I'm trying to design a magic system for a setting that I'm basing around the Icelandic Sagas (mytho-historical viking setting based on primary medieval source material). To keep magic "realistic" and subtle, I'm planning on designing some sort of exhaustion/strain based magic system, staying away from "spells per level," "power points" and "spell lists." I'm thinking something along the lines of Shadowrun. I hear that the new LOTR game has an exhaustion based magic, but I haven't got my hands on it yet.

Any suggestions? What are some good models to look at, what are things being worked on out there? Alternatively, any RPG magic theory alternatives would be great. I'm looking for flexible, quick, organic, and intuitive - no fireball flinging mages, no page flipping.

It's not exhaustion based, but The Riddle of Steel's magic system is "flexible, quick, organic, and intuitive - no fireball flinging mages, no page flipping." once you've got the hang of it. As a matter of fact, as you've not specified a system that you're using for the setting, might I recommend The Riddle of Steel as an excellent system for doing historical medieval fantasy settings? If you're interested, check out the forum here on the Forge, and the website at theriddleofsteel.net

I'll check it out. I tentatively began basing my game around the generic d20 system, but my life-long hatred of D&D's magic was what started me brainstorming on my own. Then I did away with classes, so right now I have a heavily modified d20 - character's use "points" to create a "base class" (attack/save tables, hit die, class skills, etc.), and the magic is all new. Currently its looking more like an original game than d20. A few more revisions, and I might post some initial drafts.

If you're using a modified D&D systm, you might want to consider having the caster spend hitpoints for a simple system, or have it cause submission damage if you don't mind keeping track of something extra.

As for how to define spells - it depends. The advantage of the basic D&D system (choose from list) is that it gives the impression of spells being pieces of arcane lore learned by rote and passed down from wizard to wizard. Spells all premade and prechecked for balance/abuse issues. Disadvantage: No freeform spells.

There's the effects based systems such as Hero (complicated) or Big Eyes Small mouth (Not quite so complicated) where what's important is what the spell ends up doing, rather than how it does it. In these systems you piece together the spell by going through a big list of effects and applying modifiers to them. Advantages: Very flexible but little 'fudging' involved. Spells are as balanced as is possible without Gm fiat. Disadvantages: Either lots of book flipping during play, or player creates a set of stock spells which is just D&D spells all over:

Finally method based where how the spell does its thang is more important than what it does. Eg: Ars Magica, Donjon and Mage: The ascension - which is a more evolved (though not necessarily better) version of that system. Spells are defined in terms of what abilities you'd need to cast them and as long as you can piece together your character's spell abilities in the right way, you can do anything thematically appropriate. Advantages: Very freeform, gives individual mages their own unique flavour. Disadvantages: Relatively little to insure game balance and requires quite a few Gm calls.

Finally, there's the 'Wizard' systems, where any mage can do anything and they just roll the dice for it against how difficult the GM thinks it is. (sorry, I can't think of any examples right now for some reason.
Advantages: The simplest of the systems and alows for the most creativity. Disadvantages: Requires a lot of player/Gm trust and has a very bland flavour.

There's probably more that I can't thinj of right now, but I hope these are some use.

(Edited because i forgot to mention the total freeform type)

I would not reccomend Shadowrun as a model, It uses a 'save vs consequences' model,
i.e. magic has a chance of causing exhaustion, so generally a players knows if a spell will
cause strain, so minor magic becomes common, but major magic is still rare. I.e. charachters are build to absorb minor strain with no problem. Ars Magica is a bit similar in this respect, If your good enough, you can cast a spell all day.

If you go with 'all magic' causes exhaustion you end up with the DnD effect. (Cast my X spells for today, I'm done). I'd say the solution is that mages have other abilities, i.e. the can still do something usefull without out it.

Can you give a better idea what your looking for?

Chris wrote: I'm trying to design a magic system for a setting that I'm basing around the Icelandic Sagas (mytho-historical viking setting based on primary medieval source material). To keep magic "realistic" and subtle, I'm planning on designing some sort of exhaustion/strain based magic system, staying away from "spells per level," "power points" and "spell lists."

Any suggestions? What are some good models to look at, what are things being worked on out there? Alternatively, any RPG magic theory alternatives would be great. I'm looking for flexible, quick, organic, and intuitive - no fireball flinging mages, no page flipping.

I can't REALLY define more of what I'm looking for, because I'm still working on the basic concept - if you've read Volsunga Saga, Njals Saga, Hrolfs Saga Kraki, Gisli Saga, etc. you'd sort of know the feel if was going for. I actually AM going for the "small magic common, big magic rare" effect that Shadowrun has, though it isn't the system I want to ultimately base it on.

For the most part magic simply works. Simple charms and spirit blessings can just be used at will. (Incidentally, this is part of my complaint with what I call "scientific" magic systems -- that they simply assume that magic requires energy

Hi Chris,

Sounds to me like a broader perspective on role-playing magic is what's needed.

Are you familiar with the following (all very different) systems?

- RuneQuest
- Fantasy Hero (Hero System / Champions)
- Tunnels & Trolls
- GURPS

All of them use (or potentially use) some form of exhaustion or strain relative to magic use. In some of them, it's a highly strategic resource-issue; in others, it's a physics-of-magic issue.

[Folks, the various editions of Ars Magica present very different approaches to magic, and I am not intimately familiar with which is which; my edition is a very early one. Can anyone help re: this game, in terms of the role of exhaustion/strain?]

For an extremely different approach to magic in play, and one which is very heavily influenced by precisely the sources you're citing, see Hero Wars, or its soon-to-be-released derived form, Hero Quest. The nice thing about this system is that fatigue can be invoked as an explanation for a variety of negative outcomes, without having to be tracked until its effects hit.

Best,
Ron

I was just telling a friend of mine that the Hero/Champios system was one of the few major ones that I'd never read. . . I'm not a huge GURPS fan (the same tired refrain - "great ideas, but . . ." "I love the source books").

As for Hero's Quest, I ASSUME you don't mean the board game that I spent most of junior-high playing where players move generic archetypes through endless levels of of altering dungeons, killing random ors and goblins and amassing treasure for no apparent purpose?

I do want to continue the magic discussion, but I've also started a general discussion on historical/saga based camapigning at http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=6247.

Sovereign Stone (then old one, not the d20 version) has fatigue based magic. Specifically, every spell has a target number that you have to beat in order for the spell to go off. You can take as many rolls as you need to beat the target number - they add up - but rerolls do stun damage. And there's also the potential to botch. A serious botch can result in unconcsiousness, the spell going wild, etc.

That being said, though, are you sure that "fatigue based magic" is really appropriate for an icelandic viking saga style game? I've never noticed fatigue being particularly important in any of the literature. It's all about arcane knowledge, constructing charms, casting runes, etc. Such magic is very craftsman-like, more like Celebrimbor forging the Rings of Power than Gandalf shooting off his fireworks.

That being said, though, are you sure that "fatigue based magic" is really appropriate for an icelandic viking saga style game? I've never noticed fatigue being particularly important in any of the literature.

Ron Edwards wrote:
[Folks, the various editions of Ars Magica present very different approaches to magic, and I am not intimately familiar with which is which; my edition is a very early one. Can anyone help re: this game, in terms of the role of exhaustion/strain?]

My question is, you want people to engage in everyday small luck charms, rune carvings, signs to avoid the evil eye, but how much of this is real and how much is superstition?

Chris wrote: Superstition, leaving out food for the fairies and hildafolk (elves), trolls, crazy seers from Lappland and Greenland, wards against the evil eye, runes of protection, ships dedicated to Thor, Christians wielding a crucifix as a weapon - all these should be nearly daily, without merely being cultural; they are real. When Egil Skallagrimson carved his runes to curse his enemy King Erik Blood-Axe, he didn't spent power-points, summon anything, and tap into ethereal forces of the unknown. How do you limit a magicians power?

Chris,

I'm currently working on the same sort of thing (d20-based homebrewery) and have elected to use the Vitality/Wounds option for our system.

The magic rules i'm still mulling over currently cost the caster Vitality points. (something along the lines of 1 point/level of the spell cast.) i know Thomas mentioned the idea of spending HP previously, but figured i'd toss in my 2-cents as well.

-k

To put minor magics in perspective, I often consider the fact that a traffic light could be seen as a minor ward--very few will pass the line established by a red light, and the moment you do, there's usually an intense feeling of guilt and paranoia involved. Traffic lights are mundane these days, so a similar effect might have been just as mundane back in The Day--and if so, there may be no need to consider it "magic."

Well, you could require a check to set up the ward, then a check to break it. I don't know what your system is, but in Storyteller terms, it might be a Charisma + Hearth Magic roll to set up the ward, and to break it you might have to make a Willpower roll and match or exceed the success of the creator of the ward.

To make magic "mundane," you don't have to hand-wave it; rather, you can just make a skill that rules "mundane magic" and have it work under the same system as other skills. You'd require a skill check for First Aid/medicine, so why not for setting wards/blessing a weapon?

The way you describe it (I haven't read any of those sagas), it seems like the minor magics are, essentially, mystical sciences that anyone can perform, provided they have the training. The thing that separates that from your average skill is, in my opinion, flavor text.

Jay Turner wrote: To make magic "mundane," you don't have to hand-wave it; rather, you can just make a skill that rules "mundane magic" and have it work under the same system as other skills. You'd require a skill check for First Aid/medicine, so why not for setting wards/blessing a weapon?

The way you describe it (I haven't read any of those sagas), it seems like the minor magics are, essentially, mystical sciences that anyone can perform, provided they have the training. The thing that separates that from your average skill is, in my opinion, flavor text.

I thought I would throw in a link which I found useful for saga-based magic:

http://www.vikinganswerlady.com/seidhr.htm

To get back to the original topic, if I might, I am a big fan of the exhaustion idea (might have to do with starting playing RPGs with TFT). Might not be the best idea here, but I like it in general. I have a few notes, however.

First, many games only limit magic in a way that makes it tactically limited. This bugs the heck out of me. It says thta magic is only considered in the context of combat, and not how it would affect the world. So systems like TFT are at fault here. You get a bit tired, sure, but right after being tired, you can rest for a little while, and be right back ready to go for the next fight.

Actually there are systems that are much worse than TFT. While it might take you hours to recover in TFT, in Hero System if you use the simple default END system, you can recover from any spell that doesn't kill you usually in just a couple of minutes or less. Which means that spell casters can cast spells all day long.

OTOH, recognizing this, Hero includes a system that works against this effect. Long Term Endurance (LTE), is a neat idea. Basically, if you go slow enough, like walking, you can go pretty much all day, and not accumulate too much LTE loss. But if you run, you'll accumulate more per unit time. What this means for spells is that you can perhaps cast "cantrips" all day long, but more serious spells are more limiting. They can reduce your overall endurance in a way that takes day-long periods of rest, or full night's of sleep. In fact I love that you can get sooo tired, that you wake up the next day, still weary from the day before (I allow this to be transfered to STUN loss to represent the pains accumulated from working the day before).

All very realistic, and all very limiting if you do it right. Now, the Hero System rules for this are actually a bit clunky in execution, but the idea is right. Basically, some of your endurance lost should last a long time. This basically makes casting spells very similar to hard work. If you keep the effects that can be produced by magic and non-magical effects similar, then this explains why magic doesn't affect everything in the world (any more than, say, Farming would).

This does mean that, IMO, that strong magic should really task you physically. In Hero if you take too much END loss, you start taking STUN. If you take too much STUN, you take BODY (like HP). So, as long as you require spells to be really costly (x4 END cost for Hero or so), and allow that to really threaten the character's well being, you'll have the limiter that I think really works well.

Mike

Mike Holmes wrote: First, many games only limit magic in a way that makes it tactically limited. This bugs the heck out of me. It says thta magic is only considered in the context of combat, and not how it would affect the world. So systems like TFT are at fault here. You get a bit tired, sure, but right after being tired, you can rest for a little while, and be right back ready to go for the next fight.

Actually there are systems that are much worse than TFT. While it might take you hours to recover in TFT, in Hero System if you use the simple default END system, you can recover from any spell that doesn't kill you usually in just a couple of minutes or less. Which means that spell casters can cast spells all day long.

I agree. But usually the explanations given for why society isn't more affected is that magic is limited. But then they fail to actually limit it. We're just fixing a disconnect.

And yes, you have to consider the ramifications of single uses of powerful powers. Fortunately they're often less.

On the subject of Hero System, I use it as an example precisely because, left to use unregulated, the results will suck. My point is that in designing a magic system for any game, just like carving one out of Hero System, you have to be very careful with how you build it in order that you make it so that the potential effects remain internally consistent with the setting.

In point of fact, when using Hero System I have a ton of other limitations on how spells can be built because it is so problematic. For example, I limit the existence of large, powerful spells in a couple of ways. The system makes them hard for a character to own, and limited in scope when they do. And make the casting harsh enough that it's only done when it's seen as necessary.

That last is important. The feel that I think most people want is to have magic be something that wizards only do as a last resort. That's not often conveyed.

And BTW, endurance is only one way to do it. There are many other better ways. Gandalf didn't do a lot of magic precisely because he was watched by powers greater than himself and use gave away his position. This is another sort of cool limit that one can put in a game, and there are a jillion others.

I was just addressing the one that pertained to the thread.

Mike

Right, folks. Chris is specifically discussing a strain/energy approach to magic. We can all provide a bezillion other ways to approach the issue in play or design, but that's not the topic.

Best,
Ron

Mike Holmes wrote: On the subject of Hero System, I use it as an example precisely because, left to use unregulated, the results will suck. My point is that in designing a magic system for any game, just like carving one out of Hero System, you have to be very careful with how you build it in order that you make it so that the potential effects remain internally consistent with the setting.

Mike Holmes wrote: The system makes them hard for a character to own, and limited in scope when they do. And make the casting harsh enough that it's only done when it's seen as necessary.

That last is important. The feel that I think most people want is to have magic be something that wizards only do as a last resort. That's not often conveyed.

Hmm. I really can't see it being a common idea that magic is more reliable than, say, skill.

Note that we're talking RPGs here. Sure, in ancient literature and legend it might be different. And there's nothing wrong with it being reliable. It's just that there seems to be somewhat of a backlash in RPGs against the idea of reliable magic that you find in (all editions of) D&D.

But, let me restate, then. For those who want magic to be a last resort...see the above.

Mike

She also has sending rituals of significant power, but they are platform magic: they require her to lie on a raised platform in a trance for the duration. Thus, she tends not to use them because they are impractical -- though I suspect there is also a social aspect to it. More overt castings are not frowned upon per se, but they do distance her from others who find it unsettling.

Some time ago I was thinking about "realistic magic"... well probably my very personal idea of what realistic magic should look like.
The definition I found was:
1) the only form of common magic should be very simple spells, of minor effect (and probably such things could be achievable even without magic)
2) legends tell of really powerful magic, and people are really afraid of witches, even if they've never witnessed such powerful magic

A way to enforce such magic by mechanics could be with an exhaustion system in which powerful spells can stop a character from using further magic for weeks or even moths.
Spellcaster characters will avoid using such spells because of the very costraining consequences, but they would be able if they wanted, and from a mechanical POV people have good reasons to fear witches/warlocks...
This could led to a game world where magic is pervasive, but powerful spells are rare enough not to change the "normal" way of things. (But spellcasters can gain much power by fear or persuasion)

A way to enforce such magic by mechanics could be with an exhaustion system in which powerful spells can stop a character from using further magic for weeks or even moths. Spellcaster characters will avoid using such spells because of the very costraining consequences, but they would be able if they wanted

Well it's kinda hard, not knowing what the rest of the system would be like. Ideally it should fit right in.

But let's say that you had a hypothetical Magic Endurance (ME) stat that was unrelated to other stats. Basically when you cast a spell, you use some amount of ME. Then you get back your base ME every time you rest for eight hours, or sleep for four. This rate is penalized for less than optimum resting spots, and maybe boosted for resting in a magical place (think Rivendell).

Now, to make it interesting, Base the ME loss not on the base cost of the spell, but on a calculation instead of the difference. Thus, if a spell costs 13 to cast, you subtract the 10 ME, and lose 3. So now your ME is only 7. Now if you cast the same spell you lose 13-7 = 6 ME for a new total of 1. Cast it yet again, and you lose 12 down to -11. Cast it again, and lose another 23 down to -34. Next time I go down to -81. Next is -174. Call -200 the limit, so this spell can't be cast again. In fact, no spell with a positive cost could be cast at this point.

Now if I go to -174, it's going to take me about 19 rest cycles to get all my ME back (at 10 per cycle to get back to +10). At the very best, that's nearly five days. If you want to allow players to dig bigger holes, just lower the minimum to 500 or 1000. At near 1000 in the hole, it would take nearly a month to get back to full. And note that if you're that low, that it takes you nearly half the time spent descending even getting back to the point where you can cast one spell. Logarithmic that way.

Thus a character under this system would have exponentially more incentive to stop casting spells after each one. I mean cast this spell once a day, and you can rest it off in one night. And you can cast another in an emergency. Cast it six times, as in the example, and it's days before you can cast anything again.

I've made more elegant versions of this before, but this is just the one that comes to ming.

Mike

My idea (which was based on the d20), had a MP (mental point) die, which worked just like the hit die - so it generates your clasic magic points. Spells have two ratings (level and effect), which you can chose to make the spell more or less powerful, and also set your target number for a save versus the spell. The spell costs a number of MP = level, plus any aditional damage taken if you fail the save. A character could spend any number of MP, even more than they have, but excess converts to HP damage and renders the spell caster unconscious. Casting a spell above your level incurs a penalty against the save, and increases the damage if you fail - thus a first level character could cast a tenth level spell, but they'd most likely fail AND kill themselves. But, if desperate enough, any level character could cast whatever spell they needed . . . I'll get my spell ideas on-line someday. Really.

Chris wrote: So an extreme drain/exhaustion. But what the actual system?

I'd be interesed in seeing a few more actual examples bandied about - referencing other systems and discussing theory is great, but does anyone have any rules ideas they'd like to share?

With the possibility of HP burn in exchange for quick power, I was specifically thinking of this scene in Garth Nix's Lirael (i think some of the best fantasy out today is aimed at adolecents). Lirael is a starting mage-type, able to cast basic spells (the magic is actually based around "charter marks", which are, in essence, runes). When corned by this terrible moster, however, she draws on an intense amount of power, and the resulting spell (which does work), causes her to pass out, burns her mouth so she can't speak for two weeks, and nearly kills her. She'd never do it again volentarily, but if its a choice between that and death . . . its like the magical equivilent of adrenaline, where you hear stories of mothers lifting trucks off of their babies. And I'm not sure that having the fire-ball flinging mages is so bad over all - yeah, I've been heaping scorn upon them, but I just don't want them in my saga game. Elsewhere it could be fine. If I don't want fire-balls, I could always just ban fireballs - sorry, doesn't work that way in my world.

Hi there,

I have been remiss in not remembering the early 90s RPG, Sun & Storm, which might serve as the closest model for flexible, energy-based magic in the hobby. "Magic energy" in the game is very much like napalm - no matter what you do with it, it can flare up and cause all sorts of things, and it's costly to the body. What's even better is that the player sets the risk and power factor for these effects at the moment of each casting.

I highly recommend reading it; the whole issue we're discussing will be thrown into finer focus.

Best,
Ron

Okay, I just put my ideas for strain magic up as a Word document - any feedback would be great. There's a disclaimer at the top with the problems I see with it already (very crunchy). Let me know if its really close to anything out there; I don't feel a need to completely recreate the wheel. And with 1440 games listed at rpg-list, thats always a danger.

I've started a list of all the games people keep saying to check out, but we'll see how many my budget can support :)

http://theweekinreview.blogspot.com/v_rpgmagic.doc

Chris wrote: My idea (which was based on the d20), had a MP (mental point) die, which worked just like the hit die - so it generates your clasic magic points...

Hmm. That's all very Rolemaster. Almost identical.

With the sliding scale, the player determines their own risk level as they go, and has to consider each step as one deeper in the hole.