Hey all,

So, I'm ramping up to a Sorcerer game, and right now my one big weakness is the Demonic Abilities.

Here's the breakdown:

1) For some reason I've always had an aversion to spells and lists and powers. Back in high school I kept the PCs at a low level (in part) to avoid all those damned spells I knew would catch me off guard every five minutes. It just seemed like it was always going to break the story elements -- which is what I cared about. ("I wish it away!")

Now, I know Sorcerer's demonic abilities are different than the back half of the Player Manual... but some part of me isn't "getting" the difference. If anyone empathizes or gets what I'm saying, a new point of view on this would would help. (By the way, I know that tapping the demonic abilities is a chance for trouble and dramatic ineteraction between the protagonist and the demon.)

2) I didn't play a lot of Champions back in the day (HERO, yes, but not Champions), and so the whole "mix n' match" modular power to create the effect you want isn't something I've got my head wrapped around yet. I'm frankly too literal about them.

Could someone offer up clever examples of combinging abilities to new effect so I have some examples to toy with for my own brain and the brain of my players?

Thanks,

Christopher

Hi Christopher,

I can relate. During our first testing-the-waters Sorcerer game, my friends and I were initially treating demon abilities as something in between D&D spells and the "spheres of magick" from White Wolf's Mage. (Those being the two games we had common "magic experience" in.) We found the approach unweildy and constraining.

What we're doing now is we just never consult the list of demon abilities until we've gone crazy talking about what wicked cool powers we want. Then the GM maps those powers out to the list of demon abilities. Assuming I've read you right, this might be the other way around from how you're doing it.

From recent actual character creation: Player X, whose character is a warrior (with a chip on shoulder) and whose demon is a scar that reads "Better Than You" (which he carved on his arm) tells me:

"Ok. The scar gives me big time combat nastiness. Makes me tough, strong, fast, and really deadly. When I fight the scar rips open from the exertion or I just cut it open again, then I put the blood that spurts out on my sword and that makes the blade cut deeper, cause more injuries, etc. Hey, I want to do that for arrows and such too. Oh, and I want something that gives me confidence so I can outshine my brother (big NPC), impress important folks, etc."

Then I go,

"Yeah. Ok. So maybe that's: Armor, Big, Fast, Lethal Special Damage: Dire Weaponry, Range Lethal Special Damage: Dire Weaponr, Boost: Will. A Power 7 demon, What ya think?"

Then he goes, "Wait. Can I also have other people dip their weapons in the blood? So their weapons can be like mine too?..." And I am, at this very moment, thinking to myself "Possessor, with Hop". I'm telling him about it later.

Just have the one-sheet on the table and go crazy about all the cool stuff you want without thinking about the abilities list at all, just on how it's all going to look and feel like, never mind how it's going to work just yet. After all that is the time when you take a look at the list. -- This is working very well for me.

Do you think a process like that might work for you as well? I hope it helps.

— W.

 

That's really smart.

Thanks,

Christopher

Don has excellent advice. Also: I can totally symphasize with you, I'm no great fan of the demon ability lists either. I could manage to live with them by forgetting their nature as a powers-list and dealing with them purely on a mechanical basis: they're just a list of possible mechanics to be used to represent particulars that come up in games. An example list at that, as I'm not averse to adding something if there really appears a lack of some kind. Really, the demon powers in Sorcerer are just like Secrets in The Shadow of Yesterday in that they're supposed to connect and emphasize certain aspects of the fiction by tying them into the mechanical structures of the game. So if TSOY is familiar, just deal with demon powers like they were TSOY Secrets, and all the problems disappear. What you're left with is actually a pretty elegant couple of rules: demons can do X different special things, where X is its Lore score. Each particular thing the demon can do is represented by a mechanic picked from the list, which is for systematic purposes considered the only effect the thing does. Then you just pretend that all that stuff about who uses the power and what-not is actually discussing the fiction.

Hi Euro,

Thanks, another tumbler just fell into place for me: the connection between the number of Abilities the Sorcerer trying to control the Demon. That's the part I wasn't thinking too much about. All those powers are cool as long as there's a problem for the Sorcerer. And the mechanics tie into that directly.

Does anyone else have examples of demons that are described as Color first, and then broken down into Abilities. I've realized I ALWAYS think of the list first, and the color never arrives. (Time to think differently.)

Thanks,

Christopher

Here's a thread where I was trying to build the Dagger of Time from Prince of Persia: The Sands of Time.

http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=12947.0

Hello Christopher,

Just to back everyone else, I agree that description first is key.  Also, don't forget the currency because there's a lot neat things you can do to account for extentions and limitations on powers just by playing with the currency.

One of my favorites from an older thread was the demon that could swallow people and carry them around in their belly.  That was Hold + Transport.  However, it was noted at the time that Transport is limited by the Demon's Stamina and was kind of a let down if you wanted it to carry around two or three people without also giving it a mondo Stamina score BUT check this out:

You have to apply Hold three times before you can imobilize an opponent entirely.  I like to think of those narratively as, The Tongue Lash, The Drag, and The Swallow.  Which creates a nice little roll over chain.  But what to with the victories left over from the final application of Hold?  How about tack them on to the demon's Stamina score for purposes of determining how much the demon can hold?

But wait there's more!

What happens when the demon finally DOES reach capacity?  How about it makes original Stamina vis augmented Stamina rolls and if it fails it takes Special Damage based on the victories of the augmented Stamina roll!

That's a lot of potential from two abilities plus some currency usage.

Jesse

I've been reading the early, early days of the Adept Press forum lately.  And the thing that stands out to me is how often Ron plays fast and loose with his own rules.  Which is to say--the way you're supposed to approach the listed demonic abilities is that, "Hey, here is one specific way to run with them, for the campaign listed in the book."  This means, play fast and loose with the duration, the way abilities work, and so on, as long as you're consistent and up front about it.  (This isn't 100% on point with what you mentioned, Christopher, but I always get real literal when reading the powers, and it took me a long time to break out of that habit.)

As an example: the ability Shadow deals with the light in a room or enclosed area.  You could, however, tweak it to create the ability Electromagnetic Pulse, where the demon causes electrical failures all around.  The point is, it's handled very much like Shadow. 

But you can only do that kind of tweaking once you've already got a concept in mind.

James_Nostack wrote:
As an example: the ability Shadow deals with the light in a room or enclosed area.  You could, however, tweak it to create the ability Electromagnetic Pulse, where the demon causes electrical failures all around.  The point is, it's handled very much like Shadow. 

Hi!  Actually, the word I originally used was "Blackout," rather than "EMP."  I just thought EMP sounded cooler.  What I was going for, basically, was a demon who, when it shows up, electrical things mysteriously stop working--just like when a demon with Shadow shows up, it suddenly becomes real dark.  The mechanics are pretty much identical.

Since the mechanics of Shadow (or Blackout) don't cause damage to robots as written, it might make sense to give  the demon Special Damage too, to represent that kind of thing if you think the players might want to fight robots.  And maybe Protection, representing insulation from electrical discharge, etc.  The notion is that each thing that's mechanically distinct, probably ought to be an ability.  But the mechanics described in the core book can be adjusted or customized in the game to suit whatever concept you've got.

I want to thank everyone for the input so far.

My brain finally made that final grokking after reading all the posts:

1) Describe all with color first
2) Find the Abilities to support the color -- as stated in the book. (For example, the Blackout above: Does the demon simply douse all electrical lights when he powers up, without damaging the lights so they'll turn back on when he leaves? Then it's Darkness. Does he short out the wiring? Then it's Special Damage, or some other Aibility that best provokes the RESULT you want your demon to have.)
3) Don't freak out The abilities are flexible and used to get the effect you want, not the other way around.
4) Keep in mind the power of Currency and Rolling Bonuses Over to construct greater effect.
5) How the powers work precisely isn't as important in the long run as 1) the fun and the color of the demon in action, and b) the impact the number of Abilities will have on the Sorcerer trying to interact with the Demon.

I'll work up some sample demons on my own (color first then abilties) and email them out to the players so they can get a handle on this before we meet for chargen.

Thanks all!

Christopher

And the really nice thing is that "balance" doesn't really matter.  Unlike Champions where you have to be rigorous so one player doesn't wind up getting an unfair advantage by tweaking the way the power works, in Sorcerer, the GM controls all the Demons...so tweak away.  There'll be plenty of opportunities for making player sorcerers really regret having summoned that demon with the unstoppable special damage attack later.

Hi Ralph,

And that's part of the fun -- the player gets the choice which ties into the narraitive elements. "Look, I've built the demon for you. It'll have a Power of 10. I mean, that's really high. Do you really want this?"

"Oh, yeah!"