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I am researching options for magic in a medieval fantasy RPG. I know I don't like the memorization system in D&D. It doesn't make sense.

I like the idea of magic points. Something even more simple is the idea that casting spells will cost hit points. Basically it drains your life energy to produce magic.

I also know I don't like the idea of having a huge list of spells you have to choose from. I see the wizard as a creative spirit who should be able to shape her magic. Preferably, all possible magical effects could fall under different schools or spheres. White Wolf's Mage is like this, I think.

The idea I am trying to develop is basically, if you want to throw a fireball, then you'll need 1 magic point in Fire and 1 in Kinetics, to create fire and then make it move towards your foe.... or something like this. Maybe if you had 2 points in Kinetic magic, then you can even make the fireball act like a smart bomb and actually "chase" its moving target, or something like this. Are there any medieval fantasy rpg's that use a system like this, so I don't have to reinvent the wheel?

Does anybody have any other ideas or options for how to treat magic?  Any other systems in existence that work well? Any experiences with magic points or custom spells or any other?

Peace,

Sonja

I suggest you look at Ars Magica. The rules can be downloaded for free at http://www.atlas-games.com/. [They also make at least one Ars Magica/d20 crossover adventure. Perhaps it contains information about how to combine elements of the Ars Magica system with d20. I don't know.]

The Riddle of Steel sorcery system works with "spheres" as well, and magic ages the caster because it's drawing its energy from his body itself (no spell points etc to track, but you get oolder the more you cast, unless you're careful).

Brian.

Hey Sonja,

You may also want to check out the Talislanta 4th Edition magic system. A small overview of the game, including the basics of the magic system, can be downloaded at the url below.

http://www.talislanta.com/talislanta/download.htm

-Chris

Quote from: SonjaDoes anybody have any other ideas or options for how to treat magic?  Any other systems in existence that work well? Any experiences with magic points or custom spells or any other?

I'm going to recommend you take a look at Multiverser. The system lets player characters build their own spells on the fly, if they wish. A balancing act of how much is invested into the performance of the ritual versus how much is expected from it gives a fixed situation modifier that attaches to the spell any time it's used, and a percentile roll determines whether or not it succeeded.

I've seen four general ways to limit spells:

[*]D&D-type spell lists with pre-filled spell slots which are learned and cast (and although it seems odd, it was drawn from a respected fantasy author's work).[*]Point expenditure systems whereby you deplete a resource to cast whatever spells you wish (aging would be such a system, with a more solidly in-game resource).[*]Success/failure based limitations in which the chance to botch deters excessive use of magic and the possibility of failure prevents the magic-user from overrunning the game without coming to the point where he is "out of magic" (which both of the above eventually reach).[*]Seat-of-the-pants systems in which an arbiter decides what is consistent with the expectations of the group and implements it accordingly--basically freeform with a referee (or referees).[/list:u]
Hope that helps.

--M. J. Young

There was a suggestion once a short while ago. I could be misremembering, but I think the term was "practical magic," where magic was simply a catch-all mundane problem solver. The example used on that thread was something like:

The 'locksmith' or 'breaking & entering' abilities could be used to pick the lock of a door, but so could magic. The locksmith would get some locksmithing tools, the b&e character would use a credit card slid into the door frame, the magician would wave his hand across the doorknob while mumbling some magic words. In either case, a success would result in the same thing: an unlocked door. The only difference is color.

Perhaps I was interpreting the question too narrowly. I was trying to name a system like the one being sketched in the question. My favorite approach is found in Hedge Magic.

Quote from: M. J. YoungI've seen four general ways to limit spells:

[*]D&D-type spell lists with pre-filled spell slots which are learned and cast (and although it seems odd, it was drawn from a respected fantasy author's work).[*]Point expenditure systems whereby you deplete a resource to cast whatever spells you wish (aging would be such a system, with a more solidly in-game resource).[*]Success/failure based limitations in which the chance to botch deters excessive use of magic and the possibility of failure prevents the magic-user from overrunning the game without coming to the point where he is "out of magic" (which both of the above eventually reach).[*]Seat-of-the-pants systems in which an arbiter decides what is consistent with the expectations of the group and implements it accordingly--basically freeform with a referee (or referees).[/list:u]

I agree that these are the most common ways among fantasy-genre RPGs to limit magic, but all of these are based on an arbitrary assumption.  Namely, it is based on making magic effects sufficiently powerful that they would be game-breaking without restricting times per day that they can be done. If you just moderate the effects or equivalently increase the cost to acquire, then you don't need this limit.   i.e. A D&D wizard who could throw one fireball per round would most likely be game-breaking, but that is just because fireball is too powerful relative to equivalent abilities of other characters.  

Another alternative is just to restrict casting: i.e. it takes sufficiently long and/or has enough restrictions.  For example, if fireball took five rounds to cast, it would potentially be a reasonable power (i.e. it would not overshadow five rounds of fighting from an equivalent warrior).  

I think the big beef that I have with limited casting rate (i.e. times per day) is that it suggests the idea of magic being an energy which is gathered and used up -- in a scientific fashion.  I discuss this some in my essay, http://www.darkshire.net/~jhkim/rpg/magic/">Breaking Out of Scientific Magic Systems.

How about Unknown Armies' postmodern magic system? Each magical school has a set of obsessive behaviors one must perform in order to gain charges. The greater the sacrifice or symbolism of the act, the more intense a magical charge will have been earned. There are also taboos one must avoid doing or else all charges will be lost. Charges are spent to cast spells of a very focused, but equally potent, magical nature.

According to the game text, the system goals were to make an adept no more or less powerful than someone with a gun. I happen to like these magical rules since following the obsessions can lead to interesting plot seeds.

I just thought of a new system for magic: KARMA

Your character starts with 5 Karma points. Every time you cast a spell, you make a roll. The higher your Magick rating and the easier the spell, the easier the roll is to succeed.

If the spell works, you GAIN a Karma point. If the spell doesn't work, you lose 3 Karma points (the rule of 3 many Wiccans speak of).

If you reach 0 Karma, you lose the ability to cast more magick for the rest of the day. Every new morning, you get your full 5 Karma back.

Basically this means, you can keep casting spells as long as they are within your range of ease. Any character, even at lowel levels, can cast more powerful spells, but the risk is higher that you'll fail, and you may lose Karma.

As your character gains more point in Magic over the course of the campaign, spells with higher difficulty levels become easier for you because of your bonus, and more basic spells become nearly automatic successes.

What I like of this idea is you actually GAIN points rather than lose them for casting most magic. It's always more fun as a player to win things than lose them. And it gives you the power to manage your Karma and decide if you want to play safe and cast easy spells or risk casting a harder spell and maybe lose Karma.

I figure that most spells would have a 75% success rate, so basically you fail (and lose 3 karma points) for every 3 spells you succeed (and win back 3 karma).

And the most easy cantrip-like spells would still have a maximum success rate of, say 93%, basically to prevent players from overusing them as a way to gamble and rebuy Karma that way, hmm...

I'll think about it more...

Sonja

I know a lot of players who would start out the day by casting 5 or 6 easy cantrip spells everyday to add enough Karma to be sure of several castings later. Say, preserve food, repel insects, clean clothes, clean body, spice food... ok...so I made all my 93% rolls... I've got  10 Karma now I can fail at least three times today, and still have another chance at a spell.

Which is ok too, if thats within the realm of what you had in mind...several low level 'color' spells...with the occassional riskier big spell.

Success is its own reward, and doubly so with the system. Which could be cool...
"Guess this just isn't my day..."- as the second failed spell of the day leaches away the casters remaining Karma (out of 5)

Does anything special happen if KArma is sucked down into negative?
For instance if I failed the first two spells I tried, I'd be at -1 (technically)...will there be any repercussions between 0, -1, -2 ? or is it all "0 Empty"?

Sonja... wow.  I like that.  I really like that.  If I didn't already rely heavily on a "points" system (and have it all written and the like), I'd probably borrow it from you.

Quote from: SonjaI am researching options for magic in a medieval fantasy RPG.

Quote

I suppose you could try researching people's beliefs about magic during the medieval period and then work up rules for that.

QuoteDoes anybody have any other ideas or options for how to treat magic?  Any other systems in existence that work well? Any experiences with magic points or custom spells or any other?

HeroQuest treats magic as an ability mostly just like any other ability, but instead of rolling against the 'mundane' difficulty of a task you roll against either the magical resistance of the target or a fairly low default difficulty.

For example (from the book), I have a magical Tree Leaping ability and a mundane Jump skill. If I try to jump over a tree then I roll using my Jump skill against a difficulty based on their height of the tree. If I use my magical Tree Leaping ability I roll my Tree Leaping magic ability against a default difficulty, regardless of how high the tree is. If the tree was actualy a magical tree and home to a forest spirit, I might have to roll my magical Tree Lepaing ability against the magical resistance of the spirit.

There are no spell points or such in HeroQuest, although there are Hero Points that can be used to boost any ability roll and are often used with magical abilities.

The game is set in the fantasy work of Glorantha, but the west of Glorantha has lots of Medieval colour and Wizardry magic has a very medieval church kind of feel, plus some elements simmilar to Kabbalism which was very influential on historical hermetic magic.


Simon Hibbs

I'll back Simon up on that one. I love how HQ does things (mostly ;-)).

One of the reasons for it's success in magic is the Effects First design. That is, players buy game effects, more or less, and then drape them with in-game description of any sort.

The original game that did this was Hero System. And it's still the champion, IMO. That is, if you want to create a magic system, just look at the latest edition of Fantasy Hero, which has 67 pages devoted to nothing but how to make up a system. Not systems, how to make your own.

The point is that, even if you don't use Hero, it'll make you think of everything you need to think of to ensure that you have a system that works internally. It's a very interesting process, IMO.


Another consideration is the game that this is going into. You really can't make the "perfect" magic system (or help another) unless you consider the game as a whole. So, is there anywhere we can reference the rest of the game?

Mike

Quote from: John KimI agree that these are the most common ways among fantasy-genre RPGs to limit magic, but all of these are based on an arbitrary assumption.  Namely, it is based on making magic effects sufficiently powerful that they would be game-breaking without restricting times per day that they can be done. If you just moderate the effects or equivalently increase the cost to acquire, then you don't need this limit.

Actually, this is part of the Multiverser design,

Quote from: which I referenced when I

[*]Success/failure based limitations in which the chance to botch deters excessive use of magic and the possibility of failure prevents the magic-user from overrunning the game without coming to the point where he is "out of magic" (which both of the above eventually reach).[/list:u]

It's more of a three-way balancing act. In essence you have

[*]the power of the spell[*]the investment necessary to cast it[*]the probability of success.[/list:u]You can increase the power and either (or both) increase the needed investment or decrease the probability of success. You can decrease the investment by sacrificing power or probability of success. You can increase the probability of success by increasing the investment or decreasing the power.

Power is increased if the spell does more, or does it better. Investment includes time to cast, anything needed to cast, level of physical involvement, limitations on when/where/how it can be used of any sort. Probability of success is connected to the roll.

So I agree that making magic less powerful either by reducing the effect or by increasing the cost is an excellent way to limit it, but think that's already included as a factor in at least this approach.

--M. J. Young