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Hello,

My gaming group has decided to give NAR a try, as it sounds very appealing to most of us. In Sorcerer, and other sorces, they list the optimal size group around 3-4 players, we have 6. Is this too many players to handle? Given that I will GM a NAR campaign for the first time, would such a large group be unwise?

I am also wondering how people organize their first run? My players asked for demo adventures and pre-gens, just to get a feel for what NAR is, and while I own all the Sorcerer supplements, and have some material to pull from, I believe we'd get the most out of it by doing everything the right (hard?) way. What are the suggestions of more experienced Sorcerer GMs?

Looking forward to some helpful pointers,

Yokiboy

Quote from: YokiboyHello,

My gaming group has decided to give NAR a try, as it sounds very appealing to most of us. In Sorcerer, and other sorces, they list the optimal size group around 3-4 players, we have 6. Is this too many players to handle? Given that I will GM a NAR campaign for the first time, would such a large group be unwise?

Well, I just finished running my first Sorcerer game last week, so this isn't an expert opinion, but it is one of someone in close to the same place you were.

I would not run it with 6 people! I ran my game with three people, and I though four might be pushing it - and this was a game of Charnel Gods were the Demons were all objects and there was considerable less interaction with them because of the typical forms of communication not being possible.

I would instead urge you to run two games of three people each. Perhaps an experienced GM will need it, but going through the kickers and bangs and giving each player their time is going to be very, very, very difficult for most people I would imagine, especially a first time Sorcerer GM. It was great fun, but it was quite challenging with three people.

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I am also wondering how people organize their first run? My players asked for demo adventures and pre-gens, just to get a feel for what NAR is, and while I own all the Sorcerer supplements, and have some material to pull from, I believe we'd get the most out of it by doing everything the right (hard?) way. What are the suggestions of more experienced Sorcerer GMs?

Again, from a newly minted Sorcerer GM, I would not run a demo adventure or pre-gens, the story should be the players, so instead come up with a theme or a setting of interest, develop some really great and atmospheric descriptors for that session and really work through the characters with each player.

Sorcerer works because its each player playing the character and story they want - that's a bit more difficult with a pre-gen.

But I'm less experienced than a lot of other people here, so I'd be curious to hear their opinions on this as well.

Thanks for the feedback Old_Scratch, I appreciate it greatly!

Quote from: Old_ScratchI would not run it with 6 people! <snip>

I would instead urge you to run two games of three people each. Perhaps an experienced GM will need it, but going through the kickers and bangs and giving each player their time is going to be very, very, very difficult for most people I would imagine, especially a first time Sorcerer GM. It was great fun, but it was quite challenging with three people.

I suggested coming up with a backstory together, and then running the first session twice, with half the group each time. This based on the fact that some might not actually enjoy NAR play. I have a hardcore SIM'er in my group, and another that doesn't know that there's any other way to game but GAM.

By running the session twice, we could compare the outcomes, discuss things and see if anyone wants to drop out voluntarily.

Quote from: Old_ScratchAgain, from a newly minted Sorcerer GM, I would not run a demo adventure or pre-gens, the story should be the players, so instead come up with a theme or a setting of interest, develop some really great and atmospheric descriptors for that session and really work through the characters with each player.

Sorcerer works because its each player playing the character and story they want - that's a bit more difficult with a pre-gen.

This was my feeling also, and I think you're right.


How did you handle Bangs for your first time out playing Sorcerer? Did you find that they were easy enough to come up with based on the campaing planning and character design phase? What about during play, did you end up having to toss some Bangs and improvise others, how did that go?

TTFN,

Yokiboy

Quote from: YokiboyThanks for the feedback Old_Scratch, I appreciate it greatly!

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By running the session twice, we could compare the outcomes, discuss things and see if anyone wants to drop out voluntarily.

Yes, that's probably the best session - although I wouldn't quite run the *same* session. Same setting, but different characters and bangs for the same setting. Just personal preference though.

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This was my feeling also, and I think you're right.

By setting up your own setting you're able to draw upon your own interests and your knowledge of the group and their interests. I think this does a lot to playing up the strengths of Sorcerer.

So what did you have in mind?

May I suggest you peruse some of the actual play sorcerer threads? I've got a Charnel Gods thread that goes all the way from the first ideas of a game to what's going on now in it. Judd/Paka has some really great threads as well, the Ghost City Chinese game and the Mu's Bed are must reads as is School Age Sorcerers.

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How did you handle Bangs for your first time out playing Sorcerer?

I sat down, thought of the character and wrote out a series of Bangs early on, and then went over them a couple of days later. Those were the ones based on the characters. Then I looked at the setting and thought about what I wanted thematically and which character is most appropriate for the game. I also thought of some moral issues I'd be curious in seeing addressed and to whom to apply them. Write them all down! Don't just hope you remember them, you get a bang, write it down and if you can, offer a few variations or twists on it - players are unpredictable. After the first session, you're able to draw on more than 1) kickers 2) knowledge of player interests 3) character archetype 4) GM's interests 5) moral issues 6) campaign or game theme-based Bangs by working off of the characters developing stories.

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Did you find that they were easy enough to come up with based on the campaing planning and character design phase?

Yes, I found it very easy to come up with some of them. I really wanted a list of about twenty of them, but only five or so really came up. But that was sufficient.

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What about during play, did you end up having to toss some Bangs and improvise others, how did that go?

Again, if you look at Charnel Gods Actual Play thread I cover some of this. One player I hardly had to use any Bangs - the player was running their story full steam and carrying out his own agenda and telling the story he wanted to play, and I only introduced two bangs. For another player, I totally fumbled one of my favorite bangs, and I had to make a bang up on the fly when the character surprised me with something I wasn't even remotely suspecting. The last player was less proactive, and I ended up using five bangs or so and squandering my supply of them. I really have to write some more up this session.

So the number of bangs varied upon player, some needed to be invented on the spot or tweaked, some didn't work out, and some stories end up progressing on their own with only the occassional odd bang thrown in.

You really have to be flexible...

Quote from: Old_ScratchYes, that's probably the best session - although I wouldn't quite run the *same* session. Same setting, but different characters and bangs for the same setting. Just personal preference though.

Oh I quite agree, that is what I intended to do.

Quote from: Old_ScratchBy setting up your own setting you're able to draw upon your own interests and your knowledge of the group and their interests. I think this does a lot to playing up the strengths of Sorcerer.

So what did you have in mind?

We all agreed that we wanted something sort of creepy, ala Silence of the Lambs or surreal like Twin Peaks. I think Sorcerer would be able to handle this quite well, but we have no more specifics than that. My group are old-school D&D/AD&D/now 3E players, that are very hesistant to try anything else.

Quote from: Old_ScratchMay I suggest you peruse some of the actual play sorcerer threads? I've got a Charnel Gods thread that goes all the way from the first ideas of a game to what's going on now in it. Judd/Paka has some really great threads as well, the Ghost City Chinese game and the Mu's Bed are must reads as is School Age Sorcerers.

That is a very good idea, I'll see if I can find some of those threads. Thanks for the tip.

Quote from: Old_ScratchI sat down, thought of the character and wrote out a series of Bangs early on, and then went over them a couple of days later. Those were the ones based on the characters. Then I looked at the setting and thought about what I wanted thematically and which character is most appropriate for the game. I also thought of some moral issues I'd be curious in seeing addressed and to whom to apply them. Write them all down! Don't just hope you remember them, you get a bang, write it down and if you can, offer a few variations or twists on it - players are unpredictable. After the first session, you're able to draw on more than 1) kickers 2) knowledge of player interests 3) character archetype 4) GM's interests 5) moral issues 6) campaign or game theme-based Bangs by working off of the characters developing stories.

Alright, this is pretty much was I was thinking of doing, we actually discussed Premise a bit too, some interesting ones that came up were "how far will you go to keep a secret?" and "when is what's good for the group more important than the individual". So my players do have a few ideas I can work with, and I'm sure once we discuss setting, theme and design the characters we'll have tons more ideas.

Quote from: Old_ScratchYes, I found it very easy to come up with some of them. I really wanted a list of about twenty of them, but only five or so really came up. But that was sufficient.

Do you mean that about 5 Bangs total were used in your first session, or is that 5 per character? Did you have a hard time giving everyone equal center-stage opportunity?

Quote from: Old_ScratchAgain, if you look at Charnel Gods Actual Play thread I cover some of this. One player I hardly had to use any Bangs - the player was running their story full steam and carrying out his own agenda and telling the story he wanted to play, and I only introduced two bangs. For another player, I totally fumbled one of my favorite bangs, and I had to make a bang up on the fly when the character surprised me with something I wasn't even remotely suspecting. The last player was less proactive, and I ended up using five bangs or so and squandering my supply of them. I really have to write some more up this session.

So the number of bangs varied upon player, some needed to be invented on the spot or tweaked, some didn't work out, and some stories end up progressing on their own with only the occassional odd bang thrown in.

You really have to be flexible...

Alright, that answered my previous question. Thanks for helping me out.

TTFN,

Yokiboy

QuoteWe all agreed that we wanted something sort of creepy, ala Silence of the Lambs or surreal like Twin Peaks. I think Sorcerer would be able to handle this quite well, but we have no more specifics than that. My group are old-school D&D/AD&D/now 3E players, that are very hesistant to try anything else.

Sounds great. Creepy then? I take it you don't want traditional demons ala Faust then? So what are the demons? Inner demons that haunt the characters? Are they demons that one has become intertwined with and must serve to stay alive (as in The Ring)? Are they the subconscious evil entities that one does not have control of (Perhaps like the Shining? Past selves, or kindred spirits?) Are they wierd cosmic archetypes that the players try to control but the archetypes themselves try to control the characters (Tim Powers Last Call)? Are they wierd creepy ghosts? Or since you mentioned Silence of the Lambs - maybe the demons are passers that are serial killers - almost every serial killer in history has been a demon let loose in the world - and when caught, the demons (or perhaps their sorcerers, set up as patsies) are incarcerated and the other lives to carry out their misdeeds - imagine Hannibal Lector as your demon!

Creepiness? What kind of Humanity are you looking for - I would venture to guess that even though it should be connected to the above, it might be your connection to the mundane shared world that everyone else has... A dual definition of humanity might work as well.

I think those are the two central questions: What is humanity and what exactly are the demons?

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Do you mean that about 5 Bangs total were used in your first session, or is that 5 per character? Did you have a hard time giving everyone equal center-stage opportunity?

Two bangs for one player, three bangs for another, and five bangs for the last. No, I had no problem getting all the players in. If you check out the Charnel Gods write up in the Actual Play you can see that the one session, written up in detail, covered an awful lot of ground!

If you want to hash some ideas out in one of these threads you've started, I'd love to see the ideas you're bouncing around.

Quote from: Old_ScratchOr since you mentioned Silence of the Lambs - maybe the demons are passers that are serial killers - almost every serial killer in history has been a demon let loose in the world - and when caught, the demons (or perhaps their sorcerers, set up as patsies) are incarcerated and the other lives to carry out their misdeeds - imagine Hannibal Lector as your demon!

This made me think of a kind of cool idea.  Sorcerers are generally mental health professionals and demons are other peoples' demons.  That is, some people are afflicted by mental problems -- demons.  Sorcerers can help them with their demons via simple councilling (Lore) or by actually directly interacting with the demons through rituals dressed up as radical psychiatric (or other) treatment.  Lector isn't a demon.  He's one of the greatest sorcerers alive...but his work has taken a certain toll.

You can get all the creepy you want (and then some) by taking a realistic look at modern or historical mental health practices and the setting has dramatic opportunity for altruism gone awry.

But what's humanity?  It seems natural to tie it to sanity in some way, but what I'm really thinking is whatever the opposite of sociopathy would be called.  Sort of a social empathy thing.  Or a measure of how well you work and play with others.

Has this been done?  I know there was a thread some time ago, maybe last fall, discussing sorcerers being mental health inmates.

Chris

I'm a mental health worker IRL and I've thought a lot about this idea.  Maybe we should take it to a new thread, tho?

Quote from: Old_ScratchSounds great. Creepy then? I take it you don't want traditional demons ala Faust then? So what are the demons? Inner demons that haunt the characters? Are they demons that one has become intertwined with and must serve to stay alive (as in The Ring)? Are they the subconscious evil entities that one does not have control of (Perhaps like the Shining? Past selves, or kindred spirits?) Are they wierd cosmic archetypes that the players try to control but the archetypes themselves try to control the characters (Tim Powers Last Call)? Are they wierd creepy ghosts? Or since you mentioned Silence of the Lambs - maybe the demons are passers that are serial killers - almost every serial killer in history has been a demon let loose in the world - and when caught, the demons (or perhaps their sorcerers, set up as patsies) are incarcerated and the other lives to carry out their misdeeds - imagine Hannibal Lector as your demon!

Creepiness? What kind of Humanity are you looking for - I would venture to guess that even though it should be connected to the above, it might be your connection to the mundane shared world that everyone else has... A dual definition of humanity might work as well.

I think those are the two central questions: What is humanity and what exactly are the demons?

We have yet to define this, but I figure I should have a few examples ready for my group, so they can get to character gen much faster. What we did discuss was your first Demon option, having them be Inner Demons, but I don't want to miss out on Passers though, and am not sure how they'd fit in with that idea...

As relates to Humanity everyone enjoyed the dual definition idea. I used the familiar Good vs Evil and Law vs Chaos struggle of D&D fame as the example of how this works (I actually think this would be cool to use as the basis for a Sword & Sorcery campaign). We thought that Empathy should be one part of the definition, but I think that's mainly due to our years of playing Cyberpunk 2020. I would like Humanity to be your Soul, love the Preacher comic books from Vertigo, and will re-read Sorcerer's Soul for some ideas.

Quote from: Old_ScratchTwo bangs for one player, three bangs for another, and five bangs for the last. No, I had no problem getting all the players in. If you check out the Charnel Gods write up in the Actual Play you can see that the one session, written up in detail, covered an awful lot of ground!

If you want to hash some ideas out in one of these threads you've started, I'd love to see the ideas you're bouncing around.

I'm guessing I should check out that Charnel Gods write up...  :D


Btw, the "Mental Health" ideas discussed are very interesting. This could work well for our Silence of the Lambs creepiness that we're after, and we did already discuss using inner demons. Perhaps some people can only be redeemed by binding their inner demon, but then you curse yourself in the process... Hmmm, I really like this idea.  :)

Thanks,

Yokiboy

For ideas about the mental health angle, check out this thread: http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=7974

Mike

Quote from: Yokiboy
We have yet to define this, but I figure I should have a few examples ready for my group, so they can get to character gen much faster. What we did discuss was your first Demon option, having them be Inner Demons, but I don't want to miss out on Passers though, and am not sure how they'd fit in with that idea...

Have 'em both!

As the Inner Demons needs get met, it becomes more powerful, and as it becomes more powerful, it begins to appear in the real world, evolving from Parasite into Passer.

Say, for example, when a player's humanity drops below the demon's power, it becomes more powerful and can begin to appear and evolve outside. When Humanity gets to 1 or when the Power becomes five or seven or some agreed upon benchmark than it becomes a Passer and takes a place in the world, a dark child born of the monstrous needs of the player character.

As for Inner Demons - you might want to consider what this is.

Are we talking pop-psychology like Norman Bates in Psycho? The alter-ego of the PC, like Tyler Durden in Fight Club? Are we talking about a demonic thought child residing in the mind, perhaps like in that awful J Lo movie about the Cell or whatever?

Does the demon exist solely in the player's mind? If the player dies, does the demon die? Or does the demon live in a psychically unified sub-conscious mind shared by all humans, a dark otherworld of the mind where the demon approaches and attaches to the character. In this case, the demon can be the start of the problem, the source of addictions, rather than the result of it.

Is it going to be a game of inner angst and battling the bottle, your alcholism that allows you strange mystical powers (cf dipsomancy in Unknown Armies)? Is it a world where many people struggle with this - and the world is full of Dianetics Scientology Cults which try to explain away or secretly nurture these alien and fiendish inner demons from beyond our reality? Is it a schizoid Jacob's Ladder thing, haunted by the past and memories that need to be purged before the soul rests?

Just throwing out ideas...

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As relates to Humanity everyone enjoyed the dual definition idea. I used the familiar Good vs Evil and Law vs Chaos struggle of D&D fame as the example of how this works (I actually think this would be cool to use as the basis for a Sword & Sorcery campaign). We thought that Empathy should be one part of the definition, but I think that's mainly due to our years of playing Cyberpunk 2020. I would like Humanity to be your Soul, love the Preacher comic books from Vertigo, and will re-read Sorcerer's Soul for some ideas.

If looking at Sorcer's Soul, you may want to look at the evolving demons section - that explains how you can get demons that go from inner parasites to living embodied creatures. It seems like I just saw a movie where someone's inner demon comes alive and kills them, but I'm drawing a blank. Perhaps checking out something like Videodrome might help.

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Btw, the "Mental Health" ideas discussed are very interesting. This could work well for our Silence of the Lambs creepiness that we're after, and we did already discuss using inner demons. Perhaps some people can only be redeemed by binding their inner demon, but then you curse yourself in the process... Hmmm, I really like this idea.  :)

I'm going to offer a book suggestion to you: try reading "Geek Love" about a freakshow circus which has a lot of wierd creepiness, and a few inner demons, but really its about a profoundly freakish family and their relationships with each other - its a remarkably creepy book and I think you might get something out of it.

As for the process, it seems like "punishing" could be intriguing, like wierd psychotic cutting on your arms, wierd deprivation experiences, and also contain - how would you contain the demon? And it seems you actually mean banishing - after all, binding is pretty much the foundation of the relationship.

I'm curious to hear what you're doing with it - have you written up any of your brainstorming? I find this the most fertile part of my writing - the most full of potential. If you've got some notes and wierdness written down, I'd love to see what you've got!

For the evolving demon idea, take a look at the one sheet I posted a while back.

Sorcerer, Embraced by the Dark

regards,
Trevis

Hi gang,

Thanks for all the advice and ideas so far, I appreciate it.

I have been busy preparing for our first Sorcerer test-run and catching up on all the liste source materials I've been able to find. Dang, I've been watching horror movies around the clock.  :D

My group decided that a test-run was just what we all needed, and they liked the idea of a mini, one-session, campaign called The Party. This is Ron's intro scenario as described in the rulebook. Everyone came up with fine characters IMO, especially as this was their first crack at it.

Here's a look at the characters:

Name: Adam McBane
Player: Daniel
Story: The Party

Stamina: 2 Athletic regime
Will: 3 High self-esteem
Lore: 5 Solitary Adept
Cover: 3 Office Worker
Price: -1 Arrogance (penalized in all social situations)
Humanity: 3 (has yet to roll for his initial binding)

Appearance: Geeky and skinny man in glasses
Telltale: Scars from cuts on his arms
Kicker: Received a mysterious invitation to a party at Alonzo Clarence Shaw's mansion, but doesn't know why, given that the only thing special about him is... Nimbly!

Bound Demons

Name: Nimbly
Type: Object
Bound To: Adam McBane
Binding Strength: Demon +1
Dissatisfaction Meter: Brat (stage 1)

Stamina: 5
Will: 6
Lore: 5
Power: 6

Telltale: Scheming and life-like looks
Appearance: Cute, little porcelain doll
Desire: Scare/kill girls/women
Need: Flowing blood
Abilities:
Armor (Master)
Boost Stamina (Master)
Hold (Self) + Ranged
Shadow (Self)   

-----

Name: High Priest William Rennet III
Player: Fredrik
Story: The Party

Stamina: 1 Old man in wheelchair
Will: 4 Belief system
Lore: 5 Mad, does everything for black power
Cover: 4 High priest
Price: -2 Lame
Humanity: 4 (has yet to roll for his initial binding)

Appearance: Old, black priest, leg-less and wheelchair-bound
Telltale: Long, yellow nails
Kicker: Got news that Alonzo Clarance Shaw has decided to give away the church school building to buddhist monks.

Bound Demons

Name: Wendy
Type: Passer
Bound To: High Priest William Rennet III
Binding Strength: Demon +2
Dissatisfaction Meter: Brat (stage 1)

Stamina: 6
Will: 7
Lore: 6
Power: 7

Telltale: Weight fluctuates +/-10kg per day
Appearance: Black, middle age priest
Desire: Power
Need: Alcohol binges
Abilities:
Link
Confuse
Cover:[/b] Priest
Special Lethal Damage:[/b] Poisonious Fingernails
[+2 more as of yet unspecified abilities]

-----

Name: Sean Riddle
Player: Robert
Story: The Party

Stamina: 5 Chemically heightened scrapper
Will: 3 Belief system
Lore: 2 Apprentice
Cover: 5 Hoodlum
Price: -1 Paranoid (penalized in all situations barring combat)
Humanity: 5 (has yet to roll for his initial binding)

Appearance: Sharp, predator-like features, long, black hair
Telltale: Colors around Sean seem faded or washed-out
Kicker: Received an order to attend a social gathering at the home of his master's long-time nemesis, Alonzo Clarence Shaw, and find out what he's up to.

Bound Demons

Name: Temun
Type: Parasite
Bound To: Sean Riddle
Binding Strength: Master +2
Dissatisfaction Meter: Content (stage 0)

Stamina: 4
Will: 5
Lore: 4
Power: 5

Telltale: Looks like something's crawling under the skin
Appearance: Pale, bony, left forearm
Desire: Art, specifically painting (that's right, performing arts)
Need: Random violence
Abilities:
Special Lethal Damage + Ranged:[/b] Acid Spray (Host)
Vitality (Host)
Armor (Host)

Coming from a very long-running D&D 3.5e (converted from D&D to AD&D to D&D 3.0e to D&D 3.5e) campaign, we felt that defining Humanity as Trust would be really cool, as they as a group never trust NPCs. However, we'd like to use dual definitions for Humanity, and also like the default Sorcerer premise of "What do you want, and what will you do to get it?" We're not sure if they fit very well together though, so right now we're only settled on Trust being one definition of Humanity.

I have yet to define the specifics behind what Humanity really is (leaning towards your Soul), what Demons are, and how to conduct Rituals. I have some time to come up with this though, as we cannot game for a couple of weeks.

Well that's it for now,

Yokiboy

Oh I forgot something, I need some help with the character High Priest William Rennet III. His player, Fredrik, enjoys Gamerism and it shows in this design IMO. He has a Stamina score of 1, and defined his Price as -2 Lame (-2 due to using Mad as his Lore descriptor). He has no legs, having offered these in the ritual used to Bind Wendy, but the wheelchair helps him somewhat get around that (oh you don't wanna hear about all the James Bond gadgets that this wheelchair's been outfitted with).

How and when should the -2 Lame Price affect him during the game? Obviously just about any physical actions, requiring Stamina checks, would be affected, but he already has a Stamina of 1. This will give the opponent 2 bonus dice on all opposed Stamina actions, is this enough of a Price?

TTFN,

Yokiboy

Hello,

This has been a fun thread to watch.

I'll confine my post to your self-appointed powergamer group member, who is about to get a few nasty surprises, I think.

1. The "lame" Price applies to any sort of physical moving-around he does. Period. Yes, including in the chair. It has nothing to do with actually walking.

2. You are right about opponents getting two bonus dice. Any physical confrontation of any kind counts - if he says, "But I'm standing still!" it doesn't matter. Moving is moving.

It strikes me as a perfectly valid Price, and in fact rather severe if properly applied.

You do realize what he's aiming for, right? By making his character so wimpy in one sphere,  he's angling for your hesitancy as a GM to put his character into that sphere of conflict at all. If you never have (for instance) one of Yzor's spawn step out of the closet and seize his throat, then he doesn't have to worry about such conflicts, and so he's maxed out on dice for the conflicts that you do fling at him.

Don't succumb to this reasoning. Hit his character with all the same conflicts as everyone else, which is to say, physical, emotional, sorcerous, social, and so on.

Best,
Ron