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I've been thinking of a RoS / Conan crossover since I bought the game a few weeks ago. Everything's been pretty gravy so far, until I came to the magic system. The idea of sorcerors aging is neat, but in the Hyborian age, magic usually leads to moral decay long before physical enfeeblement sets in. So, I whipped up the general outline of a house-rule, and I'd appreciate any comments or suggestions.

The general idea is that rather than aging whenever a spell is cast, a sorceror loses spiritual attribute points. Rolls are the same as before, but for each month that a sorceror would age under the old system, they instead have to spend a point of a spiritual attribute (not necessarily one applicable to the situation). As the sorceror exercises their willpower to dominate reality, they are forced to give parts of themselves in the process.

My worry is that this might hose sorcerors' advancement, as they're probably going to lose a session or so's worth of SA's (3-5 points) whenever they cast a spell. Has anyone tried this? How did your mage PCs advancement change? Thanks.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine

The general idea is that rather than aging whenever a spell is cast, a sorceror loses spiritual attribute points.

Neat.

QuoteMy worry is that this might hose sorcerors' advancement.

Certainly would, and too much, IMO.  Perhaps the S.A.s could return after time, or let them go towards something even if they're lost, perhaps at a ratio of 2:1.  Just some thoughts.

-Mark

Just thinking out loud here.  What if instead of losing a current SA point, they lost a point off of the Maximum of the SA.  So Passion for Wife loses a point and thus can never get above 4, then 3, then 2, etc. until ultimately the maximum hits 0 and the Passion must be totally given up forever.  No matter what the Sorcerer will never feel Passion for his wife again.  In this way the sorcerer is literally losing bits of himself and what used to be important to him...all sacrificed in the name of his obsession.

One can easily imagine a sorcerer whose Drive to take over the world first led him to the occult arts, but now after decades of study, he's so obsessed by the magic that he's long since forgotten his intention to take over the world...seems a very hyperborean sort of character actually.

Quote from: ValamirJust thinking out loud here.  What if instead of losing a current SA point, they lost a point off of the Maximum of the SA.  So Passion for Wife loses a point and thus can never get above 4, then 3, then 2, etc. until ultimately the maximum hits 0 and the Passion must be totally given up forever.  No matter what the Sorcerer will never feel Passion for his wife again.  In this way the sorcerer is literally losing bits of himself and what used to be important to him...all sacrificed in the name of his obsession.

One can easily imagine a sorcerer whose Drive to take over the world first led him to the occult arts, but now after decades of study, he's so obsessed by the magic that he's long since forgotten his intention to take over the world...seems a very hyperborean sort of character actually.

Now that is a cool idea.

The thing I worry about with fiddling with maximum SAs for sorcerors is that you're indirectly hosing them for even more SA points in the long run. Because every time one of the SA's maximum reaches 0, he not only can't use it, but he's going to have to empty another one in order to change it.

If I were to use that rule (and it is neat), what I might do is, rather than lose one point per month aged under the old system (which opens up the possibility of losing all 5 points in an SA in a single spell) is turn the "aging" roll into a pass-fail thing. One possibility might be if you roll as many or more successes on your "aging" roll as you do on your casting roll, you don't lose a point. If you fail, you lose one point off of any SA, regardless of how many successes you failed by. If you fumble, you lose maximum SA points according to your margin of failure. That way, it's a longer, slower degeneration, with the occasional burn-out (fumbles).

Yeah, I was thinking it probably needed to have the scale adjusted.  That seems a pretty good way to do it.

I would have to seriously disagree with robbing sorcerers of SA's. Players don't like being hosed. and although players may be willing to trade things (like ageing as a cost of casting cool magic) when you dig into thier Xp you hit them below the belt.

  As a longtime fan of all that is Conan (and I have the books, comics, tsr game and dvd to prove it) the effect you are looking far is better done by some sort of corruption mechanic.

  Instead of ageing on failed rolls you use something like d6 starwars darkside points, the CofC madness meter, or Vampires humanity mechanic. This way as a pc succumbs to the temptations of evil - depending upon how many points in "corrupted" he has, you require the player to play his PC in a more and more evil/selfish way...

(maybe eventually causing him to turn in his good guy SA's for selfish/evil ones?)

  ...until it gets to the point that that he becomes so corrupt he becomes and NPC, or the other players kill him for his own good.

This way he keeps his SA's (you don't alter thier development)- but can still slide into darkness.
(you might want to provide a way to lower corruption points... but make it difficult).

QuotePlayers don't like being hosed. and although players may be willing to trade things (like ageing as a cost of casting cool magic) when you dig into thier Xp you hit them below the belt.

That's a pretty narrow view don't you think.

After all you're assuming that players are playing because they want XPs to advance.  I know many players who wouldn't give a rip about something as trivial as that.

I don't really want to introduce a completely new mechanic outside of the ruleset, though. Part of the point of SAs so far as I can tell is that they model PC motivations, so they strike me as more appropriate to the task of showing the increasing corruption of the PC through magical power. I do agree that it might unbalance things to be constantly stripping them of their SAs, though.

As a proposal to the thread: Would using Insight points maybe work here? That is, we got back to the policy of # of months aged = # of points lost, but have them taken out of the Insight Pool rather than the SAs (with, perhaps, a table of negative insight points where -5 causes you to lower your E rating to an F, or your A to a C or whatever). So, playing a sorceror hoses the next character the PC plays at the expense of the current one, as the sorceror gradually accumulates more and more negative karma (which, as it were, carries over to his next incarnation). I like it thematically, but I don't know if it makes the consequences of sorcery too remote from play.

Spiritual Attributes are so at the core of gameplay in TRoS I think that sorcerors losing them would really not work so well.  In essence sorcery, especially excessive sorcery, would be weakening them, making them less potent, as opposed to corrupting them, making them less human.  Essentially twisting their spiritual attributes, fouling them, not reducing them.  How to implement that though.. hmmm...

Quote"I don't really want to introduce a completely new mechanic outside of the ruleset, though."

- Don't, just instead of calling it "months aged", call it "corruption points". And after they've built up a few dozen points or so have the character be subject to some type of corrupting effect. It'd be just a matter of determining what the effects are. The method for aquireing corruption is already there. (perhaps every 30 points or so have them change an SA to a corrupt/selfish one until all thier SA's are totally given over to evil.)

QuoteThat's a pretty narrow view don't you think.

Uhhhh, no. Player's don't like being hosed.

QuoteAfter all you're assuming that players are playing because they want XPs to advance. I know many players who wouldn't give a rip about something as trivial as that.

I don't have to assume that players want XP's to advance. I know they do.
But to concede a point... XP (or in this case SA's) is not the only reason people play, nor should it ever be. But I maintain that most rpg players would react negatively to having thier hard earned SA points taken away from them due to a bad roll of the dice.

You may know players who would not care about such a "trivial" thing. I don't.

Quotedon't have to assume that players want XP's to advance. I know they do.
But to concede a point... XP (or in this case SA's) is not the only reason people play, nor should it ever be. But I maintain that most rpg players would react negatively to having thier hard earned SA points taken away from them due to a bad roll of the dice.

You may know players who would not care about such a "trivial" thing. I don't.

You are aware I hope that there are several games out there in which characters don't earn any "xps" the characters NEVER get any better (at least not from mechanical causes).  

Reducing a characters XPs  is not the same thing as hosing a player.

Besides, its a choice...the player makes it and lives with the consequences...like everything else in TROS.

Further, if the player REALLY hates the idea of losing SAs...they simply use alot of dice on the resist "aging" roll.  This reduces the effectiveness of the magic...but again, a choice.

Note that one way to scale down the SA drain is to have multiple months drain add up to a single SA point (or Max SA point, to go with Valamir's very cool suggestion).  

Use a system similar to the XP system for buying traits, but use it to buy down the SAs.  For example, failure by 3 months yields -3 XP from an SA.  Only reduce the SA once the whole SA value has been bought off.  This gives a margin where a little bit won't hurt you, but a little more might.  This raises the tension... how close do you want to get to that breakpoint?

. . . . . . . -- Eric

edit:  reduce overuse of quotes & parens

The "Corruption" points mechanic certainly works well, but again, since SAs are the core of advancement and growth in TROS I agree that their potential value shouldn't be limited.

A suggested combination:  Work out a table by which increasing levels of Corruption limit the maximum value of SAs related to anything other than sorcerous or cosmic goals.

So SAs like "Drive:  Become the greatest sorcerer in the world", or "Destiny:  Alter the Cosmic Balance of Power" (whatever the heck that means in your game), or "Passion:  Hatred of the UnGifted" -- or just plain Luck, as the cosmic random factors -- can max out, but SAs like Conscience, or Faith in a religion that emphasizes personal service or humility, or Passions of love and loyalty, are limited.

To make it more interesting, one could make the limit not on a per-SA basis, but overall, so that with a limit of, say, 10 points in "humanistic" SAs, you could either max out a couple (5 x 2), have a balance in 3 (4, 3, 3) or spread them evenly (2 x 5).  So sorcerers may retain some capacity for love and humanity, but to get maximum benefit from it, they have to define it more and more narrowly.

Even Khemsa (the rogue Seer of Mount Yimsha in Howard's "The People of the Black Circle") loved a mortal woman with a passion as fierce as any of Conan's....

Quote from: StephenThe "Corruption" points mechanic certainly works well, but again, since SAs are the core of advancement and growth in TROS I agree that their potential value shouldn't be limited.
..

I don't think a new mechanic is neccessary just give them a flaw called corruption...scale it so that 10 pts equals a minor Corruption flaw, and 20pts is a major flaw. Treat it as any other flaw that causes tempation...greed, bloodlust, lecherousness, etc..

just my 2d !