The Forge Archives

Well I guess I will  be the 1st to start the thread on this weekend's A Gazebo of Games in the indie designer perspective.
1st I will say it was good to see the familiar faces, Luke and Brennon are always a welcome sight and to my misfortune I did not get to meet any of the other Indie designers there.
As usual, Burning Wheel had it's demos and as always feed back from those I spoke too gave it thumbs up, hell I was there when some con goer bought 2 copied from Luke. The Man is amazing and as usual I took another piece of advice to heart (good Advice), but thats for a later thread. Bulldogs! from what I gathered was hot an cold, but Brennon said he did manage to get 2 of his Demos off?
Bad Muthas was pretty dead, but I think thats partly my fault for not promoting like I should.
I missed the chance to meet Michael M., but hope that the next Indie PRG meet, I will not.
Kill Puppies for Satan went awsome, I was running a game in the next room and all I heard was the laughter and Fun.

All and All it was a good show, I think we as as the Indie Designers need to try and unite a little better to get some better promotion within the conventions, this might help our numbers.
Again I feel it was more of a problem with he numbers of people who came to Roleplay over Boardgaming. Granted there were a good number of RPGers but alot if them as usual flocked to the more popular titles and or GM's. Granted RPG's are a bit of a Commitment and take time, so I'm sure people rather dedicate the time to an old fave than try something new. It's a matter of making people want to try out a new game, getting them excited about it and showing them the best time in the world when running it.
Games like Burning Wheel do well because of the Love of it's creator, Games like Kill Puppies for Satan get crowds from the Shock value and Concept. Where does that leave the rest of us? The BW Guru pointed out that more time needs to be put into the game, and that one needs to drop all the other games for awhile to get things done (Not a quote but the over all message I got), and this is true, if i'm running around being a But boy for other companies, how an I going to finish my own work?
I have a few ideas of some things that could help us in the long run, I'm gonna shoot michael an Email first before posting the ideas, just to make sure they don't sound too insane =)

Hi, Dregg.

I was planning an After Action Report kind of post on the drive home, but RL commitments kept me from posting it yesterday. For those of you in the peanut gallery, this refers to the "Indie showcase" that we put together for A Gazebo of Games, a small-to-medium-size gaming convention in New Jersey. The prep thread is Indie gaming at A Gazebo of Games

First question: How did we do?

I was scheduled to run Sorcerer and FVLMINATA once each, and My Life with Master twice. The Sorcerer and FVL got enough players (I most unfortunately had to send folks away from Sorcerer because I didn't have enough characters), and MLwM got enough players once, although no one showed up at midnight.

Player Count: 4 for Sorcerer (although 7 wanted to play) 3 for FVL, and 3 for MLwM.

Dregg, I'm sorry to hear that Bad Muthas didn't go off--and also that we didn't get to meek face to face.

I know Chris only got 1 player for his Saturday Universalis game, but I think he had 2 or 3 on Sunday when we left.

Luke, I know your Kill Puppies game was a rousing success, but how did BW go?

I never managed to learn too much about Bulldogs!, so I don't know whether things went well for them.

The second portion of Question 1 is something only Luke can answer: Were sales the same, better, or worse than "normal" for a convention of this size. What I mean is, did it seem to you that the actual play increased sales of the games played?

Question 2: Was this worthwhile?

My initial goal when putting this thing together was to get more people to actually play indie games at this con, by scheduling them in such a way that there was as little conflict between games as possible, and also to create a "Unified Front" of promotion (i.e. rather than a bunch of guys saying "play my game" have a bunch of guys saying "play our games").

I think the non-competition thing worked pretty well, although the after-the-fact addition of Bulldogs to the roster undermined that goal. (FWIW, Dregg, I think Saturday afternoon is always a dry spot at Gazebo, because Trey runs her very popular Nobilis game, and allows 8-10 players in it).

The Unified front thing did not work so well, and some of that was my fault. I thought I had asked the Gazebo folks to send me info about getting a listing in the program book, but then my computer got fried, and neither they nor I followed up on that. In retrospect, I should have posted flyers on the walls and put handouts on the freebie table. I don't know if either would have helped, but I should have tried.

Question 3: Should we try this again? If so, what should we do differently?

Well, guys, what do you think?

http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=11042 is part of my response to Michael's Post.

Should we do this again?
Hell Yes!
This is a formula that is going to take time to spearhead and get put into motion, with every con we attenpt an "Indie Extravaganza" we get closer to finding out the right mix and balance to get this to be a successful project.
We are not along in this, there are many of us, but in that same vein we have to try and help in one way or another to make this happen. If you cannot make a con, see if you can get another Forger to run it for you. This is the easiest way, and makes sense. but in that same breath realise that this person who is demong for you is using his/her time as well and possibly throwing them a copy of the rules, a suppliment or even buying the fellow lunch would be a nice gesture on the part of the designer.
This is not manditory, but from someone who does demos for Atlas and SJ Games, I would rather help out the company who is going to going to give me tools to work with than the company who would hand me a popcicle stick to builf them a new house and matching 2 car garage.

I personaly an going to "Adopt" an Indie System to learn and take with me to conventions to run. I would like to see this done more by other indie designers. Not only does it help another, but it breaks up the routine that can get borning sometimes.

Luke's Lollagazebo Wrap Up: Indie Games.

Given the challenges of this con, I think we did extremely well. Attendance was low and we were in stiff competition with boardgames, LARPs and RPGAs. Still, as Mike pointed out, we had most of our games go off.

Could it have been better organized? Absolutely. Even after our pleas and explanations here, I don't think the con organizers really understood what we were after -- Mike's Unified Front. Though they billed us as the  Indie Games Extravaganza we were not all in one location and were bounced table to table, session to session. We needed (and could have occupied) a room (or signifigant part thereof) to ourselves.

So the real question: Does the dealer/demo model work? Yes. And I say this unequivocally. Just having these games being played and talked about at the con generates sales at the dealers table. Having them being played nets another sale or two.

Also, NO ONE at any of the cons I have been to (barring the biggies) carries your stuff. Our table literally has a unique assortment of games, t-shirts and comics. We attract business based on that alone.

Sales:
Burning Wheel: 6 (plus 6 bought by a retailer at the con at wholesale)
Sorcerer Supplements: 5
Uni: 2
Kill Puppies for Satan: 2 (one to Mike, so I don't know if that counts)
BW Custom Dice: 2 sets (again, Mike bought one, so I don't know if that counts).
Fvlminata: 1 (yay! first sale at a con by me. of course it was to my friend).
Inspectres: 1
Sorcerer: 1

plus we had at least four requests for My Life with Master which, due to an unfortunate postal mishap, we didn't have.

So all in all, for an under-attended con, I think we did well.

-L

I also bought Fvlminata, but I don't know if that counts. :)

I managed to pull off two of three scheduled sessions of Bulldogs!, but it was a serious scrape to gather the players. Friday, the RPG room was dead, and I ended up running Bulldogs! for the two other GMs who had no players show, plus the one actual player who came by. This was a great deal of fun, and did generate interest in the game. Saturday afternoon was a no-go, and Saturday night I had one player who came by for Bulldogs!. When no-one else showed, she called her husband and brought in the whole family, and I got my only sale out of it.

All-in-all, I was disappointed with the turnout, but I also had no promotion at the con apart from the scheduling of the sessions.

I do want to apologize for possible cross-purposes with the Indie Extravaganza. I go to a lot of local cons and know Luke, Dregg, and others, but I have been a bit standoffish with Forge-related indie planning since Bulldogs! is a d20 game, mostly because I am not sure how that fits in with the Forge game design philosophy (or rather I am pretty sure it doesn't fit here). Really, I've been neglecting these boards a bit because of this and I wasn't really in on the whole AGOG thing.

I am definitely open to further collaboration and mutual assistance, and I am a fan of many of the quality games that the designers on these boards have created.

I was one of the requests for My Life With Master, and was one of the clumsy people who built a wall with our banner between our two booths.  It looked like you were doiong well.  There always seemed to be people at your booth, and your demos, when I passed by, seemed well attended.

Alas, my LARPs both only got one person -- the same person, but I probably could have promoted them better.

Playwise, it was a great weekend for Indie games, at least from my perspective. I got to play Sorcerer, Burning Wheel, and kill puppies for satan. Also, Mike M.  ran a pick-up game of InSpectres for Luke, Chris Weeks, myself and one other.

As usual, from my limited experience, the con setup was not that conducive to RPGs, in that the RPG area was segregated from the rest of the con. The only reason to go anywhere near the RPG area was if you had a game scheduled, making it very difficult to just grab passersby for a game.

I know that Aaron (Luke's partner-in-crime, who manned the Nerdnyc.com/Burning Wheel table in the vendor room) did send a few people upstairs to try out games that were available at the table.

In any case, the games were all a blast. The only disappointing play experience I had during the con was in the one non-indie game I played.

Just thought I'd chime in here...

I attended the con and had the chance to meet some Forge folks. I'm glad I got to put some faces to the posters here, and they all seemed like stand-up guys (even if Thor did ground my character in a game of Sorcerer).       :-)

I don't know how much of the low attendence was due to lack of promotion. It always seems to me that the high attendence games are due to one person who likes the system or GM convincing a few of his friends to try it out. Having signs up apparently did zip for Divus Ex Norse (run by a friend of mine), and most of the players were friends of those who were already playing, as far as I could tell. As to putting flyers on the freebie table...well, I didn't even check that table out until the end of the con. But again, that's just me.

And I did get a chance to play this Universalis game I'd heard so much about. Truth be told, I was very down on the idea of a GM-less game, and couldn't see how it would work it practice. Well...wow...I was so wrong. This is one impressive game, and it really opened my mind up to other possibilities. Kudos to the designers.

Anyway, I was very glad to see the Forge making an appearance at a convention that is literally just down the street from me. I couldn't make it to all the indie games that I wanted to (sorry for flaking on the midnight MLwM game, Mike), but I enjoyed the ones I played in.

Quote from: Andrew MorrisJust thought I'd chime in here...

I attended the con and had the chance to meet some Forge folks. I'm glad I got to put some faces to the posters here, and they all seemed like stand-up guys (even if Thor did ground my character in a game of Sorcerer).       :-)

Hey Andrew! Good to see you. I'm going to try to write an Actual Play of that Sorcerer session, once Mike sends me a copy of all the character sheets.

Hey Thor!

I still say your name is too cool to be real, by the way. If you have any questions when writing up the session, shoot me an email or something and I'll try to answer.

Quote from: Andrew MorrisHey Thor!

I still say your name is too cool to be real, by the way. If you have any questions when writing up the session, shoot me an email or something and I'll try to answer.

Will do. Especially if you PM me your e-mail address. ;)

Quote from: Andrew MorrisHey Thor!

I still say your name is too cool to be real, by the way. If you have any questions when writing up the session, shoot me an email or something and I'll try to answer.

Andrew,

I was also in that Sorcerer game (I played Matthew Cain), and I have to say again how much you rocked as the daughter of Thor's character. If I ever run a Buffy demo, and you play, please play Buffy :-)

To keep on topic though: I had fun playing Sorcerer with Mike (and his pickup game of Inspectres; gee Thor, did you forget I post here too?), had a blast with Burning Wheel, but Luke's Kill Puppies for Satan game is not something I will likely get over for some time. Between me and this one other guy, I think we had the rest of the participants in stitches with out antics, especially once we had summoned demons to do our bidding.

Just because I got to play Sorcerer, Inspectres and Kill Puppies, as well as finally getting to play All Flesh Must Be Eaten and Angel (games I've run and playtest for, but have never gotten to actually play except when I gm) made it worth it for me to go.

Plus now I replaced the copy of BW I gave to a friend as a gift, and finally got Sex & Sorcery, so I was happy.

Heya urbwar (uhm...can't remember your real name, sorry)-

Didn't realize you were also a member of the Forge...glad to meet you online, though.

As to my playing the cheerleader character, that's what I get for letting everyone else pick first. Glad you thought I did a good job with it, though. Who'd have thought a hairy Scottish dude could pull off playing a bitchy, manipulative, blonde cheerleader? Certainly not me.    :-)    

Actually, it's more than a little disturbing, when you think about it...

Anyway, yes....getting back to the point of this thread:

The overall Forge presence was good, but not great. I'd start with finding out about getting a full page ad in the event listing book. Now, I know, money's a problem for stuff like this, but they would probably be willing to trade for volunteer time. It might be worthwhile to see. I volunteer myself to donate time on behalf of the Forge. I only live 2.55 miles away from the convention, so it's not that hard for me to drag my ass there, even at 9:00 a.m. Another idea is to see if you could get a separate section, like the RPGA has.

As to individual games, I only got to play in Sorcerer and Universalis, but I had a blast at both games. Mike, I know the three people you had to turn away for not signing up in advance, so I made sure to mock them mercilessly in an effort to get them to sign up early next time. I expected to enjoy Sorcerer, and did. I didn't expect to enjoy Universalis, but I did. The only down side was common to both games: the set-up and rules explanations were too long and detailed. I think both games have rules that are easy enough to pick up by watching or doing them once or twice. A basic "Here's the world/game concept, let's go" approach might be better.

I didn't get to play My Life With Master at midnight on Friday, because...well, because it ran until 4:00 a.m., fer cryin out loud. And apparently, I turn into a pumpkin at midnight. The 9:00 a.m. game the next morning was a no-go, because Mike Lake was running a game then, and any game he runs gets priority over anything else.

In the end, though, it was great to have a chance to play some indie games and meet some people from the Forge. I definitely think it should happen at future cons. I'm willing to help out, where possible.

I'm not an indie game designer, but I was at AGOG.  Played 6 rpgs,
1 was ok, 3 were good, 2 were very good.  Which seemed like a
pretty good ratio to me.   The two really good times were The Gift (I was the half-elven ranger being elvier-than-thou to make up for his background) and Fvlminata (Moderatus), so I thought Indies had a good showing.  And the gamers at the Indie games seemed like the ones I would hope would be at the games I played at in the future.  

So, while it may not have been a really positive con from your points of view, as a game getting back into playing after years of being out of the hobby, I thought it showed a lot of promise.

Doug

Quote from: Michael S. Miller
(FWIW, Dregg, I think Saturday afternoon is always a dry spot at Gazebo, because Trey runs her very popular Nobilis game, and allows 8-10 players in it).

I'm trying not to do that anymore - at first it was very flattering, and as a GM, I like to try and accomodate people. But it doesn't help the game I'm running, nor does it help the games around me. This time it was bid for 6, and ran with 7 (the last person was my RPG Coordinator, Liz, who I couldn't really turn away). I did turn away a couple of others who didn't have tickets.

Quote from: Michael S. Miller
I thought I had asked the Gazebo folks to send me info about getting a listing in the program book, but then my computer got fried, and neither they nor I followed up on that.

I don't recall that request, but I may have missed it. I'll happily send you the specs for future events if you like.

-Trey