Hi I'm trying to get my RPG publish, it's called Revolution and the game takes place in a AH 18th century America. The year is 1789 and the American Revolution is still going strong, both sides are fighting tooth and nail.

I've tried to get Pinnacle and AEG to publish it, since it's very simliar to Deadlands RPG in it's layout.

First of all, I have to ask; Is Revolution straight historical or is it alternate historical?

The reason I ask is because you'll have an easier time getting a publisher to pick up an alternate history game. This fact doesn't sit well with me (as I love straight historical games too), but this seems to be the case. This has been attributed to the notion that most gamers want "kewl powerz and big gunz" ... and true historical games lack these elements.

That said, it's still a bit tricky to get any company to publish a game that they didn't create themselves. After all, most game companies have more game ideas floating around than funds to publish them as games. So, the likelihood of convincing them to publish yours is a bit slim. Not impossible, mind you, but slim.

For what it's worth, I adore the idea of a game set in the Revolutionary War. It's unexplored, virgin gaming territory, which always strikes a positive chord with me.

Hi there,

And welcome to the Forge. I'm going to suggest backing up a step and examining just what your goals are - why, for instance, are you trying to "get" a publisher of another RPG to publish yours?

The logic is pretty simple: if they have a property that they have already developed and marketed (and believe me, Pinnacle has sunk more money into Deadlands than you or I can even conceive of), why would they be interested in another? It doesn't matter how "good" the new property is, because their investments and time and energy for the old one are weighing so heavily in favor of concentrating solely on it.

Most new titles put out by a game company are conceived in-house. They may well hire freelancers to write and develop it, but they are not generally interested in ideas or finished games submitted by outsiders. Most game companies respond to such inquiries (whether it's a two-page treatment or an 800-page finished game) with a friendly statement of interest that they will never follow up on.

In other words, freelance work for companies (which is what you see mainly producing RPGs out there) does not include designing games from the ground up on your own. Companies like White Wolf, AEG, and Pinnacle have literally no use for someone who shows up and says "I've designed a great game! Wanna publish it?" Companies like Atlas and Hogshead do publish full-designed games, but they tend to stick with people who've already established themselves in the business as freelancers.

So my question is, what are your goals? For instance, will you happy if people simply see your game, and some of them play it? Or are you only going to be satisfied to see it in hardcover on the game-store shelf? Or something in between?

Writing an RPG is a pretty common activity. Many, many role-players do it, and many of them are content simply to have the game played by themselves and a few friends. Others really want to "get it published," but their perceptions of how to get involved in publishing (based on observing White Wolf, Pinnacle, etc) are not really well developed, and so they spend a lot of time submitting ideas and feeling alternately enthused, when they receive a nice cover/response letter, and feeling burned, when nothing ever comes of it.

Still others are willing to go freelance or into self-publishing, and it's the latter which the Forge is all about. If you want to learn more about this, then we have a lot of resources here to help you. But it's not about what the "right" thing to do is - it's really a matter of your own goals.

Best,
Ron

Cynthia Celeste Miller wrote: Is Revolution straight historical or is it alternate historical?

Heh. I never heard of that abbreviation. Besides, I had just woke up when I posted that. That's my excuse and I'm sticking to it. ;0)

I believe that excuse will stick, Cynthia. Besides, if you hadn't've asked I probably would never've noticed. (contractions are fun)

Keeper, I suggest you consider what Ron has said very carefully. Also, check out the Articles section here on the Forge. Several articles there will be very helpful depending on what your goal happens to be (some may even help you figure out what your goal is)

Well one of my goals with this RPG is to get on the self published, Also to get people to play it.


But first I've ro write the RPG, and the world.

Whoa, I'm confused.

"... one of my goals is to get on the self published ..."

I'm assuming that you mistyped "shelf," correct? If so, then I suggest caution.

Are you really interested in the game being on the shelf ... for one month, and then never again? Quite a few RPG authors currently have over 2000 copies of their game in their mom's basements, and they got to see their game on the game store shelf - briefly. Now they have a ton of worthless paper and debts in the $10,000-and-above range. Does that seem like enough to you? Would being "on the shelf" for that period be worth it?

It might be - I'm not going to judge anyone's goals. However, I want to lay out the consequences of having that one ambition be primary, because the grim outcome I've described is very, very common when "getting on the shelf" takes precedence over other goals.

Here are some older threads that you might find useful; make sure to follow up on the threads that are linked within them as well.

What to expect
questions
From idea to sales. Where to go?

Many of my comments to Tracerfox seem like they could be 'ported to you in full.

I invite you to spend some time reading threads in Indie Game Design as well; perhaps that's the forum that will be the most helpful at this point.

Best,
Ron

Ron Edwards wrote: It might be - I'm not going to judge anyone's goals.

Not sure what you're asking Eogan?

Are you asking how prevelent this sort of thinking is in general given how many hobbiests there are out their who all have a home brew system they dream of getting published?

Or are you asking whether or not we practice what we preach here at the Forge, and if designers who are regulars here are asked the same sort of questions?

If the former, the answer would be "not very" and is one of the reasons why the Forge exists to begin with. Helping a designer to move a game from Kewl Home Brew, to published Indie design is a big part of what we do here.

If the latter, than yes, absolutely. In the Inde-Design forum you'll find alot of hashing out of system ideas, with varying degrees of potential and varying degrees of designer determination. Some are very serious designs moving towards publication. Some are from very devoted designers who find themselves thrashing about a bit and looking for some direction, some are presented as interesting thought experiments with no intention to develop them further, and some are just presented as a lark. But here in the publishing forum the issues surrounding Indie-publishing are taken very seriously.

Selling your work to an "established game publisher", is not a "bad thing" per se. But it is a very very different thing from what most would be designers envision. There are a lot of hidden costs (in terms of what you are giving up) that don't automatically come with off setting advantages. Most people who want to try and "sell their design to a publisher" really have no idea what that means and no idea what they're giving up and no idea what they aren't going to get. There is also a typical assumption that such a "publisher" is necessary...that you can't simply publish the game yourself.

Those issues are core to the Forge philosophy. If you're going to go through a major publisher, it had better be with both eyes open knowing full well what you're giving up and full well what that publisher isn't obligated to do. Further, indie-publishing has never been more possible and more effective than it is right now. Just check out the forums for some indie-published successes both commercial and non commercial.

Dust Devils, Inspectres, Octane, Donjon, Sorcerer, Kayfabe, Paladin, Eldritch Ass Kicking, Riddle of Steel, Little Fears, Cartoon Action Hour, Universalis (apologies if I missed any) are all games published by their creators in formats ranging from PDF to traditional hard cover that are all being commercially sold and played.

Valamir wrote: Not sure what you're asking Eogan?

Valamir wrote: If the former, the answer would be "not very" and is one of the reasons why the Forge exists to begin with. Helping a designer to move a game from Kewl Home Brew, to published Indie design is a big part of what we do here.

what I mean by getting on the shelf is that a major RPG maker has published by RPG, and there in there warehouse for sale to retailers and stores.

Hi VK,

Thanks for clarifying, and that's what I figured you were saying. In that case, I can only repeat my questions and recommendations in my previous posts, especially the first one.

What are your thoughts and reactions to my first post on this thread?

Have you checked out any of the threads that I indicated? What are your thoughts on them?

Best,
Ron

Hi VK,

I would also like to add a link to my Personal Experience With Golden Pillar Publishing.

Might not be the route for you, but it is another viable option.
In any case, good luck!

Pete

I've seen Golden Pilliar ads and web page, but can they do Deadland style RPG books?.

What exactly do you mean by "Deadlands style"?

As far as I can tell, they can do your game in any style you want, even d20. Mark worked pretty closely with us incorporating the design elements we wanted to include and he filled in the blanks for things we weren't sure of. We were asked to approve the layout at several different stages and made changes to things we didn't like so creative control was still largely in our hands (for whatever that was worth).
But yeah, like Adam said, what exactly do you mean by Deadlands style?

Pete

I mean have you ever pick up a Deadlands RPG book, I want my RPG to be printed like Pinnacle's RPG.

The same size, as books in that series.

Size how? Page count? Dimensions? The only Deadlands books I have here are standard 8.5x11 books.

If you go to http://www.goldenpillarpublishing.com/ and look at the various packages [Bronze, Silver, Gold, near the top of the navigation bar on the left] and scroll down to Printing you'll see the dimensions that GPP offers [they vary between plans, so be sure to check them all.]

Vault, I hate to come off sounding rude...but do you actually have an idea of what you REALLY want?

The only thing we know about your game is you want to see it in game stores on the shelf looking like a Deadland's book.

I have to say...that's a HORRIBLE place to start your planning from. What options have you looked into? Is the game finished? Has it been extensively playtested? Do you already have the art lined up? Has it been laid out?

What is it in your head that thinks being on the shelf in a local game store, in full printed glory is a "good thing"? As Ron has already pointed out, what this often means is your game gets relegated to the dusty discount rack in a couple of months and you're out $10,000+

What is you motivation for wanting to sell your game to a publisher? Are you aware, that even if a publisher bought it from you, they have no obligation to actually print it? Your game could spend the rest of eternity in the bottom of someone's filing cabnet never to be seen from again, and you could do NOTHING with it, because you'd have sold the rights.

So far your requests for assistance have not filled in any blanks. You've not really answered any questions, you haven't even given any back ground on what your game is like. In short you haven't provided enough meaningful information for anyone to even begin to help answer your questions.

Hello,

Hey Ralph, I think it's just a matter of us asking the right questions, at this point. Let me see if I'm getting the picture.

VK, by "Deadlands" book, I assume you mean 8.5" wide, 11" tall, and probably hardback for the core book, and probably several "core" books (e.g. Player's Guide, etc). The Deadlands rulebooks are also notable for its very high production value: slick paper, lots of interior color plates, and color text in many places. Is that right?

Publishing this kind of book is really expensive, and you might be surprised at some of the details in this case. Shane Hensley (a very nice guy, by the way) acquired venture capital in order to publish the book, and he had some eventual goals that involved Hollywood movie licensing. In other words, back then, it was all right for Pinnacle to lose money publishing the game itself - the whole venture was a risk, built on "springboarding" to a new medium of presentation.

[Shane or anyone who was involved in Deadlands publishing, please correct me if I'm wrong or misrepresenting anything. I realize what I've presented is necessarily very sketchy and over-simplified, and I want to emphasize that I am not criticizing the business model.]

So if you really want to put a book on the game-store shelves that resembles Deadlands, you probably should brace yourself to lose a hell of a lot of money. Shane had his reasons for doing this, and that's fine. The question is whether you have reasons for doing it too.

Best,
Ron

Yeah I know it will cost me some serious cash, which I don't have btw.


And yes I do have reasons for get this RPG on the shelves,

Vault Keeper wrote: And yes I do have reasons for get this RPG on the shelves,