Ygg - a quick system overview

(* indicate rules which is currently under much consideration whether they fit or not)

Components

Stats
Classes
Class abilities
Skills
Un-skills
Moves*
Magical Spells & Stuff
Demonic Taint
Level
Weird
XP

Stats

Stats for characters run from 4-7 for humans. Mostly. However 4, is average for normal untrained humans. 3 is slightly below average. 7 is considered extremely well trained. Stats can be increased up to 8.

Stats are considered "average skill performance", so usually stats are used instead of skill ratings.

Classes

Classes represent profession packages as well as background for the character. It includes abilities and skills which are associated with the profession.

Class Abilities

These vary from skills "pyroalchemy" to abilities "shapeshifting ability" to psychological traits "Strong Sense of Honor" all these abilities are increasing together with the class, and are considered to be on the level of expertise the level indicates.

Skills

Aside from the class abilities, character may learn any number of additional skills. Usually no skill is needed to attempt an action. It is assumed the character is reasonably trained in most areas associated with his class. The relevant stat is instead consulted and assumed to indicate the general level of ability. However, the skills may be learned for two reasons: to represent exceptional skill at a specific action or to allow for performing the skill at all. In the former case the skill once learned is used instead of the stat.

For example, a character with stat 5 in movement may train in long jump. The trained skill will start at 6. This can be again trained to increase.

Untrained skills which has no basic stat start at 1.

Un-skills

A player may declare his character unskilled in a action which usually would be covered by a stat roll. For example one character might not be able to swim. That character would write down his lack of skill at swimming.

Moves*

As the character increase in levels they are allowed to create signature attacks and moves. Although usually they are special kind of attacks, they can be pretty much any combination of actions.

Moves are constructed out of keywords, here's a short list as an example:

reflection
spark
spiral
soul
cannon
storm
winter
triple
flash
violent
ghost
shadow

Starting with a single keyword and a basic description of the move, or two keywords, they form the first special move.

For example: "Flash Palm" for an unarmed palm strike move.

This has non-martial implementations too. For example, a riding maneuvre can be called "Storm Switchback" or whatever.

A 2-word special move costs needs a combat success margin of 2 or equals a 1 point advantage in case of a skill test (these terms will be more obvious later)

Every level a player can either add a keyword, creating an even more advanced move, or start creating a new one.

Every additional keyword means a single extra effect and a cost of 2 points of margin to perform.

Magical Spells & Stuff

Demonic magic is roughly divided into Spells & Summonings and Powers.

Powers are abilities the character has and can use immediately without any "calling" on extra powers. They are all fueled by demonic power, just like the spells and the summonings, but the difference is that these are not external things, but skills the character has learned. There are a number of Powers to choose from, they are paid for in form of permanent taint. Powers can be learned to more advanced forms. The expression of the Powers are usually more or less personal.

Spells & Summonings on the other hand are magic only paid for when used. Spells range from wards to magical incantations and similar. Some are ritual in use. However, all spell effects are identical no matter who use them, there is no personal differences in their effect. The spells are easy to learn compared to powers, but are fewer. Ever non-magicians can learn some of the basic wards and incantations.
Summonings are also ritualistic using the names of the demons to be summoned. A character usually only know a few types of demons to summon. Both summoning and spells can be considered to be pretty mechanical.

Demonic Taint

Demonic Taint is what magicians pay for using demonic magic. The more magic a sorcerer uses and the more Powers he/she has, the more corrupted.

Corruption will manifest itself in permanent demonic disfigurations and other effects. The onset of corruption can be delayed by using ritual scarring and tattoing of sealing runes, as well as magical iron masks, bracers and other items fused with the flesh of the mage. The sorcerer may also ritually amputate parts of his/her body to reduce the accumulation of demonic taint in the body.

A fully corrupted sorcerer will in effect be a demonic being, unfortunately without any of its former magical powers.

Level

The level works as a counter. You level up, you get some points to increase stats and combat abilities with, you get to make a new move, you might raise the maximum of your Weird and you get a bunch of Riskbreakers*.

That and all your class abilities are supposed to be at a higher level as well.

Weird

Weird is what Ygg calls the Fatepoints. With Weird you can succeed a 50-50 roll even after it failed (but you can't succeed if there was no roll to begin with), you can avoid taking damage in a round (you just get battered up and bruised) and so on. Basically, anything you had a chance of avoiding or succeeding with a HELL OF A LUCK you can avoid/succeed by paying 1 Weird after it happened.

Your Weird is fully replenished when your adventure is over.

XP

Yes, have level, have XP. XP is awarded for succeeding with the scenario, for doing dramatic and interesting things, for succeeding against the odds, for sacrificing or potentially sacrificing oneself, for quick thinking and for overcoming difficulties (which includeds winning battles).

... second part coming later.

Pale Fire wrote:
Weird

Weird is what Ygg calls the Fatepoints. With Weird you can succeed a 50-50 roll even after it failed (but you can't succeed if there was no roll to begin with), you can avoid taking damage in a round (you just get battered up and bruised) and so on. Basically, anything you had a chance of avoiding or succeeding with a HELL OF A LUCK you can avoid/succeed by paying 1 Weird after it happened.

Your Weird is fully replenished when your adventure is over.

Andrew Martin wrote:
Would Wyrd be a better choice?

Pale Fire wrote:

Andrew Martin wrote:
Would Wyrd be a better choice?

Are you talking about the RPG by Scott Knipe or just the alternate spelling of Weird? I was thinking of Wyrd too, I have yet to decide what to go with.

On another note: the way class abilities works are rather vague at the moment. It's been discussed here on the forge but I'm still not totally satisfied with the way it works. I think I have decent feeling of what I want though so I'm just looking around now for a solid implementation of that.

Stats

Defining the stats as average skill performance rather than as innate physical/mental characteristics is a subtle but important and I believe useful distinction here. This should work out rather well in the context of the rest of the system.

If the cost to increase stats is anywhere near comparable to the cost to increase individual skills, expect to see lots of maxed-out stats at higher levels. Especially since it doesn’t take many points to max out a stat.

You could allow for more individuality by letting players define areas of relatively better or worse performance in the range covered by the stat. For example, I perform pretty well on intelligence-based tasks, but if you look closer you’ll see that I prefer to solve problems in a deliberate (read: slow) manner. So I could specify that performance from my intelligence stat is +1 when I have plenty of time, -1 when under severe time pressure. Someone else might be +1 for language tasks and –1 for mathematical ones, or +1 for intuitive insight but –1 for linear logical deduction.

You've mentioned elsehwere that you want the stats to be rolled, rather than e.g. have points allocated at char gen. Don't players usually nullify random stat rolling, via house rules or massive fudging, so they can play characters with a stat distribution that fits their character concept?

Classes and Class Abilities

Do I infer correctly, then, that class abilities have no relation to stats in their acquisition, advancement, and use? That should work out just fine. (Since stats are average skill performance, class skills are simply exceptions that aren’t part of that average.) You should use this fact as a key guideline in deciding which abilities gamewide should be class skills. For example, it would look a little strange if Lifting Large Rocks were to appear as a class skill and therefore had no connection to any strength stat. But you could make a pretty good case for Archery Marksmanship being a matter of long (largely mental) training and endurance conditioning of specific muscles, and therefore having no connection to any overall strength or agility stat, which makes it a good candidate for a class (profession) ability.

Do you plan to have stat minima or maxima for class? (Not recommending that, I’m just curious.)

Skills

If my movement stat is 5, and I train in long jump, is my trained skill 6 or is it [movement + 1]? In other words, if I later increase my movement stat to 6, does my long jump skill increment to 7, or does it stay at 6 (causing me to effectively lose the benefit of the long jump training)? What happens if the stat decreases (due to magic, perhaps)?

The skills that don’t relate to a stat sound very expensive because they must be bought all the way up from zero. What sort of skills do you see falling into that category? (Perhaps, class skills from other classes?)

Un-skills

Besides un-skills indicating a total lack, you could also allow for partial un-skills that are either at a fixed value below the normal stat value (e.g. my movement stat is 5 but my long jump ability is fixed at 2), or at a specific minus relative to the stat value (my long jump skill is [movement – 3], so it’s 2 now but it will increase if my movement stat does).

Moves

Are specific keywords associated with specific effects throughout the system? Or does a player decide which effects go with each keyword when creating the move?

If I have a move that I’ve advanced, can I still use the earlier versions of the move if I don’t roll a high enough margin to use the full-blown advanced move? I think if I’ve learned Flash Palm, I should still be able to use if even if I’ve also developed the ability to do Summer Lightning Flash Palm.

A variation of that would allow me to use any subset of the keywords and effects in a move, so margin permitting I could use Summer Lightning or Summer Flash or Summer Lightning Palm with whatever combinations of effects those keywords imply. This would make advanced moves much more flexible, as each advanced move would actually represent a whole set of possible subset moves. (You would probably need to cap the total number of words/effects in a move, if you did this, or else it might become too powerful.)

Magic Spells

Do powers accumulate taint when used, or only when acquired? If there’s no taint increment from using them, then powers sound like they have a big advantage over spells and summonings, even if the initial taint for acquiring them is high. The amount of taint is under the player’s control and can be kept constant by not acquiring new powers. By contrast, it sounds like everyone using spells or summonings on a regular basis is doomed sooner or later.

Demonic Taint

In order to avoid all powerful spellcasters in Ygg looking the same (tattooed guy with iron masks and bracers, nicknamed "stumpy"), let me suggest some other possible (and potentially interesting for plots) ways of controlling or delaying corruption.

Daily Rituals: Corruption can be staved off by performing (nonmagical) daily rituals. This can only delay, not dissipate, the effects of taint. Taint gradually returns each day the rituals are not performed. The more taint is being staved off this way, the longer and more complex the rituals become, and the faster the corruption occurs if the ritual is not performed. One might encounter formerly powerful wizards who still retain all their powers, but must now spend all their time in rituals or else quickly become fully corrupted.

Shielded Locations: Remaining in certain types of dwellings (e.g. an iron keep, or surrounded by flowing water, or in a house suspended above the ground) will stave off taint. As with daily rituals, the taint is only temporarily fended off and will return if the sorcerer leaves the special location. One might encounter powerful sorcerers who cannot leave their abodes for very long, or not at all. If such a sorcerer dies the taint may linger in and around the place.

Power tokens: Some magical items may be able to shield against, or absorb, taint. These can only be created by non-demonic forms of magic, and of course would be highly coveted by spellcasters. One type holds off a certain amount of taint while worn; if lost, the corruption returns. (Galadriel’s Phial is perhaps one of these.) Another type might absorb a certain amount of taint, after which it becomes a cursed item that has to be gotten rid of, perhaps with some difficulty. (BTW, all those severed corruption-saturated sorcerer limbs could have interesting qualities as well.)

Strict Code: Corruption is reduced by committing to live by moral strictures – the more stringent, the more taint is reduced. Corruption returns instantly if the strictures are broken.

Confronting and Defeating Demons: Easier said than done, especially since using the demons’ own power against them won’t help. Success might also result in a loss of magical abilities.

Level

You mention "points to increase stats and combat abilities with." Class abilities increase with the class itself. But what about non-class trained skills and non-stat-based skills? Can these only be increased with riskbreakers? (That would be fine with me, but earlier you mentioned "additional training" for such skills which implies that points can be spent on them at level up.)

When doling out "a bunch of" riskbreakers, keep in mind that if used optimally (not spending any extra to stack the odds), without exceptionally bad luck, each riskbreaker given out will eventually result in a skill increase.

Weird

What if you use a weird point and a riskbreaker at the same time? Does this automatically result in a success and a skill increase? Perhaps you should phrase the rules to make it clear that in such a case, the weird point guarantees success but the skill increase happens only if the actual roll is a "natural" success.

Can you use a weird point on an Inspiration roll to guarantee 3 skill levels or 6 points of combat margin? I guess, no good reason why not.

Riskbreakers Again

You sort of imply that riskbreakers are used in situations with an element of risk. Your example is jumping over a chasm. But what if I just want to jump over a puddle so my boots don’t get wet? Can I use a riskbreaker? If not, what is the minimum amount of acceptable risk? Jumping over a three foot deep pit? (Could twist an ankle, after all.) How about a six foot deep pit? How about if it’s full of rattlesnakes? How about (harmless) garter snakes? How about if I really really hate harmless garter snakes?

Situations in which a failed skill check risks immediate severe consequences are not really all that common. Therefore, unless you go ahead and allow riskbreakers for any skill attempt however trivial, you’re requiring a lot of judgment calls about how much risk or importance the action must have to be worthy of a riskbreaker use.

The solution, I believe, is to reunite the riskbreaker mechanism with the Inspiration mechanism (at least insofar as skills usage). There should be an Inspiration involved in every use of a riskbreaker. "At risk of immediate death" as a near universally applicable Inspiration would cover the jump-the-chasm situations, but other Inspirations would apply to other situations. If I’ve somehow established that my character is highly passionate about keeping his boots dry, then maybe I can even use inspiration/riskbreaker when jumping the puddle. But otherwise, no.

Overall

Weird, Inspiration, and Riskbreakers seem to be crowding each other’s turf a bit.

These two Ygg summary posts are a milestone. I’m seeing a lot of previous discussion coming together and getting a clearer picture of the system.

It occurs to me that player characters have a lot of ways to keep themselves alive in this system – assuming that Wyrd points and Inspirations can apply to the defense stat. It seems pretty easy to justify a "close to death" or "intense rage or hatred" Inspiration whenever you’re losing in lethal combat.

There are lots of ways the Ygg mechanics allow for effective illusionism -- if you already know how to be an illustionist GM. By the same token, it could lead to some frustration in non-illusionist play (such as the "pinball sim" style encouraged by many modules). For example, if a GM by chance or by design puts in lots of obstacles with challenge levels one point higher than the best applicable player-character’s skill, thePCs will just use up their wyrd and riskbreaker points and then get stuck. If the challenges are all one point lower, no drama and no chance to advance with riskbreakers. If I were writing modules for this system, I wouldn’t even bother to put in numbers for challenges of obstacles or enemy stats. Instead, they would be filled in with things like "the challenge for jumping this chasm is the best PC long jumping skill + 1" or "the combat skill of this guard is one less than the best PC combat skill." And I’d try, somehow, to explain to GMs concepts like using negative feedback to know when to adjust the challenge levels higher or lower on the fly. (Maybe even illustionist monster listings, that give all creature stats relative to the player-characters’ mean, min, or max stats, with specifically prescribed adjustments for how challenging an encounter you want to create.)

I could also see a completely different kind of play emphasizing sim exploration of character, with little or no illusionism, in which the challenge bar is set high everywhere and Inspirations (which are very powerful ) dominate and drive the play. This too requires certain GM mind-sets to be effective that may not be apparent to GMs who think they’re just playing a simple hack-fest.

The upside: a system with such surreptitious use of modern elements that old school players won’t be scared off, making some of the benefits of those elements accessible to them.

The downside: if its old school trappings fool GMs into running it like D&D (gamist or pinball-sim), it won’t look any better than D&D. Cluing in the GMs becomes key.

- Walt

[edited to insert the paragraph about rolling initial stats, which I forgot to include when retyping the post for the third time, after one crash and one clear-key accident]

wfreitag wrote: Stats
If the cost to increase stats is anywhere near comparable to the cost to increase individual skills, expect to see lots of maxed-out stats at higher levels. Especially since it doesn’t take many points to max out a stat.

Thanks Walt for taking the time. I'll try to clear some things up.

wfreitag wrote: If the cost to increase stats is anywhere near comparable to the cost to increase individual skills, expect to see lots of maxed-out stats at higher levels. Especially since it doesn’t take many points to max out a stat.

You've mentioned elsehwere that you want the stats to be rolled, rather than e.g. have points allocated at char gen. Don't players usually nullify random stat rolling, via house rules or massive fudging, so they can play characters with a stat distribution that fits their character concept?

You should use this fact as a key guideline in deciding which abilities gamewide should be class skills.

Do you plan to have stat minima or maxima for class? (Not recommending that, I'm just curious.)

If my movement stat is 5, and I train in long jump, is my trained skill 6 or is it [movement + 1]? In other words, if I later increase my movement stat to 6, does my long jump skill increment to 7, or does it stay at 6 (causing me to effectively lose the benefit of the long jump training)? What happens if the stat decreases (due to magic, perhaps)?

The skills that don’t relate to a stat sound very expensive because they must be bought all the way up from zero. What sort of skills do you see falling into that category? (Perhaps, class skills from other classes?)

Are specific keywords associated with specific effects throughout the system? Or does a player decide which effects go with each keyword when creating the move?

If I have a move that I’ve advanced, can I still use the earlier versions of the move if I don’t roll a high enough margin to use the full-blown advanced move?

A variation of that would allow me to use any subset of the keywords and effects in a move, so margin permitting I could use Summer Lightning or Summer Flash or Summer Lightning Palm with whatever combinations of effects those keywords imply.

Do powers accumulate taint when used, or only when acquired?

In order to avoid all powerful spellcasters in Ygg looking the same (tattooed guy with iron masks and bracers, nicknamed "stumpy"), let me suggest some other possible (and potentially interesting for plots) ways of controlling or delaying corruption.

You mention "points to increase stats and combat abilities with." Class abilities increase with the class itself. But what about non-class trained skills and non-stat-based skills? Can these only be increased with riskbreakers?

When doling out "a bunch of" riskbreakers, keep in mind that if used optimally (not spending any extra to stack the odds), without exceptionally bad luck, each riskbreaker given out will eventually result in a skill increase.

Perhaps you should phrase the rules to make it clear that in such a case, the weird point guarantees success but the skill increase happens only if the actual roll is a "natural" success.

Can you use a weird point on an Inspiration roll to guarantee 3 skill levels or 6 points of combat margin? I guess, no good reason why not.

You sort of imply that riskbreakers are used in situations with an element of risk. Your example is jumping over a chasm. But what if I just want to jump over a puddle so my boots don’t get wet?

For example, if a GM by chance or by design puts in lots of obstacles with challenge levels one point higher than the best applicable player-character’s skill, thePCs will just use up their wyrd and riskbreaker points and then get stuck. If the challenges are all one point lower, no drama and no chance to advance with riskbreakers.