Topic: From Idea to Sales. Where to go?
Started by: TracerFox
Started on: 9/7/2002
Board: Publishing
On 9/7/2002 at 3:26am, TracerFox wrote:
From Idea to Sales. Where to go?
Greetings all. Now while I know that this or similar topics have been posted over and over and over before, I am still posting this because my specific questions will primarily relate to my project alone, rather than overall research or information.
First off, I have an idea for a Role Playing Game.
Yes, very origonal, that. Half the people here probably fit into that previous statement. However, unlike many here, I really have only half an idea of what to do with my idea. I feel that the idea itself has the potential to make a good selling, if implemented right.
With this in mind, I have put together a list of questions I've been asking myself, and have found few answers for:
How do you go from having an idea for an RPG, to actually selling an RPG?
What are the different methods of publishing, and their pros/cons?
What are the expected costs in attempting each type of publishing? Are there any ways to avoid or minimize these costs?
What should I do with my idea?. Should I even *try* to publish, or just try and do a freebie-game for now (And hopefully publish later). Should I try and sell my idea to an existing company? Etc...
Should I try and do all the design and development work myself? Or should I try and hire/contract more experianced writers/authors/artists/etc if I think my own skills aren't fully up to the task of a published work, but I still feel my idea can be sold?
Yes, I know these may be some bad questions for someone wishing to publish a game to ask, but I want to try and get as much info as I can before I 'just dive in' and make some very bad mistakes with someone else's money.
Here is a general rundown of my situation:
As I said eralier, I have an idea/s for what quite a few have encouraged me could make a decently selling RPG, and I am willing to attempt this if it proves feasible.
I am however finding it both slow and difficult to design, develop, and document all the aspects of the RPG on my own.
I have obtained the assistance of another gaming writer who has offered and agreed to help with development and writing of the setting aspects of the RPG. He has asked for no up-front compensation at this time. Conversely, I am as yet unsure how much effort he is willing/planning to put into the project.
I have also obtained the interest and potential financial backing of a close friend of mine. He is willing to help finance any enterprise I enter into... Within reason.
I have no artistic skill whatsoever, nor do I have the software or experiance in using publishing tools to create a final product.
I am seriously considering publishing as electronic downloadable media, as I have been told this would require a slightly smaller initial investment.
I do not have a mechanics/system finalized for the RPG, as I am considering possibly licensing one of the currently existing free/limited-licence rpg systems. (Of current interest are MicroTactix' PlainLabel system, and JAGS)
Assuming I finally decide to design and develop an in-house system for the project, I feel I do not have enough experiance with different designs, or design theory to create a system that would live up to the idea's potential on my own.
As said earlier, I have potential financing in order to take hire outside talent, but do not know where I can, or rather *should* look for this. Nor do I know enough to begin contracting said talent without advice.
Finally, I have little business experiance myself, thought I have a tentative offer of assistance from my financer friend in this aspect of the enterprise.
Now, given all that information, and the previous questions, I am looking for any advice or feedback I can get on this project.
Am I wasting my time trying to prusue this as a business endevour? Or is the idea possible, and I'm just lacking experiance and knowledge?
Any help would be appreciated.
If you wish to discuss this with me personally, I can be reached at TraceFox@hotmail.com
On 9/7/2002 at 1:21pm, Marco wrote:
RE: From Idea to Sales. Where to go?
Hi,
I've sent you an email--but if anyone else is interested:
If you wish to use JAGS (Just Another Gaming System) as an engine, we'd be happy to help.
Depending on how you're planning to sell/distribute things we may be able to help: if the final product is free, we can host it on our site and might even be able to help with the artwork (at very least we can hook you up with artists we've worked for).
We can also help in customizing JAGS to the setting. We think it's very customizable and scalable--and we can certainly assist with integration to your world.
Let us know: jagsgame@yahoo.com
-Marco
http://jagsgame.dyndns.org
On 9/7/2002 at 5:25pm, Ron Edwards wrote:
RE: From Idea to Sales. Where to go?
Hi Tracerfox,
Well, that was quite a mouthful of questions - all good ones. But as I'm sure you can appreciate, very few of them can really be answered in the terms you asked. I'm referring to your use of "should." "Should"-ness doesn't really enter into the picture regarding many of these issues. The best we can do is lay out the broader options and then show you how some of the other options "cluster" around them.
As a start, check out some of these older threads.
Web publishing model
Guerilla publishing
How much is enough?
Web promotion
$1000 bucks, a system, and a vision
PDF publishing
I spent zero dollars (sort of) indie publishing
These are taken from the earlier sections of this forum. I strongly suggest glancing through all the pages of the forum as well, and looking up similar threads too.
Do they help address some of your questions? Bring back some thoughts on those to this thread, and we'll take it up some more.
Best,
Ron
Forge Reference Links:
Topic 95
Topic 59
Topic 521
Topic 607
Topic 872
Topic 1085
Topic 1990
On 9/7/2002 at 6:07pm, TracerFox wrote:
Email discussion
I need to point out that when I made my origonal post, I also duplicated this post here, one RPG.net, on the GPA's mailing list, and also on the RPG-Create Yahoo Group.
I've just had some interesting responses over on RPG-Create, so I decided to copy some of it over here in case anyone over here has some feedback to offer on it...
***
The way I see it, I have a few options for turning this idea into something I can show other people. I'll give a list here in order of humblest to most ambitious:
1. Finish the setting and release it for free, independant of any system.
This option is the least risky, and allows people to see my creation, and adapt it to whatever game system they might like to use.
2. Finish the setting and license an existing free system, and release the whole bundle also for free.
Like the above, this provides minimal risk. Unlike number one, this locks my creation into a particular system. Also I'll be limited to what the pre-existing system provides.
3. Finish the setting. Then set about to design an in-house system. Finally release the whole package for free.
Little risk...yada yada. Here's where things get tricky. If I tried to design the system by myself, I'd probably make a newbie's mistake and ruin the whole bit. Or I could look for a writer who'd be willing to help design the system for free...This I've come to realize is a very tall order...
4. Same as number 1, only release as a PDF for sale.
This option has the least risk of all the commercial options, but releasing a game setting independant of any system commercially seems to me like a bad idea. Of course, I could be wrong...
5. Write the setting as a PDF, and licensed to an existing commercial system. Sell my setting as a World Book for 'X' system.
Like number 2, this limits me in that the final game can only do what the system I finally license was designed to do. Some systems might allow me to write and publish rules addons or changes though.
6. Go the full commercial approach, with the setting and an in-house system.
The most ambitious so far. It would take much more money than the others, as likely the only way I'd be able to get the writers to be able to do this would be to hire them. Few people are going to be willing to work for free on a commercial project. Course, I could be wrong, there could be such writers lurking out there even now...<hint hint> :)
Well, those are the main options I'm considering at this time. All of them require me to first get the setting material finished, so that's what I'm putting most of my energy into. However it never hurts to look ahead and make plans...
Any thoughts?
***
On 9/7/2002 at 9:13pm, TracerFox wrote:
RE: From Idea to Sales. Where to go?
Ron Edwards wrote: Hi Tracerfox,
Well, that was quite a mouthful of questions - all good ones. But as I'm sure you can appreciate, very few of them can really be answered in the terms you asked. I'm referring to your use of "should." "Should"-ness doesn't really enter into the picture regarding many of these issues. The best we can do is lay out the broader options and then show you how some of the other options "cluster" around them.
As a start, check out some of these older threads.
Web publishing model
Guerilla publishing
How much is enough?
Web promotion
$1000 bucks, a system, and a vision
PDF publishing
I spent zero dollars (sort of) indie publishing
These are taken from the earlier sections of this forum. I strongly suggest glancing through all the pages of the forum as well, and looking up similar threads too.
Do they help address some of your questions? Bring back some thoughts on those to this thread, and we'll take it up some more.
Best,
Ron
Wow! Just...Wow!
Ron, I can't thank you enough for those links. I read through each and every one of those threads, soaking up all the info I could from them.
What did I come away with you ask? I'll tell you...
One theme which was pounded into my head over and over by reading those threads is that I shouldn't be making any kind of decisions about business, publishing, etc (Some seemed to say I shouldn't even be *thinking* bout these things) until I first have a finished, *playtested* game to try and sell!
To a certain extent, I have to agreee.
One of those threads led me to an article on RPG.net 'The $1000 Company' which was something that simply floored me. I now have something of an idea of *how* I can go about selling my game (once it's done of course) on a very small budget.
The only complaint I have is that among all those threads and articles, there was very little practical advice or information for someone trying to start a Vanity Press company who's sole *initial* distrobution would be electronic downloadable PDF files.
The 1k Company article was great, but it seemed to imply that printing your game was the only plausible and feasible way to sell a game. I tend to disagree.
No matter though, I'm sure that I can find enough help here to addmend and alter that 1K Company plan to work with PDFs in mind. After all, if you plan on printing no books initially, you have less overhead. Not to say you don't have any production overhead, jsut that it's gonna be different and likely less than printing, even print-on-demand like in that article.
Okay, now that the accolades and thanks are over, on to the real meat of this reply.
I now have some of the information and tools I was looking for in my origonal post. Now on to the practical matters of *getting my game finished*!
As I've said in other replies, I could probably finish most if not all of the writing by myself, but due to a host of mental disorders I won't bother to repeat here, doing so would likely double production time, if not more.
That said, I will continue to work on this myself, all the while *trying* to find people to get interested enough to assist me. Preferably on a budget (Read: Free).
I can have some finances to pay really talented writers/artists/etc, but I would prefer to get people on board who are interested in the project, seeing it succeed, and willing to take exposure as their main compensation.
With this in mind, can you or anyone else reading this recommend any places or persons to look around in order to find such talent?
I am most needy in the areas of concept development (Taking the project from scattered notes and ideas in my head to finished material) and also system development.
As allways, any help is appreciated!
Later!
Forge Reference Links:
Topic 95
Topic 59
Topic 521
Topic 607
Topic 872
Topic 1085
Topic 1990
On 9/8/2002 at 3:06am, wyrdlyng wrote:
RE: From Idea to Sales. Where to go?
Welcome and do not despair.
Firstly, go look in the Independent RPGs Forum. A good number of those are PDF only releases. Anvilwerks, Momento Mori, even Adept Press originally are/were PDF only companies. Look around, read, listen and you'll find the answer to your questions.
Secondly...
If I tried to design the system by myself, I'd probably make a newbie's mistake and ruin the whole bit.
You're not disarming a bomb. Relax, it's just a game. There is no screwing up in game design. If you create something that people enjoy playing then you've "succeeded" in your effort.
How can you tell if people enjoy it or not? Playtest it. Playtest the hell out of it. Get other people to playtest it. Take all the feedback and adjust as necessary.
Final bit of advice is to remember that not everyone will like what you create. You CANNOT please all of the gamers all of the time. It will NEVER happen. Do not set that up as a design goal or you will set yourself up for self-determined failure. Create something that you would like to play in/with and then make it accessible for others. Some will not like but some will. That's just the way of things.
And since creating a "hit" game which nets in hojillions of dollars is not how you seek to support yourself remember that you literally have nothing to lose but time.
On 9/8/2002 at 4:50pm, Ron Edwards wrote:
RE: From Idea to Sales. Where to go?
Hi TracerFox,
I'm glad you found the threads useful! Remember, there are many more throughout the forums, so go a-hunting, or ask specific questions, to find more. The more focused your questions, the easier it is to point you to earlier discussions.
You wrote,
"... there was very little practical advice or information for someone trying to start a Vanity Press company who's sole *initial* distrobution would be electronic downloadable PDF files."
That's odd - I have a slightly different perception of those threads - but no matter. I suggest looking into some of the Dead Meat threads in the Publishing forum here, as well another look at Nathan Hill's Eldritch Ass Kicking. I also suggest visiting both Anvilwerks and Memento Mori as sterling examples of this way to publish. All of the people involved (respectively Sean Wipfli, Nathan Hill, Clinton R. Nixon, and Jared Sorensen) will be happy to answer any questions, I'm sure.
Here's one last thing to consider, based on your last post. There is no deadline. Your concern about finding others to help you write and so on seems based mainly on a need to get the game written more quickly - and I see no earthly reason why this need would be pressing.
As you're probably seen, the Connections forum here at the Forge is built for people who are looking for collaborative efforts on their games. However, I also find this phrase a little alarming:
"I am most needy in the areas of concept development (Taking the project from scattered notes and ideas in my head to finished material) and also system development."
Unless I'm misreading you, these needs are very general and suggest that you don't have a playable game, in written form. After all, "concept" and "system" are the game. Furthermore, no one will be able to take the project from notes/ideas to finished material except you - that's just not possible.
If I'm right, then maybe your best bet is to sit down and summarize, in written form, what you do have, and then present it for consideration in Indie Design Forum. Perhaps the Publishing forum and its issues are not really what will help you the most right now.
Best,
Ron
On 9/9/2002 at 4:22pm, TracerFox wrote:
RE: From Idea to Sales. Where to go?
Ron Edwards wrote: Hi TracerFox,
You wrote,
"... there was very little practical advice or information for someone trying to start a Vanity Press company who's sole *initial* distrobution would be electronic downloadable PDF files."
That's odd - I have a slightly different perception of those threads - but no matter. I suggest looking into some of the Dead Meat threads in the Publishing forum here, as well another look at Nathan Hill's Eldritch Ass Kicking. I also suggest visiting both Anvilwerks and Memento Mori as sterling examples of this way to publish. All of the people involved (respectively Sean Wipfli, Nathan Hill, Clinton R. Nixon, and Jared Sorensen) will be happy to answer any questions, I'm sure.
I was actually referring to the information presented in the 'The 1K Company' article over on RPG.net. It was wonderful information for those wishing to set up a Vanity Press company with very little starting capital.
However, the article seemed to focus solely on those who intended to print-publish right off the bat. No mention was made of e-publishing.
I actually am in contact with several 'successful' games e-publishers (MicroTactix and Memento-Mori mainly) and have gotten some wonderful feedback from them so far.
Here's one last thing to consider, based on your last post. There is no deadline. Your concern about finding others to help you write and so on seems based mainly on a need to get the game written more quickly - and I see no earthly reason why this need would be pressing.
Well that desire is mostly borne from two things:
1. A natural impatience in me. Something I'm working on, but still rears it's little head now and again.
2. The fact that I've been working on this project in one format or another for over five years, coupled with the desire to see it to completion.
Admittedly there's no real reason I *have* to hurry and get it done. But still I wouldn't mind if it *did* get finished sooner rather than later. Hehe.
As you're probably seen, the Connections forum here at the Forge is built for people who are looking for collaborative efforts on their games. However, I also find this phrase a little alarming:
"I am most needy in the areas of concept development (Taking the project from scattered notes and ideas in my head to finished material) and also system development."
Unless I'm misreading you, these needs are very general and suggest that you don't have a playable game, in written form. After all, "concept" and "system" are the game. Furthermore, no one will be able to take the project from notes/ideas to finished material except you - that's just not possible.
If I'm right, then maybe your best bet is to sit down and summarize, in written form, what you do have, and then present it for consideration in Indie Design Forum. Perhaps the Publishing forum and its issues are not really what will help you the most right now.
Well, you're certainly not misreading the words, but in part my intent and context seems to have been lost.
At the present time, no, I do not have a playable game in written form. Shattered Prism exists right now only as scattered and half-finished notes about random pieces I've been able to jot down over the past year. The rest is still up in my head.
As for my desire for help, I'm not looking for someone to do the work for me, but more for someone to, for lack of better words, 'keep me on track' as the project develops.
At present I am diagnosed with several mental disorders (Mainly ADD, Bi-Polar, Chemical Depression) which have had a negative impact on my being able to take my ideas down to paper/keyboard. I find myself most often writing in circles and getting sidetracked by useless thoughts or envisioning.
What I am looking for is someone whom I can get interested in the project and the ideas, who can work with me to prod my brain into giving up it's little secrets. :) Or failing that, a full collaborative writer who can expand or refine my own ideas should they prove a little mediocre or lackluster.
Tall orders perhaps, but it never hurts to ask eh?
I'm planning on moving the development aspects of my queries and discussion over to the appropriate forums BTW.