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After some excellent discussion in the Wake up! thread, I've really been working to focus and fine-tune Dreamspire, its "aboutness," what

The Wake up! thread had many good points, and perhaps the most important of these is identifying that pivotal mechanic and conflict that drives the game. I had suggested the very vague Quest mechanic along with the currency of Pawns. I'm still headed in that direction, with a firmer notion of how it will work.

To that end, I've started a new post here that will describe that crucial mechanic as I've got it worked out thus far:

The struggle in the game -- why players care, as Scott so rightly puts it -- is finding one's way out of the nightmarish game being played by rival royals and the guild(s). You guys recommended various ideas on handling pawns to symbolize this struggle, and others mentioned use of Check and Endgame to do similar things. All on the right track, as I see it.

So, here's what I'm working on to "gel" those various ideas. Characters will be able to collect Black Pawns and White Pawns. Black Pawns are useful, even powerful tokens that help characters improve effectiveness, empower supernatural abilities, fend of oblivion, and so on. But there's a catch. Get too many Black Pawns (8, to be precise, just like a front row in chess), and you enter the Endgame. Your character is in Check. Only with some kind of "repentance" and maybe a little luck can you avoid Checkmate.

Conversely, White Pawns aren't as immediately useful. You can't alter rolls or empower magical Talents. But, what you can do is gain control of a scene. White Pawns become a kind of currency for narrative control of what I'll call a Gambit, (a scene). Typically, that control resides with the GM, or Grand Master -- oozing chess here. Obviously, White Pawns are powerful in their own right, as they represent almost raw creativity and self-control. The catch: earn 8 White Pawns, and you enter the Endgame as well. However, in this case it means you've earned enough self-control and creative authority to address your Quest. You, as a player, can take over the direction of the game in order to address your Quest and earn the right to escape Dreamspire once and for all. The other players, meanwhile, may be eager to help. They might also be eager to hinder your escape for a number of reasons, which makes things awfully interesting.

I know you folks will have questions, which I'll be happy to answer. I'm sure I've overlooked details -- for example, how do two characters who enter Endgame compete for control? Cut me at least some slack .My brain is nearly fried after working on Cartoon Action Hour! layouts for 6 hours last night (after full day's work) and nearly revolutionizing the way I think about my game!

Matt,

Okay, I just read this and haven't really had time to process it.  That said, I'm pretty interested in seeing where this goes.  The idea that entering the Endgame phase will bring with it all sorts of imbedded conflict is pretty cool, and I want to see what that ends up looking like.  As I envision it now, a person who enters Check (or who is close to getting there), becomes the center of attention - everything maneuvers around him, and he becomes the most important piece in the game, if only for a short time.  That's pretty damn cool.

So what do you need help with?  What questions do you have for us?

- Scott

Quote from: hardcoremoose
So what do you need help with?  What questions do you have for us?

Well, for starters, does this approach answer some of the questions you and others posed yesterday? That is, does this mechanic help the players care?

Also, I'd love to hear suggestions for folks on what type of character behavior or action should earn each type of Pawn. In other words, how should these pawns be rewarded (and therefore what does the game encourage?). I have a few ideas of my own, but I'd like to hear other ideas, too.

FYI, I decided that I didn't want to discourage people from playing "the Great Game." That is, if the goal was getting out of the nightmare realm, then it's really no fun if to do that, all you have to do is "be good." Instead, I think the idea that you beat the dark at it's own game is far more interesting and fun.[/i]

So far, so good. What you haev may engage the players and give structure to the game. But what you haven't said yet is what the Quests are, or how they are assigned to a character. How do I as a player know what to do to give my character a quest. You mentioned that it's a CharGen issue. Fine. So can I choose as my quest to find a cat? Is that too short a quest, too long, too hard, too easy, about the right sort of thing, not at all what we're looking for (I hope so)? How do I know? How is it stated? Written on the character sheet?

Give us solid mechanics man, solid mechanics. How is this accomplished?

Also, the way it sounds now, you can't address the quest at all until you enter endgame. Is that how it's supposed to sound? Is there no way to incorporate the quest during non-endgame play? Mechanically?

You also need to be more clear on the Pawns thing. Do I have unlimited access, and when doing something I essentially purchase the pawn into my pool? Or do I spend the pawns from my pool? If so, where do they come from, the GM spending Pawns? I don't precisely get it.

And where are my machination mechanics!?! How does the player get embroiled?

Mike

The more I hear about this game, the more I like it.

QuoteI'd love to hear suggestions for folks on what type of character behavior or action should earn each type of Pawn.

What type of behaviour do you want to encourage? My first thought was one type for getting involved in the great game, one for following your quest. That would seem to fit.

Matt

Somehow, Holmes, I knew you'd chime in and call me on all my bluffs. Kick a man when he's down, will you?!? Nevermind that you're right.

So, I'll address your questions as best I can, considering the ideas above are fresh out of the oven.

To answer what Quest is and does, I think you first have to answer how the character becomes trapped in the nightmare realm of Dreamspire, how he or she came to this world from reality. The possible answers are many. Some include: deep depression after losing a loved one; escape from real-world trauma or horror (abuse, war, painful illness, etc.); loss of the creative spark of life (a barren mother, a procrastinating artists, etc.); punishment for a great transgression (commiting abuse, betraying a loved one, etc.).

Once you've done that, then you can begin to constuct a symbolic goal for your character to achieve. Some example, taken from those above, might be: finding/rescuing the soul of your loved one who's died; healing a perilous wound in the character or another character to alleviate the trauma; creating something longasting in the realm (like a guild or perhaps a hospice); saving or freeing someone who'd been betrayed or enslaved, perhaps, thus earning your redemption.

These are general examples. A character Quest should be more specific, and symbolism is encouraged. For example, taking the first example above (death of a loved one & finding their soul), the player (and GM) might determine the loved one's soul is contained in a vessel of stained glass that sheds scintilating lights while hanging as a decorative element in the Menagerie -- the royal hall of House Magirious. Getting that wondrous ornament from a House obsessed with beauty and art will be no small feat, and certainly something the character couldn't attempt without some authoratative control on his part. One does not just waltz into King Daldianus' hall and demand an object of his affection.

In terms of keeping track of the thing, i.e. the format, Quest appears on the character sheet (or whatever the player uses to manage his character). It is simply a short paragraph -- two or three sentences, perhaps -- that describes the character's noble ambition.

Players may -- indeed, should -- address their Quests at every possible turn. They are not limited to doing so by Endgame. Rather, Endgame is the phase at which they can earn game control resolve their Quest. This may be glorious victory (and escape from the realm) or even not-so-spectacular defeat (Checkmate, and personal oblvion whether death or otherwise).

Pawns, namely white pawns, have everything to do with Quest in terms of mechanics. As you earn a White Pawn, you mark a step in gaining creative control, which you should orient around your quest. Gaining control of a Gambit should address the conflicts at hand, but in such a way that some progress, however minor, is made toward your goal. It might be learning some information, gaining a new contact, earing a new item to help your quest, and so on.

As I've said, I haven't completely answered sufficiently for myself how the Pawns mechanics work -- what the exchange rate might be, how they're spent from this pool or that, and how they're "kept" as the meter cranks up toward 8. Usually, an idea this fresh needs some sleep on my part, but I will indeed be thinking hard about how this whole Pawn "economy" works. Meanwhile, I look forward to suggestions!

And machination mechanics? Good grief, man, I can barely keep up with prolific posters like yourself. But design that fast? ... Ok, I'm thinking about it, definitely!

Hi Matt,

First off, I like the use of Gambit for "Scene," and the pawn stuff sounds really neat.  I'm seeing Dreamspire as a sort of dark Wonderland with a Machiavellian twist.  If the Premise is (for example) the one about "What will you do to escape being a Pawn?"  Then we're talking about manipulation and constraints on free will.  What kinds of Quests play into that?  How does one become independent or (alternatively) of higher status (not-Pawn)?  What does one need to sacrifice to become autonomous?  Does one need to sacrifice anything in the first place?

These ideas may give you some starting points to set up quest-structure and options for players.  Deliver someone from/into Bondage.  Make an exchange.  Force a move.  Feint (false quest).  Castle (escape from danger).  Conceal preparations.  Find a resource/set up a position.  Sacrifice someone else in your -- or another's -- stead.  In keeping with the chess theme, there's a lot of good ideas to work from.  You might look at some classic strategies, such as Fool's Mate, and see if they offer inspiration for quests.

Best,

Blake

Quote...how the character becomes trapped in the nightmare realm of Dreamspire... a procrastinating artist...)

Uh, does this mean Dreamspire is actually The Forge? (I'm not an artist, but I'm only here when I'm procrastinating...)

- Walt

I read through the Dreamspire threads, and I'm real interested. But I want the meat of the thing. I know you're still hammering it out, so I'll be patient!

My suggestion would be to drop the traits and make your metasystem the ONLY system. Screw traits. Player effectiveness is measured in how they play the chess-y system. In-game, rather than pre-game, choices are what matters, especially with the setup of "you are sucked into this wicked conspiring world."

Can't wait to see more ...

First off, Pawns, Black and White: First, a running tally should be kept of total Pawns earned/used. I think White Pawns should be earned, and Black Pawns you should be allowed to use (therefore counting them part of your tally) whenever you feel like it. With the detail that getting 8 black pawns puts you into a very perilous endgame, I think people will be reluctant to use Black Pawns, but will if the situation calls for it. Add to this that it is possible to get out of check, which will lower your tally, but keep you in risk.

Also, while I think playing the Great Game is all well and good, I think you should focus on the Quest for Redemption. ::can just see Mike's PM now..:: Any playing of the Game should be focused toward accomplishing your Quest for Redemption, and any Game play which is not toward that end should be penalized somehow, bringing the character closer to Check and Mate.

As for quests, your opening ideas for them are great. Symbolic Reparations for past wrongs, or perceived wrongs... awesome. But, however, I think that Quests should hold an additional, innate danger to them. What will you do to accomplish your quest? What will it cost those around you? What will that cost end up costing you?

To harken back to my play example from the other post, Imagine that the Knight once betrayed his friends or liege out of cowardice. That was how he became trapped in Dreamspire. Now he has to make the ultimate sacrifice to save others to redeem himself. So in the example, he does make the ultimate sacrifice, and gives himself up to Dreamspire, allowing his companions to escape, but forever trapping himself.

That exemplifies the double-edge of Endgame, even if it's good endgame. He redeemed himself, but by the very action of redemption, he dooms himself. That would make for some awesome emotional scenes, especially at endgame.

Also, just the whole idea of endgame and redemption/checkmate would create one of two situations, in my mind. 1. The players would be scheming against each other to achieve their own redemptions, which would entail them playing the Great Game on their own, internal level. 2. They would attempt to make sure no one was left behind, and they'd all work toward achieving their endgame and redemption in the same scene (as in my play example). Either way would create a very emotionally intense game, especially in the endgame. I think you ought to channel it down these two avenues (or a few more, if there are others I haven't considered) of cooperative or competitive.

Finally, some ideas about chess-terms: Gambit, IIRC is a risky maneuver to gain advantage. Therefore, I think that only certain scenes should be called Gambits, which limits the power of White Pawns (which, if I understand how they grant Narrative Power, is actually fairly impressive) to important instances. Other scenes/encounters should be called something else, possible Passes (as in Pawns in Passing).

That's all for now, but count on me chiming in again. I am enthused about this game, and determined to own one of the first hardcopy issues.

Egads. Due to the sneaky influence of The Moose and others, this game is sliping dangerously close to Narrativist territory. Are we exploring this strange world, or are we looking at some narr Premise like, "Can one escape from the prison of ones own mind?"

There are also hints of Gamism slipping in.

Are these inclusions intentional?

Mike

Quote from: Mike HolmesEgads. Due to the sneaky influence of The Moose and others, this game is sliping dangerously close to Narrativist territory.
...
Are these inclusions intentional?

Not by me, though it may sound like it. I think most Sim games are bogged down by an unnecessary System. Using a Chess System as a way to explore the Setting or Situation would be far more satisfying than another Traits/Skills + funky metasystem.

When I first heard about Dreamspire, I immediately leapt to a lot of conclusions about how good a Mervyn Peake(amongst others) inspired RPG could be.  

But reading the couple of threads here, I'm struck by how much BETTER Dreamspire is going to be than my preconceived version!  It looks like its shaping up to have so much fascinating content in addition to a fantastic style.

I look forward to reading more!

Quote from: Zak ArntsonNot by me, though it may sound like it. I think most Sim games are bogged down by an unnecessary System. Using a Chess System as a way to explore the Setting or Situation would be far more satisfying than another Traits/Skills + funky metasystem.

Actually, I agree. But not that the such boggy systems impede Narrativism, but that such systems impede Simulationism (which is what I'm after here). It seems to me that Sim designers often make the mistake of including too much detail about things that the game does not focus on (usually combat). The difference here is the question of whether or not the game is to be about player creation of a story regarding a narrative premise that has to do with freeing ones-self from a prision of ones own construction, or instead a game about exploring an interesting alternate state of being.

In the first case the Pawns/Quest mechanic are a means for the player to concentrate on creating the themes that address the Premise. In the latter they should be about the "reality" (or "unreality" if you prefer) of this particular setting, and the particular situation of the characters. Yes, I see this as being a potentially excellent example of Exploration of Situation. The setting I see as actually a meta-setting, or metaphor, or excuse for the Situation.

This sort of Sim game would require a set of rules that focused on that exploration. I don't see crunchy combat mechanics as being at all important, for example. Puts the focus in the wrong place. But I do see a ruleset that deals with displaying this world's conflicts in some detail. And the setting can include things to explore, not just things that would be of interest to the potential narrative premise. For example, I'm seeing well detailed courts of intrigue (populated by characters that are archetypes in black and white). The idea being for the player to get caught up in the intrigues therin.

The point is that I personally think Matt should pick a direction and go with it. If he wants Sim, as he's said he does, then I think he's starting to slide into Narrativism accidentally, and he needs to turn around. OTOH, maybe it would be a better Narrativist game.


Another area that needs to be detailed involves the media of exchange. The Pawns can provide this partially if they have a non-metagame presence. That is, the denizens of the Dreamspire know they exist and trade in them. But I can also see the Pawns as true metagame which the characters are unaware of. In any case, there needs to be other things to traffic in. Love, Power, Information, Material goods, all of the above? What's important to the denizens of the Dreamspire, and why? That's important. For example, perhaps all of the denizens are trapped from outside. This would give them all the potential goal of obtaining whatever they need to escape. For those who are constructs of the Realm, what sort of human needs do they have. Heck, do people need to eat and breathe in Dreamspire? Are their physical forms subject to violence? Can they die from violence?

BTW, can one tell the difference between people who are in certain states by looking at them? I could envision characters that are just arrived as looking more human, or "real". The more involved in the game, the more they could start looking like abstract representations of some archtype. Their appearance would become more cardboardy and simple, until they finally started to look very much like mobile chess peices, monochrome and glossy. Just an idea.

Mike

QuoteBTW, can one tell the difference between people who are in certain states by looking at them? I could envision characters that are just arrived as looking more human, or "real". The more involved in the game, the more they could start looking like abstract representations of some archtype. Their appearance would become more cardboardy and simple, until they finally started to look very much like mobile chess peices, monochrome and glossy. Just an idea.

An interesting idea, says I. Perhaps this would be measured by the number of black/white pawns a character possesses, or has possessed in their existence in the world of Dreamspire?