowed here.

So tell me - and wait until you're not fried, and write the answer out first in a word-processing progam - what do you enjoy about playing Star Wars D6? Again, I don't care about your character. I'm interested in why you like that particular game, as a person engaged in role-playing.

Best,
Ron

Okay, so no one asked, but I really do like this system, and I was very dissapointed when they d20'd it (and when they d20'd Deadlands, and Cthulu, and my dog, and my cat, and my brother, and my FLGS, and everything else...be safe knowing that The Riddle of Steel is a d20-free product line, so help me Xanar, and Triumph, and Fahal...).

It's been a good two years since I played it, but I remember every game being fun.

First off, it's Star Wars. That has to be said. You've got stormtroopers, and lightsabers, and blasters, and hyperspace, and you've got that one player that goes "yub yub" instead of talking, because he's a friggin ewok (or a Wookie, or an R2 unit, or whatever). And you have the force.

What made the force special, though, wasn't the powers. Although they were pretty cool, many of them were too weak too early on (I wanted to play a JEDI, not a friggin Padawan with 4 midichlorians... ugh... midichlorians... dammit George!). It was the pull of the Dark side. It was "Join me, Obi-wan, and together, we'll eliminate the Sith..." or whatever. The mechanic beautifully handled the gradual fall of the Dark side and it's temptations (in the form of dice, of course).

Next, as many of you can guess, I'm a system monkey. I love dice, tables, and numbers, but I also like universality and "transparency" of system. The SW mechanic was very easy to pick up, had a "wild die" that made throwing dice fun, and had the most elegant system for ranged combat and generic multiple-action-in-one-round resolution that I've ever come accross. It was an extremely flexible system, IMO.

The dogfight rules were fun, too, as I recall, though I can't elaborate as it's been too long.

The game wasn't perfect (what is?), but it was fun, and it felt like SW to me--more than Episode One did, that's for sure.

Oh, and Scratchware--welcome to the Forge. I'm pretty new here, too, and it took me a while to get into all of this meta-GNS-IC-OOC gobly-gook, but the discussions here generally are quite meaningful (although GNS still gives me a friggin headache).

Pax Vobiscum,
Jake

I am sorry, again.

Okay. In the Starwars D6 system, you don't have any HP, you have health status (wounded, stunned, icapacitated, etc..), so mages can't be killed by being kicked (even though their are no mages). This allows people to actually fear a blaster to their head. Their are no super-humans! Yay!
They also modified the ability scores as follows:
Dexterity, Knowledge, Mechanical, Perception, Strength, and Technical. (Notice they broke Wisdom up into Perception and Technical which is really nice).

Then they went and threw out classes. Instead they use Template Types. "Wookie Arms Trader" would be one example even though you wouldn't want to be a Wookie Arms Trader (I would know, I got slapped around for that).

Anyone have any comments that I forgot about D6?

I think you're missing the point. Ron's not asking about the system, but more of "How did the game work for you and your group?" Notice that the focus is on the interreaction between you, your friends, and the rules, more than one or the other.

Chris

I'm gonna jump in here.

Scratchware wrote: I am sorry, again.

Okay. In the Starwars D6 system, you don't have any HP, you have health status (wounded, stunned, icapacitated, etc..), so mages can't be killed by being kicked (even though their are no mages). This allows

people to actually fear a blaster to their head. Their are no super-humans! Yay!

They also modified the ability scores as follows:
Dexterity, Knowledge, Mechanical, Perception, Strength, and Technical. (Notice they broke Wisdom up into Perception and Technical which is really nice).

Then they went and threw out classes. Instead they use Template Types. "Wookie Arms Trader" would be one example even though you wouldn't want to be a Wookie Arms Trader (I would know, I got slapped around for that).

I loved playing StarWars D6 when it was out. The rules were so simple and straightforward. It was easy to GM, too, because eveything was handled by a single mechanic. It made winging it easy and fun. One of my favorite roleplaying experiences was winging a raid on a Imperial detention center. My players just said "Let's rescue this guy's family!" and before you could say Kessel Run, off they went. It was great trying to keep up.

The only problem I had was (downcast look) I don't add quickly. This led to awkward pauses as I tried frantically to add up the pips on 7 dice, while the players could do it in microseconds. It seemed all my players were Rain Man: "Yeah, 27. Definitely 27. 10 minutes to Wapner." Drove me nuts.

I used their Hercues/Xena system, which later became DC Roleplaying. Essentially, it simplified the mechanics by using special dice. Each die had 4 successes and 2 failures. The wild die had special failure and success faces. Just count up the successes, more is better. Very fun, and saved me from further math embarassment.

I've tried the D20 system, and it's not my cup of tea. It's a tremendous step forward from AD&D, but there are still too many fiddly little special cases for my taste. They've tried to create "classless classes" for CoC, but you still have that level thing, where first levels are cannon fodder, and twenieth levels are demi- gods.

Hi there,

Doing great, Scratchware! No need to apologize. This is good.

If I'm not mistaken, Star Wars was the first "dice pool" game. The number on the sheet was simply the number of D6's you picked up and rolled. No adding attribute to the total. No trying to roll under the attribute. It was just, "Pick up and roll."

Am I mistaken? I might be missing some game or another, but as far as I can remember, until then, it was either 3d6 to roll under a target number (TFT, Champions, GURPS), d100 (BRP, Rolemaster), or d20 (AD&D).

Kirt raised some good questions. I think the issue of character class needs a substantial workout at RPG Theory - it's definitely been cast as an either-or issue in most internet discussions, and I think we'd all agree that "classes or no classes" is simply too simplistic to describe what RPGs actually do.

Best,
Ron

Okay, great, D6 has more attributes. Why is this good? Why is this arrangement inherently better than, say, the following system:

Cool: The ability for the character to remain calm, and to do suave social things.
Luck: The character's affinity for dumb luck.
Force: The character's affinity for nifty Force tricks.
Lore: Knowledge. Book learning. Technical know-how.

Is it "realism" that makes this better? Should Star Wars be realistic?

Um, okay. How are templates better than classes? What's wrong with classes? For that matter, aren't templates just classes under a different name?

Scratchware wrote: No, they are extremely different. You see, in D&D, a lot of things are based on what class your character is (HP for example). Does a fighter have the ability to take more hits from a weapon than a mage? I think not! Your template type is what you are. It determines what your initial equipment is and what knowledge you have about the surrounding universe.

Ian O'Rourke wrote:
You do realise that Star Wars D6 has numerous problems because it does not use classes? Such as all characters ending up being the same, and the GM having to control character power inflation himself?

Ian O'Rourke wrote:
As an example, D&D is very much about resource management, and really heroic characters.

Ian O'Rourke wrote:
So your comment above about realism (the mage/fighter issue) is actually irrelevant in many ways.
...
If a character suffers 20 damage, that might be a scrape for a fighter or a serious wound for a mage – look at the 20 damage as a percentage of his total HP. A fighter might see the 20 damage as a 6th of his hit points while a mage might see it as half.

Okay I'm backing out of this debate - the 'which system is better debate' - is not a function of the Forge - this is what numerous people on this thread missing, and it's what I and numerous others have tried to change.

The Forge is about discussing systems, styles, role-playing dynamics and how all of them interact. It is not about people complaining D&D is not realistic - it ain't supposed to be - that is my point. It's not about how good D6 is.

It's about how these systems promote a certain style of play, what elements a system brings to the table - how it influences the overall dynamic.

And this can only be done from within the context of what the system is meant to achieve.

If you've never seen D6 twinked then your seriously deluded. Your comments about D&D twinking again show your ignorance about the Forge's ethos. Every game can be twinked, especially those following a gamist principle and to some extent a simulation perspective (as I believe D6 would be categorized). It can be harder in narrativist games sometimes as they often give you less to twink - but it can be done.

We have to side above the D6 good, D20 bad argument. It's not the point of the Forge and it also not a good argument. They are just different and they bring different things to the table.

This thread probably should have been cancelled.

I'm sorry if I offended you in any way, Ian.

I do take some exception to these statements of yours:
> ...your seriously deluded.
> ...show your ignorance about the Forge's ethos.

> 'which system is better debate'

Which system fits the needs of the players better? Isn't that a better goal?

> Every game can be twinked, especially those following a gamist principle and to some extent a simulation perspective (as I believe D6 would be categorized). It can be harder in narrativist games sometimes as they often give you less to twink - but it can be done.

I prefer to design game systems that when twinked create the same behaviour in a munchkin or rules lawyer as they would in a role player. Basically creating a coherent system that rewards desirable behaviour. I've got a long way to go yet in my designs, I feel.

> We have to side above the D6 good, D20 bad argument.

I try not to make the mistakes in D&D and Star Wars, in rewarding undesirable behaviour (caution and paranoia) or behaviour that is incompatible with the rest of the system (injury, HP and cure light wounds), or creating behaviour that doesn't match the source material (Star Wars movies).

Ahhh, forget it, you caught me at a bad moment. I thought I'd learn to calm down before posting (even though it was not so much your post that annoyed me) but we are open to lapses in policy.

Let's forget it. Nothing to see. Move on :)

Hello,

I think Scratchware has made his case very clear regarding why he prefers D6 over AD&D, and I think Andrew has paraphrased it well. (Ian, obviously, this is a bad hair day for you. Thanks for recognizing this.)

Scratch, I want to tell you how much I appreciate you sticking with us! Clearly the Forge is a weird place, and at any moment someone suddenly descend into the conversation with a ton of bricks.

You probably won't be surprised that Star Wars, first edition, gained a huge number of fans and active players, the moment it was published in the late 80s - it was due to all the things you're mentioning.

So here's my question for you: Have you encountered, during play, any use of the rules for the Light/Dark sides of the Force? How have those rules affected any decisions you've made for your character?

Best,
Ron

P.S. Andrew, Star Wars predates Vampire, et al., by a wide margin, but you knew that, right? I think we might be stumbling over definitions of "dice pool." That term refers to using a number of dice as indicated by a number of some kind. One guy rolls four dice to nail the other guy, the other guy's rolling seven. That's a dice pool. Target numbers or not, other modifiers or not, etc, are all secondary. It's distinct from previous systems because in those, target numbers varied widely but the number of dice rolled was fixed for any character, any time.

Charly, since you seem unreluctant to post my name, I'm posting yours. Anyway, this conversation is NOT about D20 vs. D6 (That would be boring as D6 is far superior), but is about aspects of the two systems to incorperate. And, guys, give Scratchware (*ARGG* now how do we talk about Scratchware?) a break. He's my friend and he's unable to drive without an adult in the car. Anyway, because this is the ACTUAL PLAY part, I will continue with tales of my journeys.

My favorite aspect is how skills match the characters' personalities. You can make a character as versitle or as specialised as you want. The combat system could be improved, but I can stand it long enough to get to the starship battles.

Uhh. I ask you to move your conversation of the origins of the dice pool to another thread. This is because it is strictly off topic, has been continued, and most importantly becuause I don't care. Star Wars WEG was made after I was born (I think), but I wasn't old enough to appreciate it.

Good point, Pyron. The dice pool thing is getting split and moved, to RPG Theory.

We'll continue here with D6 Star Wars and other elements of Scratchware's play experiences.

Best,
Ron