Topic: Spiritual Attributes
Started by: Mordacc
Started on: 2/6/2003
Board: The Riddle of Steel
On 2/6/2003 at 1:11am, Mordacc wrote:
Spiritual Attributes
One question i have about spiritual attributes is what happens when they are spent? Lets say that Bob has 2 Drive, 2 Passion, and 3 Destiny. Over the course of play, his Drive is raised to 4, Passion to 5(he fell in love), and 4 destiny. THe first part of this question is that because he gained 4 SA points, is that all he can spend, or can he spend more points then he gained? THe sencond part of the question is that if he spent, say, 4 points on something, would that basically lower his SA's to a lower number (like form 5 to 1), and also, does it matter which SA's are decreased? Sorry if this isnt the most clearly put question.
Ok, just remembered another question. Is it possible to buy a sixth spiritual attribute? Since you begin with 5 of the six, and it says you can spend attributes to change another attribute, would it be possible, for example, to spend a certai # of SA points to buy a sixth spiritual attribute? A justification would be, for example, it you consistantly rolled lucky, you could spend x attributes and buy the Luck attribute.
On 2/6/2003 at 1:19am, Brian Leybourne wrote:
RE: Spiritual Attributes
It's all in the book.
5 SA's max, spend points from whichever SA's you like to buy other stuff, you can buy them all down to 0 if you like, it just gives you more room to improve them again.
I suggest you read pages 66-69 again (unless the page numbers have changed in the new revision - the SA section of Book 3 anyway).
Brian.
On 2/6/2003 at 2:45am, Jim DelRosso wrote:
RE: Spiritual Attributes
This might be in the book, but I'm without a copy at the moment.
Can you "save up" SA points, for big expenditures like Major Gifts or increasing high Attributes? You know, "I'm dropping my Drive by 2, and putting the points aside"?
I can understand why this might not be a desirable thing to allow, but I wasn't sure whether or not it was allowed.
On 2/6/2003 at 3:36am, Brian Leybourne wrote:
RE: Spiritual Attributes
Not according to the rules, no. The most expensive thing to buy is 25 points, which means maxing out all your SA's and spending them all down to 0 at the same time.
Brian
On 2/6/2003 at 1:43pm, Ville wrote:
RE: Spiritual Attributes
I find the spending of spiritual attributes to improve character a bit strange.
First of all, have I understood it correctly? You spend SAs permanently to increase some trait.
I find the following a bit strange:
"Ever since I stopped loving my girlfriend I improved with my rapier tremendously..."
or
"Once I stopped caring for the poor life has been good: Just look at these muscles."
or
"I became an atheist and after I lost my faith I just noticed how much easier it was for me to run those long distances..."
I mean, hello? What am I getting wrong here?
On 2/6/2003 at 2:04pm, Stephen wrote:
RE: Spiritual Attributes
Ville wrote: "Ever since I stopped loving my girlfriend I improved with my rapier tremendously..."
or
"Once I stopped caring for the poor life has been good: Just look at these muscles."
or
"I became an atheist and after I lost my faith I just noticed how much easier it was for me to run those long distances..."
I mean, hello? What am I getting wrong here?
I had the same question, and Ron Edwards may be along to help clarify things as well, but I'll give you a precis of what he told me: The long-term strength of an SA isn't a matter of how many dice are currently in it, but a matter of how vigorously you roleplay it. After all, even if you spend SAs to go from 5 to 0, you can behave (in-character) just as Passionately, Conscientiously or Faithfully as you always have and your SA will soon be back to 5.
The one counterintuitive glitch here is that, if you try to call upon an SA you've just spent down, your character gives the appearance momentarily of "not caring as strongly" because he doesn't have as many dice to call upon as he usually does. From a Seneschal's point of view, my answer is to keep careful track of the players' SA spending, and not to hit them with something that has to have that Passion 5 to succeed at the moment the player's just spent those points.
On 2/6/2003 at 3:57pm, Ron Edwards wrote:
RE: Spiritual Attributes
Boo-haha! Someone mention my name?
Here are a couple of threads to check out:
Another sorcery variant
Questions on SAs
I'd like to emphasize my "theme music" metaphor, which is to say that we are talking about something that the characters do not know about. With that in mind, and to deal with what Stephen finds counterintuitive, remember that each action taken during a scene may be evaluated for increasing an SA.
Let's say I just spent the SA Passion: Goblin Princess from 5 to 0 in the last ten minutes of play. Now, there she is! Threatened by the outlaw werewolf guy! Disowned by her father! Weeping, alone, and in deadly danger!
I swing into action with my sword - and my Passion hops from 0 to 1. I fight! Just one bonus die, but it's somethin'! And there's another increase, if I live. And so on. Within moments, I'm pumpin' with gas and Passion 5 again.
So actually, Stephen, I find that hitting PCs with exactly those situations that rev their attributes that happen to be at 0 is a very fun and effective way to GM.
Best,
Ron
Forge Reference Links:
Topic 3865
Topic 3919
On 2/6/2003 at 4:51pm, Stephen wrote:
RE: Spiritual Attributes
Ron Edwards wrote: I swing into action with my sword - and my Passion hops from 0 to 1. I fight! Just one bonus die, but it's somethin'! And there's another increase, if I live. And so on. Within moments, I'm pumpin' with gas and Passion 5 again.
So actually, Stephen, I find that hitting PCs with exactly those situations that rev their attributes that happen to be at 0 is a very fun and effective way to GM.
Absolutely, and I know what you mean; I'm just cautioning against hitting someone with a challenge at which it wouldn't be possible to succeed without those 5 dice that just got spent -- you note it yourself when you mention, "And there's another increase, if I live." If the Seneschal overestimates a player's resources at the wrong time, it's possible to set up a dangerously unfair situation (perhaps an ill-prepared-for combat where survival is a matter of who can buy initiative first, or a resolved-in-one-roll dive to save someone from falling off a cliff), effectively sticking it to a PC right at his moment of weakness -- which may be appropriate or even desireable, certainly, depending on circumstances, but the Seneschal should be aware that that's what's happening.
On 2/6/2003 at 5:14pm, Ron Edwards wrote:
RE: Spiritual Attributes
Hi Stephen,
Well put. Any chance of you making it to GenCon?
Best,
Ron
On 2/6/2003 at 6:17pm, Stephen wrote:
RE: Spiritual Attributes
Ron Edwards wrote: Hi Stephen,
Well put. Any chance of you making it to GenCon?
Highly unlikely, unfortunately, given I (a) don't know where it is and (b) couldn't afford to go if I did... The big cons this year are the World Horror Con in Minneapolis (my wife's first anthology is coming out in April and that's the premiere) and the World Science Fiction Convention in August here in T.O. (MAY go to World Fantasy in November if the budget permits....)
Plus, my wife has zero interest in gaming (although she understands mine and doesn't object to it at all, thankfully), so dragging her along would be out of the question, a notion which I'm still newly enough married to find objectionable. :)
When I order my copy of Sorcerer & Sword this month, though, I might get you to autograph it if you can.... ;)
On 2/6/2003 at 9:24pm, Ashren Va'Hale wrote:
RE: Spiritual Attributes
for those who dont like the 5 sa cap, I have created a great house rule, the most any sa can apply to a roll in 5 dice, but it can go higher. In other words a drive of "be a legendary swordsman" with 7 points can stillonly contribute 5 dice.
I also allow my players to choose from that house rule or only be able to roll sa dice once per round (not every roll).
I like eliminating the storage cap since when I write campaigns I usually have a MAIN SA for each PC that tends to be the focus sa for each session with the others being secondary sas (important but not THE story driving sa). With this style the sa cap makes progression difficult - the Main SA becomes less important once it hits 5 under the cap since role playing that sa can not bring any benefits so the players tend to pick an SA du'jour since the ones with 5 in them cant progress.
Its also fun, if you can handle it as senschal, to just let the sa's go without ANY ceiling or limit allowing roles whenever appropriate to that sa. This can result in low progression but nasty, nastyfights. I once had a samurai with 16 dice in drive that he would use in combat every time so I would have him face enourmous odds. The PC almost died countless times and it was fun watching him toss 30 dice at one time against one NPC. I only recommend doing this if you think you can handle it as seneschal, it is challenging to make the game challenging for the PC's with this mod but it can be terribly fun.
well, those are my multiple SA house rules.
On 2/6/2003 at 9:56pm, Valamir wrote:
RE: Spiritual Attributes
Interesting idea Ash...but when your players bump their main SA up against 5, why don't you simply encourage them to spend them. That frees up the room to earn more points.
I'd be loathe to allow the points to continue to accumulate because once I got 10 points in an SA I could spend 5 points and STILL have 5 bonus dice. I'd be walking around with perpetually maxed out SA stats and still having the ability to buy abilities...
On 2/7/2003 at 9:43pm, Ashren Va'Hale wrote:
RE: Spiritual Attributes
because imagine this: your character has a drive : avenge his loses on arch villain. This is the "primary SA", this is the one in which 50-75% of the 3-5 SA points will be awarded each game, the rest will go into those "secondary" SA's I mentioned that creep up from time to time but arent THE story driver SA's. So the player plays 3 sessions and gets 5 points in that Primary Drive SA, but he wants to increase his longsword prof which is currently 10 so he needs 5 or so more points, if he cant get those in drive he turns to faith and has to make that a primary SA which results in less story driven role playing and more MIN-Maxing role playing. It also is hell on a senschal who needs to create a story for 4 players with charcters who are uniquely theirs. If I have to create a story that can be based around 20 total unique SA's every game session then I would have to be much better than I actually am, so instead I I pick four MAIN SA's, one from each character and craft a main plot along those SA's with sub-plots relevant to the other SA's as far as I can work them into the story. The end result is an easier job writing adventures for me while the players still have fun and increase their stats etc....
hope this helps explain!
On 2/7/2003 at 9:49pm, Ashren Va'Hale wrote:
RE: Spiritual Attributes
one other key if you feel worried about the SA's overpowering the game, be restrictive as to when and where the PC's can use them, combine my other house rule and make it once per combat round and not once per applicable roll.
On 2/7/2003 at 11:13pm, Valamir wrote:
RE: Spiritual Attributes
Whoa whoa Ash, slow those ponies down.
Primary SAs...Secondary? No offense friend but you are reading ALL kinds of stuff into how these things work that just ain't so.
Point 1) ALL SAs are story driving SAs. There is no such thing as the "main" one that drives the story and the others that just follow along. Not the way it works in any game I've been a part of.
Point 2) I'm not certain what you mean by "story driver" and "creating a story" but I THINK I do, and I have to say, if you're going where I think you're going you're going to wind up in a world of trouble. If you think that your job as a GM is to write a story for your players and make sure that there are X number of "Drive" elements and Y number of "Passion" elements you're going about it the hard way.
If I have to create a story that can be based around 20 total unique SA's every game session then I would have to be much better than I actually am, so instead I I pick four MAIN SA's, one from each character and craft a main plot along those SA's with sub-plots relevant to the other SA's as far as I can work them into the story. The end result is an easier job writing adventures for me while the players still have fun and increase their stats etc....
Ouch. This is the hard way. Seriously. Your job as GM of TROS is not to create a story. It is not to write an adventure that makes sure there is at least 1 SA appropriate encounter per character. Note: I'm not trying to say "your method of GMing is wrong". I'm trying to say that in TROS what you're attempting is very very very difficult, and I might add, not really necessary.
The SAs are the players way of telling you what they want the story of their character to be about. If your players are motivated storytellers they'll pursue those goals without needing you to prep it for them. If your players are more reward motivated they'll still pursue those goals 'cuz that's how they level up. That's the brilliance of TROS. In other games with players interesting in "leveling up" and a GM interested in telling a story the GM will craft deep important stories and find ways to hook the players into them. In TROS not necessary at all.
TROS almost GMs itself in the story regard. You as GM need basically to wind them up and let them go. They'll find the story themselves, and your input comes from what of their actions you reward with points and what you don't.
My suggestion to you is skip the "story" prep entirely. Prep the setting. Prep important people in the setting. Prep the "stuff" that these people are doing (and yes try to have them doing things that are interesting to the players in light of what their SAs have told you they're interested in). Prep some plot, prep some "cut scenes", prep a location or two and whats going on in the locations. But don't prep the story.
The players will learn how to take all of the pieces you've presented them with and create the story for you. Even if they have zero skill and zero desire at creating story they will still create the story for you. What happens is they'll begin casting around at all of the various bits and pieces you've presented them with. THEY will glom on to opportunities to demonstrate an SA or two (trust me, they'll pick up on opportunities you'd never think of). They'll start to poke and prod at the bits and pieces you've thrown out there and in so doing they'll be finding ways to tie their SAs to them. Before you know it the half dozen NPCs you created with only a vague idea of who they are and what they're doing are suddenly enmeshed in a whole plot (the nature of which will have largely been determined by the players in their own pursuit of their SAs).
Seriously. Its how the game works best. TROS is like bread. If you knead and work it too long you'll ruin the batch. Knead it just enough, through it in a pan to rise (this is where the players start gloming on to your bits) then after its risen enough take it and punch it down, knead it some more and its ready to bake...ok, enough with the metaphor...but I'm being honest. GMing TROS is SOOOO much easier than almost any other fantasy game you've GMed.
On 2/8/2003 at 5:31am, Ashren Va'Hale wrote:
RE: Spiritual Attributes
I agree to dis agree with you whole heartedly. Thats the other beauty of TROS, I can do that. my players want a storyline that they can uncover, alter and manipulate. If the pc wants to avenge the man who killed his dad then the story is more fun if the baddie killed the dad for a reason that the pc doesn't know etc. Story telling is part of being seneschal to me and it iswhat my players want, so Iwill just agree to disagree before this degrades into a narrativist-simulationist style debate. I love how TROS is able to work for all styles of play, mine, yours, tht other dude down the street... versatility man, versatility.....
On 2/8/2003 at 6:05am, Valamir wrote:
RE: Spiritual Attributes
This has nothing to do with Simulation vs Narrative or anything. I think perhaps you are having an unnecessarily defensive reaction to my comments.
I tried to be very careful in my choice of words and not imply that you were doing anything wrong. Thats why I made a point to say that you're making it harder than it needs to be. You're worrying about creating set piece encounters to highlight 20 different SAs as being a collasal chore...and you're right, it would be. I'm saying that in my play experience no GM I've gamed with has done that. Nor in any of the campaigns I'm privy to the details about have they done that. That's the whole point to the SAs so you don't have to do that...its that point I think you're missing.
The SAs are not there to trick munchkin players into having a personality. The SAs are not there to assign numerical values to a players "background". The SAs are not there to turn the characters into supermen. The SAs are there so the GM doesn't need to have a carefully crafted plot with set encounters in order to achieve a story. I'm not talking bleeding edge director stance mumbo jumbo here. I'm talking letting the game work for you so you don't need to work so hard.
It works, I don't know whether Jake conciously knew it would when he designed it...since that's the way he GMs I suspect he just created rules to facilitate what he was already doing...but it works.
I really think that trying to control which SAs are the focus of a session is like hammering a square peg into a round hole...and I think you'd really be short changing yourself in the process.
On 2/8/2003 at 6:41am, Ashren Va'Hale wrote:
RE: Spiritual Attributes
I love interpreting emotions over text, you cant, dont worry friend I was in no way offended, I used narrativist/simulationist as an example of how debates can go NO WHERE. Thats all. i enjoy conversation too much to want it to degrade to fast. Sorry for the misunderstanding, as it is you do a good job explaining your point, I like how you phrased it.
and to clarify, I dont railroad the sa's, I just like having confrontations and opposition that works into the game for the players instead of just making crap up as I go. I write story as 10% planned and 90% what te players do with the 10% but I like to have that 10% linked to more than just color. If pc 1 hates mr x and pc 2 want s to avenge his father, while pc 3 wants his lands back and wants to recover his social status then I have MR. x be a powerful noble who killed pc 2's father and stole PC 3's land and offended pc 1. Now thats how I create a story with one MAIN SA for each PC. I let the rest handle it self. I dont limit the SA's because if the PC earns points in drive and drive has 5 points already I dont want to have to say "you earned it in drive but that full so heres a faith die"
Now I am not mad, let me clarify that, I am neither offended, I enjoy this thread.