Know how to cut them, know how to read them,
Know how to stain them, know how to prove them,
Know how to evoke them, know how to score them,
Know how to send them; know how to send them.

I'm interested in any ideas or suggestions on creating a campaign based in historical/actual saga based midieval scandinavia. This discussion began specifically about my attempts to create a workable magic system over at http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?p=64221#64221 but I think a larger discussion would be worthwhile.

I'm working on creating a world based in the actual sagas - Volsunga Saga, Njals Saga, Gisli Saga, etc. I'm not interested in "big norse guys smash stuff, have magic helms and runes" vikings; besides, vikings were NOT an ethnicity, as being a viking was more a profession (or perhaps a passtime).

Questions I'm interested in: what system would you use for your Iceland campaign? New, adapted? And how would you balance "historical setting" v. "historically percieved setting" v. historical setting presented through literature," as well as the difference between the Islindingur Sagas (historical sagas, i.e. Njals Saga) and the Fornalda Sagas (legendary sagas, i.e. Volsunga Saga)? I want to run Volsunga Saga and Njals saga at the same time, but I'm not sure if that's possible.

Thoughts on the Riddle of Steel system? I've been reading alot about it and thinking of buying it and altering the magic, as the "gritty, violent, and quick death" combat system seems right for the sagas, but I haven't actually bought it yet. Any thoughts?

I'm having a hard time finding a system that manages to have magic a common, every day element of life without the Fireball mage cropping up. Superstition, leaving out food for the fairies and hildafolk (elves), trolls, crazy seers from Lappland and Greenland, wards against the evil eye, runes of protection, ships dedicated to Thor, Christians wielding a crucifix as a weapon - all these should be nearly daily, without merely being cultural; they are real. When Egil Skallagrimson carved his runes to curse his enemy King Erik Blood-Axe, he didn't spent power-points, summon anything, and tap into ethereal forces of the unknown. How do you limit a magicians power while making magic present?

I began developing runes as an entirely seperate system, and have something that seems workable - runes are very labor intensive and difficult to 'obtain'; many know the futhark alphabet, few can harness the power of a few runes, and very few can carve complex bind-runes to create the swords that Sigurd and Sigfried caried. Characters have to obtain runes through ordeal and suffering (as did Odin, who hung upon the world tree for nine days and nights), and so only slowly learn more. I like the idea of sacrifice for magical power (I'm interested in Riddle of Steel's aging penalty), but a player can make sacrifices that no character might - few "real" people are willing to give up all human relations and comfort for the power of magic, but a player can shrug and say "sure, torture me and fill me with knowledge." But then I suppose any system can be screwed that isn't used as a collaboration between players and GM to create an enjoyable game.

I'm thinking of even just going for a diceless, Everway/Amber approach, modified to fit the setting - magic just IS, and the players and I can figure our what their players can do. Ah, my eternal conflict - I love the tables of Rolemaster, yet yearn for the freedom of Everway. I suppose my best games were when I ran Rolemaster virtually diceless. . .

Long opening, I know . . . sound off. In a day or two I'll get my act together and provide a link to my notes, so people can have a better idea of what I'm thinking of.

I'm not really sure that magic is everyday at all in the sagas. There are some which have a little more, but it's usually very low-key stuff (Thord gets a premonition that he's going to die, one of Gunnar's kids has a vision of his dead father). Magic in the "useful to player characters" sense is pretty limited.

Now, there are tons of magical elements (Killer-Hrapp comes back from the dead to kick ass, Thor delivers a shipment of second-rate whalemeat), but for the most part I don't think you should worry too much about characters being able to do magic.

Hell, you could take the UA approach and just say that so-and-so has a skill in foretelling the future. OtE does this kind of thing as well. Just say that Thangbrand has "a mighty fortress is our God" as a skill or similar, and you're off to the races.

Which, I guess, means that I come down on the fudge-it end of things. I don't think protagonists using magic is a common enough (or distinct enough) event in the sagas that it justifies its own separate system.

The only problem is if you want to have Volsungasaga-type stuff in there. I don't think that the Volsungasaga and the Islendingasogur go well together at all; they're very different types of stories. Some Icelandic sagas (Egil's Saga) veer a little bit in this high-powered direction, but there's still not as much monster ass-kicking.

I'd be wary of dragging Edda material into this as well: I can't think of a precedent in the sagas (though I could be wrong) for characters suffering to learn magic -- Egil suffered in exchange(?) for his gift of poetry, which was far more important to him.

Yeah, I'm worried about falling into the "kitchen sink" trap - I spent many an hour as an undergrad trying to make the Norse mythos make sense, to weave it into some coherant whole, but to no avail (Have you ever TRIED to draw a map of the cosmos as described in the Eddas?)

I think the only reason I haven't given up entirely on character's using actual "magic" is I have this player who keeps begging and begging . . . but you're right. The fact is that I can't think of a single "magical" saga hero - Njal had precongnisent dreams, characters were fated and cursed, but even outside of the primary heroes there is very little magic apart from seers and curses. One of the few passages I can find that refers to what might be D&D fireball style magic is an obscure passage where King Hrolf is fighting the Lappish king, and "then the enchantments rained down so fiercely that many hundreds perished." And since I don't exactly want that power to be in the hands of my characters anyway, perhaps just the "magic is an unknown force that usually scares the shaggy-breaches off you" approach would be best.

I'm currently thinking two campaigns - a Fornaldasaga campaign (for the dragon slaying, the dwarves, and the helms of terror), and and Islindigursaga campaign (I'm trying to embroil the characters loosing the war resisting King Harold Fair-Hairs conquest of Norway). I'm pondering having the second consists of characters decended from those from the first, but we'll see . . .

EDIT: cross-posted with Chris, above

James, note that Chris is also trying for a historical-style game, not merely one based on the myths and legends of the aforementioned texts. As such, magic and such is common, because everyone (and I mean everyone) knows it and does it.

It's like driving a car or using a computer today: its reality is unquestioned, of course it works, because it is supposed to. Ghosts and spirits and dopplegangers abound, 'ware being hexed, and know that the gods and valkyries are watching your battles and wandering the world -- tonight's visitor might be Odin himself.

These aren't things a rational man would question, unless rational men of our age question driving cars or using computers. And just as with that, there are various levels of proficiency: the priests and skjalds and others can work "magic" more easily than the common man does -- they know more secrets than the common man does.

Finally, the things that priests and magicians know are actually very limited. You can only do certain things with your magic, as a modern person can only do certain things with their car or computer: travel to the otherworlds, create bind-runes, shapeshift, invoke the gods.

Unfortunately, I don't have any answers for this question myself; I've long been looking for a system of realistic medieval/ancient magic in a game that doesn't fall prey to standard gamer conventions like requirements of "energy" or "knowledge," since neither accurately capture the idea of the peasant or commoner's worldview and practices.

ADD: so do you want a historical or a saga-based campaign, Chris? These two things are going to have seriously different requirements.

Chris wrote: I'm thinking of even just going for a diceless, Everway/Amber approach, modified to fit the setting - magic just IS, and the players and I can figure our what their players can do. Ah, my eternal conflict - I love the tables of Rolemaster, yet yearn for the freedom of Everway. I suppose my best games were when I ran Rolemaster virtually diceless. . ..

First the historical/legendary question . . . I actually see it as tri-part division:

1) Historical - what the history books tell you happened. Real men living on real Iceland, with a bunch of superstitions that are all equally untrue.

2)Historical Literary - the world as presented in the Islindingursagas. Based on real men and real fueds, but curses were REAL magic, runes had REAL effects, Lapps REALLY went on spirit-journeys, Grettir REALLY battled undead giants.

3)Legendary - the world as presented in the Fornaldursagas. Sigurd rescues Brynhilda from within the flames, Odin sways the corse of battles, Sigfried slays the dragon Fapnir, men turn in to bears.

I had started thinking I would do Legendary AND Historical Literary, but all they have in common is a touch of the fantastic. I'm thinking of focusing on the Historical Literary, but any ideas are wanted.

Second, I must find a copy of RuneQuest, as it is mentioned again and again.

I discarded the notion of occupation, which is essentially an anachronism. In a rural society like this, everyone is a farmer, and all men are warriors, and everyone has a craft. There are no professional specialists.

I have added in an abstract Wealth system. This is very important, since there is essentially no coinage used. Wealth is primarily in land, livestock, and thralls. Right now it is just a scale of what you can afford.

Hey Chris,

Okay, I've been overdosing on this message board. I have to stop, collect my thoughts, and get some of my write ups on-line for anyone who would be kind enough to read them.

Before you do that, send a private message to Scott Knipe (who posts here as Hardcoremoose) and ask him for the pdf of his game WYRD.

Paul

Oh, and how is RuneQuest for keeping combat brutal? I like what I hear about Riddle of Steel, because I want combat to be quick, dangerous, and deadly. When Gunnar is defending himself in Njals saga, he strikes at Asbrand, and "the halberd went right through his shield and between the upper arm and foreorm. Gunnar then twisted the halberd so violently that the shield split and both Asbrand's arm-bones were shattered; and he, too, toppled from the wall." One lunge, one death - no hit die, no chiping away at life.

Hi Chris,

RuneQuest invented brutal RPG combat. Its nickname back in the early 80s was "LimbQuest" because characters were all running around trying to get their chopped-off limbs healed back on.

There's more lineage here than you might be seeing. Pendragon's system is a derived form of RuneQuest; Legend of the 5 Rings is strongly influenced by Pendragon; The Riddle of Steel is strongly influenced by both L5R and Pendragon.

Best,
Ron

Chris wrote: I had started thinking I would do Legendary AND Historical Literary, but all they have in common is a touch of the fantastic. I'm thinking of focusing on the Historical Literary, but any ideas are wanted.

Second, I must find a copy of RuneQuest, as it is mentioned again and again.

Chris wrote: (Re: Wealth) I like it, and would be interested in any details you'd be willing to share. I've been envisioning something like that - I like the "equip your character" rules in Sorcerer - your character starts with anything that would make sense for them to have. It doesn't matter if the characters are wealthy or not

greyorm wrote: EDIT: cross-posted with Chris, above

James, note that Chris is also trying for a historical-style game, not merely one based on the myths and legends of the aforementioned texts. As such, magic and such is common, because everyone (and I mean everyone) knows it and does it.

Hi to all,
I've played an Icelandic Saga ten yers ago with a homebrewed game system.
One of my PC played a Runic Shaman. I designed for him a special magic system based on the old futhark. And it works really good. I took the basic idea of this system on on old (but still played) one. A german RPG: Die Schawrze Auge (The Black Eye ?).
This is a freeform magic system that allows the player to create his own spells by combining three runes.
At the beginning a runic shaman knows a few rune and during the campaign quests for more runic knowledge.
Best regards,
piR

And it works really good. I took the basic idea of this system on on old (but still played) one. A german RPG: Die Schawrze Auge (The Black Eye ?). This is a freeform magic system that allows the player to create his own spells by combining three runes. At the beginning a runic shaman knows a few rune and during the campaign quests for more runic knowledge.

My only problem with this is - if someone can carve a rune onto my sword to make it more damaging in battle (+1, or whatever your system is), why didn't anyone just set up a magic sword shop and crank out runed items all day? Sure, people would seek out a wise man and have him bless or inscribe something, by there isn't anyone riding around with a magic sword, helm, cloak, saddle, horn, loin-cloth, soup-bowl, et cetera. I guess this is what started me thinking along the lines of strain/exhaustion, as then you CAN'T keep it up forever. . .

Chris wrote: My only problem with this is - if someone can carve a rune onto my sword to make it more damaging in battle (+1, or whatever your system is), why didn't anyone just set up a magic sword shop and crank out runed items all day? Sure, people would seek out a wise man and have him bless or inscribe something, by there isn't anyone riding around with a magic sword, helm, cloak, saddle, horn, loin-cloth, soup-bowl, et cetera. I guess this is what started me thinking along the lines of strain/exhaustion, as then you CAN'T keep it up forever.

As far as I know, they did. Historically, it was extremely common for swords, shields, ships, and houses to have runic blessings inscribed on them -- this is confirmed by archeology. Some people's immediate reaction is "but that's not magic -- that's just carving a rune on something for good luck"... but of course, "good luck" is exactly what magic is for most people. In most systems, a minor +1 bonus seems like a reasonable representation of good luck.

It may or may not be relevant, but Atlas recently released an Ars Magica suppliment for Iceland. There may be some content for you there to delve into.

James Holloway wrote: (our knowledge of what historical Icelanders did and believed in terms of magic and religion could barely be dignified with the term "sketchy"

Note that the Icelandic sagas aren't "myths and legends." They're novels, possibly the first novels.

Chris,

Have you looked at Hero Wars? Its use of attributes and affinities carries the flavor of "everyday magic" that you describe. See the Using Affinities and Feats topic in the Hero Wars forum for a recent discussion of affinities as a way to augment other abilities. This seems to me a perfect fit for saga based magic. Of course, I might be predisposed to think this; during our late, great Hero Wars campaign, I often thought of my character's deity, Yinkin, as being a variation of Loki.

Julie

greyorm wrote: While the records are certainly nowhere near complete, the available knowledge is more than sketchy; the no-where near extensive shelf of materials I own on the subject supports this.
...
In what way are they not myths and legends?
And perhaps it would be best to define which sagas, specifically, we are referring to, or are being used as reference for the game?

which sagas, specifically, we are referring to, or are being used as reference for the game?

This is an important distinction. The difference between myth (like the Eddas), a romance (like Arrow-Odd), and a novel (like the Laxdaela Saga) is not just power level. It is what the story is about.There is no epic struggle resolved; no gods or wars. It is about the four marriages of a woman, and the choices which she made.

Chris wrote: I spent my senior year in college translating a saga and writing about this, then a year in Iceland on a fulbright talking to people about this, but John's got it in a nut shell. You've got Eddas, Fornaldasagas (Legendary Sagas) and Islindingur Sagas (Icelandic Sagas, the "Novels"). I'm really interested in talking about all of them, but the campaign I'm planning right now is an Islindingur saga.

Chris wrote: And now I need to look at Hero's Quest too . . . you know, before I started hanging out here, I thougth I was REALLY well played - I awed my friends with the 25+ systems I had read and played, and now I feel like a rank amature. Humility is a virtue.

Well, John and Chris have pretty much made my point for me about the sagas -- when I think "the sagas," I'm thinking of the Islendingasogur. So, Njal's Saga, Laxdaela Saga, Eyrbyggja Saga, Egil's Saga, Bandamanna Saga (which might be a "romance"), and so on. These really don't have a mythical or legendary characteristic.

As for this thing about "ships, houses, shields and swords" having runes on them, this being "confirmed by archaeology..." That's really not true. Of the seven or eight Viking-era Scandinavian ships that have been excavated, none have runic inscriptions that I'm aware of. The only period shields surviving are the ones from the Oseberg burial -- they're plain wood. I can't think of a Viking sword with a runic inscription. Some of them have Latin inscriptions identifying the smith (since many of them were made in Francia -- the classic example are the "Ulfbehrt" swords), but runes? If they exist I can't think of them off the top of my head (primarily for preservation reasons -- they're sword-shaped bars of rust these days). Now, there are some *English* weapons with runic script on them -- the Battersea seax is a good example -- so I suppose there's no reason to rule out the possibility of inscriptions on swords. As for houses, there are obviously no standing Viking age houses. I don't know where that idea could be coming from.

The majority of Viking age runic inscriptions that we know about are runestones, graffiti like the ones in Hagia Sophia or on the Arsenal lion in Venice, item inscriptions on things like brooches, drinking horns, combs and caskets (which are sometimes, very rarely, magical in nature, but which often say things like "this casket belongs to so-and-so" or "so-and-so made this comb"), and notes on little strips of wood.

I stand by my assessment that once you exclude high medieval written sources (like the sagas and Eddas) our knowledge of Scandinavian religious practice (as opposed to mythology) is next to nil. Almost anything you read in any book on the subject is going to come from the written sources.

Now, of course, Chris is basing his game on these written sources, so if you want to go carving runes on everything, knock yourself out.

I'm sorry; this discussion isn't really appropriate for the forum, and I should cut it out. It's just one of my buttons: I'm a grad student in early medieval archaeology, and religious practices in Viking Britain (which necessitates looking at Viking age Scandinavia a bit, as you might imagine) are a big interest of mine, so when the subject comes up I have a hard time restraining myself. I guess I'm just always happy to have people I haven't already bored to tears on the subject.

this discussion isn't really appropriate for the forum, and I should cut it out. It's just one of my buttons: I'm a grad student in early medieval archaeology, and religious practices in Viking Britain (which necessitates looking at Viking age Scandinavia a bit, as you might imagine) are a big interest of mine, so when the subject comes up I have a hard time restraining myself.

Here we go - my initial thoughts regarding runic magic.

http://theweekinreview.blogspot.com/v_rpgrunes.doc

Any thoughts would be welcome, especially if there is anything similar I should check out - I don't want to recreate the wheel, and there are SO many games out there. But I already have an apologetic note at the begining of it, so I'm not going to do to many mea culpas here.

Moderator comment: I totally support academic referencing and information-exchange in these discussions. I think we can all tell the difference between helpful information and ego-based dick-swinging, so that's the distinction to watch out for. But actual use of specialized knowledge to help a person's game in any way? Fabulous.

Links are always helpful rather than long perorations, if possible.

Best,
Ron

James Holloway wrote: Well, John and Chris have pretty much made my point for me about the sagas -- when I think "the sagas," I'm thinking of the Islendingasogur. So, Njal's Saga, Laxdaela Saga, Eyrbyggja Saga, Egil's Saga, Bandamanna Saga (which might be a "romance"), and so on. These really don't have a mythical or legendary characteristic.

As for this thing about "ships, houses, shields and swords" having runes on them, this being "confirmed by archaeology..." That's really not true.

From my reading, runes appear important in the mythic Eddas, but they are hardly mentioned at all in the historical sagas. While there has been a fair amount of magic in my game, it has mostly been through the influence of a prophetess (shaman, really). There's been a lot of speaking with the dead, messages from the disir, and so forth.

Chris wrote:

From my reading, runes appear important in the mythic Eddas, but they are hardly mentioned at all in the historical sagas. While there has been a fair amount of magic in my game, it has mostly been through the influence of a prophetess (shaman, really). There's been a lot of speaking with the dead, messages from the disir, and so forth.

What you're doing sounds very saga. While there aren't many runes in the sagas, I agree with the idea that I want to balance "Real" with "atmosphere." I think Egil's nid/nith (curse the lack of 'eth' and 'thorn' on the keyboard) runes cursing Erik Blood-Axe are the only that spring to mind. But this weekend I'm craking out my penguin classics and doing some research.

RiP, if you have any more info on this (is there anywhere I can find this in english, summerized on-line somewhere, etc.), that would be great.

Wayfarer's Song is a free rpg with essentially a Norse/Old English feel to it, magic worked into the everyday and IMO a neat system attached.

http://www.geocities.com/mythopoetic_games/downloads.html

It's basically designed for this kind of game and is what I'd use.

On the question of Runes on Swords:

Being a rampant lurker, I was reluctant to chime in, but I love this topic and I wanted to contribute, if only to the academic side of the question posed.

I've been dabbling in my own studies of European or Western Martial Arts during the Middle Ages and Renaissance, particularly as it pertains to the sword. As you might imagine, there is a great deal of misinformation out there on the web, but the folks I'm going to refer you to take great pains to document their sources, and to keep their conjectures nice n' scholarly.

Now to quote:

"Pattern-welded blades continued to be made at least into the early 10th century, however, over the course of the 9th century, twisted iron inlays forming letters, symbols and geometric designs came to predominate. Lang and Ager's survey of the British material failed to disclose swords with both a pattern welded structure and iron inlays, however such swords are not uncommon in the continental material."*

*(emphasis mine)

The full article is here:

http://www.vikingsword.com/serpent.html

And from there you should be able to easily make your way back to all you might ever want to know concerning swords of the so-called "viking" era. If you do want to seek out more, I suggest inquiring at the forums at NetSword or Sword Forum International.

Oh, and please update this post, or start a new one when you figure out what system you'll be using. I found this forum following links from the intriguing sounding tRoS system, and I'll be interested to hear if you go with it, and how well it works.

Sorry if this was to far afield topic-wise; just wanted to help.

--Po

Not far afield at all - I was happy to see this thread jump to life again. I've been busy lately (and will be until mid-june; I teach High School, and spring fever is kicking in big time), so I haven't had any time to add any new thoughts - not that I've thought any.

Since I've had little time for serious thought, I've been using my M.A. classtime to sketch out some family trees for the major European families - I'm basing them somewhat around actual sagas, but am mainly going for feel rather than accuracy. I want to combine various eras and families - I'm not going for historical, so I can have King Haralds conquest of Norway run about the same time as the Battle of Hastings, the vikings rulling Northumbria; with a Valkyrie queen in Germany (re: Hrolfs Saga Kraki), pict and celt kingdoms at the edges of the Brittish isles, etc. I feel sort of like a cheat not using actual family trees, but in order to conflate all of the various sources into one coherant whole, going with a tone rather than fact seems the best way to go.

Oh, and please update this post, or start a new one when you figure out what system you'll be using. I found this forum following links from the intriguing sounding tRoS system, and I'll be interested to hear if you go with it, and how well it works.

Chris wrote:

I want to combine various eras and families - I'm not going for historical, so I can have King Haralds conquest of Norway run about the same time as the Battle of Hastings, the vikings rulling Northumbria;

Um. . .but Vikings WERE in Northumbria. The Anglo-Dane line comes fromt the Danes that ruled out of York, who were . . . Vikings. "Viking" is really loose, and constitutes all the scandinavians who looted, pillaged, and eventually settled the Atlantic Coast of Europe (though once they settled, I suppose, the term Viking became less applicable). Beowulf is the great "English" epic, but it is about a Geat (southern Sweden) traveling to Denmark. So I was just saying that I was rolling a whole bunch of history that was spread over a few hundred years into a few decades.

I understand the completely anal historicism - I have spent hours getting London bus-routes correct, finding the birth and deaths dates of victorian scholars, etc. The things is that were my campaign to follow, say, Saxo Grammaticus's history of Denmark, the dates and names would conflict with the Landnomabok, which would contradict Heimskringla, which wouldn't match up to Old English Anals or the Domsday book. To say nothing of the sagas themselves, which twisted history and family trees out of ignorance and/or propaganda (my seior thesis was that the author of Volsunga Saga and Ragnars Saga was using the epic to create a family tree that connected King Harold to the Volsungs, thus legitimizing his claim to the throne).

Which is why scholars study the sagas seperately, and not try to make a campaign world out of them. Only those of us foolish and brave enough . . .

Chris wrote: Um. . .but Vikings WERE in Northumbria. .

James Holloway wrote:

Chris wrote: Um. . .but Vikings WERE in Northumbria. .

Yes, but not contemporary with the battle of Hastings they weren't. So if there are Vikings in Northumbria, is there a battle of Fulford Gate? If so, why? It can't be because Harald Hardraada has a claim to the throne, because clearly Knut was never king of England in this timeline. And what's William the Bastard's claim to the throne? Does this mean that Harold Godwineson is only king of Wessex?

And so on and so on.

Believe me, I know there Vikings in Northumbria. I live in what used to be Northumbria.