This is the kind of thread I never know whether to put here or in RPG theory. I want to discuss some issues relating to RPG magic systems in a general way. It's a mechanical discussion, and it is for some of my so-called design work, but it's not in the context of a particular game system.

Anyway: the question I want to ask is, how can you create fun, tactical, gamelike challenges for using magic in RPGs?

Some preliminary context for the question. For most of my life until I discovered the internet, I didn't like the D&D magic system. There was (a) the issue of the non-flexibility of individual spells and (b) the fact that I had some bullshit idea in my head about how magic 'really worked' which involved mana point/fatigue systems and so forth. This idea is surprisingly common despite being utterly groundless.

Then I got into a debate with a guy named Kobold Curry Chef about this and he immediately pointed out that these factors actually are, from a certain point of view, a virtue. Mana point/fatigue systems rob the 'game' aspect of D&D of one of its important challenges. Namely, spells in traditional D&D and for wizards in 3e bring about a resource allocation problem: you have to guess what you need and use what you have judiciously. There's a lesser version of this challenge in straight mana/fatigue systems, but it's very, very attenuated, and if you're planning on running 'dungeon'-type adventures one kind of challenge is greatly decreased if you don't have to worry about whether to take an extra Knock or an extra Fireball.

OK. So. There are many good magic systems out there that let you go for as much as you want (free-form, or no power limit, or both) but make some sort of cost (aging, demonic entanglement, potential for suicidal fumbles vastly increased). These systems challenge you in different ways. If you go for too much, or roll badly, or both, there will be bad consequences: the rules let you do anything, or a lot anyway, but put in a self-limiting 'balance mechanism'. So here there's a challenge to think creatively and describe things well, and not to call up what you can't put down, and that sort of thing.

This makes a kind of game out of magic, and does have the virtue that real-world creativity (in finding the minimum amount of spell-force to get the job done) is rewarded by in-game efficacy (assuming the job gets done), which can facilitate competition through magic use. So that's a second option.

A third option is the kind of system where you buy the components for making spells separately and then make spells out of them. The challenge here I suppose would be twofold: resource allocation for components and then creative construction for spells themselves.

But what I'm trying to ask for in this thread is other options, new stuff. Is there some way to make a game out of using magic with new tradeoffs? What are other techniques that have been tried for this? Besides resource allocation, minimal force problems, and building spells out of components in non-obvious ways problems, what other ways have people explored to really make a game out of magic use in RPGs?

(My reading of the forums is that this fits in RPG Theory - I'm sure if I'm right, it'll be moved eventually.)

Besides resource allocation, minimal force and build your own I've also seen TIME as a factor.

As an example, Burning Wheel lists a number of syllables for each of its spells (and, in the advanced version, the components of the build-your-own). Syllables, of course, translate into how long it takes to cast. But then there's the option to take MORE time to cast, in exchange for either (a) making the spell easier to cast, OR (b) making the spell take less of a toll on the body (since in Burning Wheel, casting spells does take a toll on the body).

This could possibly fall under either resource allocation or minimal force, but I think it deserves a category of its own.

Could the requirement of certain behaviors, which may be awkward or disadvantageous in many situations, count as a category? The earliest example is probably the "somatic components" of D&D spells. More recently, the postmodern magic of Unknown Armies seems to be the most explicit connection between behavior and magical power. In UA, the only way to gain the magical resource is to perform actions and avoid taboos of whatever magical school you practice. This weird behavior tends to make characters weird loners, apart from the mainstream public, but has little mechanical effect besides how it pertains to the magical resource.

I've had an idea about mana pools for sometime now (not sure if this has been done before). The majority of game systems make the character the sole resource pool for the magic. What if, depending on the magic "school" it was about "tapping" into different kinds of magic pools. Such as trees in the forest, demons, the earth (like in The Magic Goes Away series), etc.. The mechanics for this would dictate attributes associated to the character's skill in drawing and holding magic, how long they can hold magic and the probabilities/risks for drawing too much or holding mana too long. I can envision a dice pool mechanic ... dice = mana and using the dice to roll for effect / consequences.

Also, I've been thinking that magic could have moral consequences. like in The Song of Ice and Fire books. Could be linked to meta game spiritual attributes.

Another cool idea was this KARMA idea ... http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=8242&highlight=

There is the rock-paper-scissors approach that appears in certain games; I make explicit use of this in Refreshing Rain, and it appears in Mage: The Ascension to an extent.

We've discussed this in some depth (in a thread I don't remember the name of); the point is that your tactical options are significantly different depending upon your opposition (With Mind, you can tell a teleporting Correspondence mage "That building has moved several feet to the left", but he can in turn send your Forces fireballs sailing harmlessly away by redirecting them with cat-sized portals).

Mage is a poor example of this, because with creativity you can break the dominance pattern, but it's significant enough that I thought it would be a useful one.

Well, I'm not convinced of the game value of the D&D memorize method. Perhaps if the spells are secretly written out in some spellbook that players cannot subsequently edit (so they can't cheat) but DMs are not privy to (so they can't simply design encounters around what the player didn't take), there comes an element of mano-a-mano outguessing but really I think its sort of of the "are you the sort of man who'd put the poison in his own glass" variety, which like RPS is really just a guessing game in the end.

I find the second type of magic system, that of free form creativity but try to avoid getting burned to be much more interesting of a challenge to do well.

But in terms of new ideas of spheres to compete in, the only one I can really think of that doesn't fall into one of your broader categories is trying to use the magic without being caught (in the manner of being a salem witch who can get away with practicing without being burned). Mage had an element something like this with Paradox. Even that is of limited game value, however, as the obvious solution (don't use it) is the most boring one, and the second most obvious solution (kill the people who try to stop you) simply circumvents the issue all together.

Really the most comprehensive magic game would be to encorporate a game of Magic:TG into the RPG itself, with deck building and subsequent resource management issues.

Valamir wrote:
But in terms of new ideas of spheres to compete in, the only one I can really think of that doesn't fall into one of your broader categories is trying to use the magic without being caught (in the manner of being a salem witch who can get away with practicing without being burned). Mage had an element something like this with Paradox. Even that is of limited game value, however, as the obvious solution (don't use it) is the most boring one, and the second most obvious solution (kill the people who try to stop you) simply circumvents the issue all together.

Really the most comprehensive magic game would be to encorporate a game of Magic:TG into the RPG itself, with deck building and subsequent resource management issues.

This is a hard and interesting question.

Valamir: I think maybe you've been away from serious D&D playing gamists for too long. The ethos here is that the DM comes to the table with a prepared adventure (which is supposed to be designed to handle any player creativity up front - but what the DM forgets, the attitude is 'my bad'. A recent example: I ran Lord of the Iron Fortress and the final fort was protected against everything but Shadow Walk. My player, who did not know the mod, had that spell because he liked it. So: he got to bust the dungeon and get by everything. That's how it goes) which he doesn't tweak during play, the players get some preliminary info, and then select their spells based on what they think will get them through it best based on that info. If they cheat, you either take them out to the woodshed and beat them up, kill their characters, or just don't invite them back. So that is a legitimate resource allocation challenge of exactly the type you're skeptical about: the DM is supposed to think of everything in advance, and the players are supposed to manage and/or bust it.

OK, so it's not really that great a system in lots of other ways. I like the MtG idea. That's the kind of thing I'm looking for, though: other ways to make a really challenging 'game' out of the whole magic thing in fantasy RPGing.

Umberhulk wrote: I've had an idea about mana pools for sometime now (not sure if this has been done before). The majority of game systems make the character the sole resource pool for the magic. What if, depending on the magic "school" it was about "tapping" into different kinds of magic pools. Such as trees in the forest, demons, the earth (like in The Magic Goes Away series), etc..

The most fun with magic I ever had was playing freeform with no game to the magic at all. Instead, like most other abilities in RPGs, it was simply something the characters could do. The enjoyment came from conflict, problem solving and character interaction.

I guess what I'm saying is this: why make a game of magic at all?

Hey MrJack -

Interestingly, my experience coincides with yours, in that the game I had the most fun with magic in was also nearly completely freeform. The magic was more or less driven by the way it was narrated.

But different people have different kinds of fun, and it was sort of surprising for me at least to realize that there are relatively few interesting 'games' that have been made out of magic use in fantasy RPGs, despite all the other kinds of innovations we've seen in magic rules over the years.

I spend a lot of my time playing with a Gamist bent still, and it would be interesting to have a system that facilitated a really different type of resource allocation or puzzle challenge (or whatever) in play, as opposed to the types we're more familiar with. Magic systems that facilitate and reward player creativity are cool too, and I wouldn't mind an aspect of that with the 'game' part, but I'm still looking to make a new kind of game out of magic. So that's the reason for the thread.

Ok, I understand.

I think it depends on what kind of game your writing in a game where most everyone has magic I think there's good potential for a heavily tactical spell-counterspell dueling system (think TROS combat but done for magic).

Valamir: I think maybe you've been away from serious D&D playing gamists for too long. The ethos here is that the DM comes to the table with a prepared adventure (which is supposed to be designed to handle any player creativity up front - but what the DM forgets, the attitude is 'my bad'.

Actually playing a game of MtG as part of an RPG sounds really cumbersome to me. But it's also a great spark.

I'm imagining a much quicker to resolve card game that ends up fitting between the "memorize your spells in advance" and the "I have mana that I can work with in these ways" models.

Each card represents a kind of magical component: a gesture, a word of power, a material, a famed occult relic or whatever. There are a whole slew of general cards that anyone can access when building their deck for the day (or whatever), or maybe certain schools of magic have access only to a subset of these cards. And there are or could be unique cards that represent special powers, gifts, artifacts or whatever that can only exist in the deck of a certain player.

Each card lists either the types of cards that can trump them or the types of cards that they trump. Then when a magical task is taken up, players take turns playing cards until one can't trump the other. This easily lends itself to the prototypical magical duel, but it's a little harder to figure out how casting a "teleport" spell would be handled. Maybe the GM plays a deck for the environment? Maybe a certain combination of cards has to be discarded from the deck?

As the germ of an idea, this allows for multiple layers of complexity in implementation. Do cards have point values in addition to type? Are there multiple dimensions of trump? (i.e. might a card representing the power word FIRE be trumped either by water or a "louder" power word?) How many different "food chains" are intermingling and crossing over in the deck? Are there cards that can't be trumped? Is the duel simply played until one player can't play a "better" card or is it played in rounds where the number of captured cards or hands is what matters?

Now that I've gotten to the end of this idea it's reminding me of the Doris and Frank card game Frank's Zoo.

Chris

Calithena wrote: Some preliminary context for the question. For most of my life until I discovered the internet, I didn't like the D&D magic system. There was (a) the issue of the non-flexibility of individual spells and (b) the fact that I had some bullshit idea in my head about how magic 'really worked' which involved mana point/fatigue systems and so forth. This idea is surprisingly common despite being utterly groundless.
A third option is the kind of system where you buy the components for making spells separately and then make spells out of them. The challenge here I suppose would be twofold: resource allocation for components and then creative construction for spells themselves.

First let me make a brief aside on Valamir's objection to the D&D spell system. Sean is right that the referee is expected to prepare the adventure prior to having any knowledge of the character's abilities; my players have that confidence in me that my D&D adventures were prepared long before their characters were involved, so nothing was done "for them" or "against them".

There's another aspect that has been missed, though. Part of the challenge is not whether you can guess what spells the referee has planned for, but whether you can solve whatever problems you face with the spells you have. The Fly spell is mentioned; but when faced with that problem, could you find a way to solve it with a teleport, featherfall, or spider climb, or whatever spells you happen to have in your arsenal? Even a Tie cantrip and a good throw with a piece of rope might be the solution to the problem. Thus it isn't really "guessing what spells I'll need" but more "selecting those spells which will be most useful in solving the problems we might encounter" and then figuring out how to use them when the problem arises.

If you've never been in play when a player finds an entirely novel use for a spell that solves a problem for which another spell was the obvious solution, you probably missed a lot of the fun of the game.

-----

Now, on to the question.

Multiverser might be one of those

about which you wrote: good magic systems out there that let you go for as much as you want (free-form, or no power limit, or both) but make some sort of cost (aging, demonic entanglement, potential for suicidal fumbles vastly increased).

MJ wrote: "If you've never been in play when a player finds an entirely novel use for a spell that solves a problem for which another spell was the obvious solution, you probably missed a lot of the fun of the game."

I agree. But this kind of creativity goes for spontaneous magic systems too, albeit it's somewhat different (thinking of appropriate spell when you can think of any vs. thinking of appropriate use for fixed spell). What you can do with zero level Mage Hand in 3e is positively criminal.

There are a lot of great suggestions on this thread. One that hasn't been mentioned is the surreal magic system of Reve, where you have to connect places in the dragon's dream in order to cast spells.

What I'm really looking for is a whole other kind of game to play with magic, though. The card thing would be cool - the cards would formalize an 'element' system so you would combine 'hands' into spells. You could even have a certain number of cards of certain types at any given level. Or you could 'draw' cards as local mana from your local environment. Regular variable replenishment like that might be a way to make a genuinely different form of magic.

I don't know. I like the resource allocation challenge of old D&D and of Vancian magic generally. I also like the creative possibilities of free-form magic. I also like the challenge of 'element combination' systems, of which Multiverser's sounds like another good one.

But what I'm really wondering about right now is a whole new sort of game-challenge to get out of a magic system. Insofar as I have my own ideas about this, something having to do with 'local mana' so you get to the right place to cast the right spell, but you have some control over how you get there and what kinds of places are going to be available, is vaguely percolating in my mind. But what I'm really looking to do is loot the groupmind for new ideas on the problem in general.

Hm.... I think you could accomplish that with that "wheel" thing that Burning Wheel purportedly has (I don't actually own it, so I'm not certain of this...)

The wheel, as far as I can determine, has several nested dials which determine such things as the magical source of the effect, the effect itself, its composition, its range and duration, etc.

So, suppose that each location has a "default" wheel setting, and all magicians have an innate ability to detect the wheel setting of an area.

Magic could consist of rotating the dials to get your desired effects; maybe you could randomize how far you're allowed to rotate the dials, and you can only turn inner dials once the outer dials have been set to your desired effect. You could possibly have some biasing mechanic that makes you better at manipulating particular dials, or predisposes you to turning them towards certain effects. Then magic becomes a game of balancing the area's influence against your own mystical biases.

The wholly diceless magic system in Greg Porter's game Epiphany makes use of a random draw from a resource pool to determine the type of mana immediately available available to a spellcaster (ala Magic: the Gathering). Players choose spells to use based on the amount and flavor of mana they have available.

Paul

I can't help but think that magick rules are very applicable to the whole GNS division. The DnD method, which they stole from the Wizard of Earthsea novels, is great for gamist purposes ie: is this balanced for fair and competative play. Once you begin to want a different style of play, it becomes grossly unsatisfying. And then you ask either A) what is more "realistic" or B) what would tell a cool story. Which are we shooting for Calithena?

Calithena wrote: Insofar as I have my own ideas about this, something having to do with 'local mana' so you get to the right place to cast the right spell, but you have some control over how you get there and what kinds of places are going to be available, is vaguely percolating in my mind.