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As I've spent much time browsing and reading through the various threads and posts on The Forge, I've come to notice that there seems to be a lack of coherency of texts available for those truly interested in the "Creative" process of game creation.

Newbies (like myself) come in to The Forge with a fist-full of questions and desire to throw them out for answers.  And, even if a lot of research is done on the site, the newbies will infrequently find specific answers to "creative" questions.

Some sample questions that arise:
Should I use gold pieces or make up my own currency?

What kind of skills should "cat-people" have?

Are 12-sided dice better for skill checks or determining attributes?



First of all, these questions are almost always subjective.  Second, there are methods of answering these questions for ourselves that are often overlooked.  The simple answer that I read the most is "Why would you choose that method/mechanic/etc?"

So I'll cut to the chase:
Should we have a forum for specifically addressing "Creative Process" questions outside of the Indie Game Design forum?

If not, does someone have the resources, information or time to address some of the most basic questions so that we don't spend time quibbling over redundant questsions?

This may be a massive undertaking, and I'd be willing to help out as much as my newbie-self could, but it seems as though The Forge could use a greater "resource" section detailing the differences in RPG philosophy -- i.e. currency, character creation, etc which are all part of System.

Welcome to the Forge, Asrogoth.

I'm intrigued by the questions;

Quote from: youShould I use gold pieces or make up my own currency?

As you say, these are subjective; but there is another layer to why such questions aren't answered directly anywhere here, I think.

The first one is clearly a setting question; it really doesn't apply to the vast majority of role playing games at all, and to those that it does apply the question really comes down to what sort of setting you are trying to create. Would it be better for the coins to be doubloons, or dollars, or krugerands, or do you want  them to be diktar or galleons or some other fictional currency, or is it better to do them as generic gold coins and let referees decide whether such coins have a "name" in their setting. Note that "gold pieces" in D&D are valued by weight; the weights are standardized, but a gold piece is worth that amount regardless of what image is stamped on it because it is a tenth of a pound of gold. Thus you could have gold pieces from every nation in the world, all worth the same amount without respect to whose image is on it. That's a design choice to make the game world generic. If you want a generic game world, that's a good choice; if you want a world to have a particular feeling, it's probably better to name your money something, despite the fact that it's one more thing for people to learn. Of course, if you're doing a sci-fi world, you probably don't want to use gold coins at all--so the question becomes moot.

Still, if you stop to consider it, whether you use gold coins or gold doubloons or plastic diktar or computer credits has very little to do with functional game design; it has to do with flavor. I suspect that people who start with such questions are well on their ways toward designing their own fantasy heartbreakers, because these are questions of color, not of system.

Quote from: Next, youWhat kind of skills should "cat-people" have?

Again, this is really a setting question. Why should there be cat people? Is it because "cat people are neat, and players like them", or is it because they serve some function in the game design? If they serve a function, then they should be designed to best serve that function; if they are just color for the game, that's cool, but that's really a setting question. To answer a setting question of that sort, you really have to know the game tremendously well. For example, if I suggested I was going to add a race of tree people to my fantasy game, and wanted to know what those tree people should be like, you would have to know a great deal about what other races populated my world, what they were like, and why I wanted to add tree people to it. Without that context, the question is meaningless.

Quote from: Finally, youAre 12-sided dice better for skill checks or determining attributes?

This is indeed a design question; but in the void like this it can't be answered. We can tell you that 1d12 will provide a straight curve, with an 8.33% chance of rolling any given number on that line, and the chance to meet or beat a specific number easily calculated from that; we can tell you that 2d12 provides a peaked curve from 2 to 24 with the 1 chance in 144 each of rolling the extremes and 1 in 12 of rolling 13; we can't tell you how that relates to a game system about which we know nothing, beyond such things as straight curves produce rather unpredictable results and weighted curves provide more reliability in outcomes.

What color should I paint the bathroom, brown or blue? I don't know--what color are the fixtures and the tile? It's not just that it's a preference question; it's a context question, asked without the context.

Ultimately, if you're asking questions like this in the void, you're probably asking the wrong questions. It isn't until you've given a lot of thought to what your game is trying to do that you can even provide a framework for why these questions matter--and as often happens, once you've done that you can usually see the answer yourself, because you know what you're trying to design, and that will get you focused on what matters. Maybe the feeling of this world is best served by ignoring gold pieces and adopting pre-decimal British currency; maybe there's no standard coin anywhere, and you want moneychangers to weigh everyone's cash (and take a cut) whenever they cross the borders. Maybe the concept of cat people is that they are cunning and devious, and so need to have natural abilities in stealth; maybe cat people are a stupid idea that really are there because you like cats, and they should be thrown out entirely (as someone wrote here once, everybody seems to do cat people). Maybe the d12 is exactly what you want for checks, or even for attributes, but you'll have to have a much better understanding of what kind of check outcomes or attribute values you want to use in play.

So not to say it's a bad idea, but the answer to those sorts of questions is always going to be "it depends", at least until you've presented enough of your game idea for us to say, "Because of X in your design, Y makes more sense due to Z."

Does that make sense?

--M. J. Young

M J,

Thank you for the long response, but I think you missed the point of my post.

I think there needs to be some sort of "starting point" for "newbies" in order to AVOID questions like the ones I mentioned above.  I know they are subjective and depend upon setting, system, etc.  The point I was hoping to get across is that at this moment, The Forge is inadequately equipped to provide information for new members to formulate answers to those questions through already provided resources -- without having to search through the over 9,600 topics.  I have spent days pouring through at least 5,000 of those topics just to get up to speed with the Forge culture/ethos.

I was hoping that we, as a self-perpetuating community, might find a way to help the "newbies" navigate through the important questions of game creation before posting questions that have already been asked several times in various ways (hence the cat-people type questions).

So... I'm willing to try to search through the topics myself and post a listing of those that seem most appropriate to specific type of questions, but I think some sort of static resource which details questions that should be asked whenever someone wants to create a new RPG should be made available.

I am not the person to handle that.  I would hope that that resource would be un-biased towards any specific Creative Agenda, and instead seek to offer developers a "road map" of effective game creation.

With this kind of tool, the questions which arise on The Forge should be able to be relegated more towards specific theory and practical information that do not relate to subjective reasoning.

That's all for now.

Hi Kenneth,

...seek to offer developers a "road map" of effective game creation.

Y'know, I think this is a good idea. Because although there's certainly no single right path to design success, I think The Forge is optimized for a certain path...and for various reasons maybe it's not as well lit for new users as it should be. So, here's my thinking on the itinerary:[list=1][*]Get a basic familiarity with the concept of "Creative Agenda" (which until somewhat recently was called "GNS") and how it relates to "system does matter." I recommend first reading the http://www.indie-rpgs.com/_articles/system_does_matter.html">System Does Matter essay, which has the most basic explanation, recognizing though that the model has evolved and become more complex since that article was written. Then you should probably read at least the beginning part of the recent http://www.indie-rpgs.com/_articles/narr_essay.html">Narrativism essay, which has the most complete and current explanation of the model. Don't let yourself get bogged down in all the theory. All you really need is a basic understanding of the divisions of Creative Agenda, and a recognition that with very few exceptions design at The Forge is based on belief in system does matter. (Note that you do not personally need to buy into "system does matter." It is perfectly acceptable to pursue attempting to refute it through your own design efforts.)

[*]Start prowling around in both Actual Play, and Indie Game Design. Your goal is to gain an understanding of how Forgites post most meaningfully about actual play, and also to find game designs you're interested in playing. Recognize that not every thread in Actual Play and Indie Game Design is excellent. A meaningful Actual Play post has something to say. It comments incisively on social or mechanical aspects of play, and/or it asks questions. Logs of online games and chronicles of games offered without comment are, bluntly, junk. Check out a few of my own threads about play of http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=69">Theatrix, http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=1167">Chalk Outlines, and http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=689">the Pool for an idea of what I'm talking about.

Select a game, and gain an understanding of the nature of the play experience the designer is intending to deliver. Ask questions if necessary.

[*]Play the game, and post meaningfully about the experience in Actual Play. Do this with several games. Mix it up a bit. Select games that folks are having success with, as evidenced by their posts in Actual Play, and see if they work for you. Or if not, what you had to do during play to make them work. And also select games that have never been played before. Recognize that this isn't charity playtesting for the game designer. This is selfish on your part; some of the strongest and most productive design insights you'll have will come from experiences with various game mechanics that don't function as you or the designer thought they would.[/list:o]And that's pretty much it. Doesn't it sound like a roadmap for a prospective game creator?

What you'll be doing, actually, is cultivating a massive build-up of raw design agenda. And at a certain point it will become impossible for you to not fling off game designs like a young solar mass throws out planetary matter. You might think you're at that point now, but you're not. You're motivated by a desire for others to experience your ideas, or to be part of a hothouse design community, for some kind of recognition, or out of frustration with unsatisfying game experiences you've had. Where you want to be is motivated by the force of a whole design idea overtaking you mostly as a package, mechanics and bits of setting and presentation, in such a way that the opinions of other folks is entirely off your radar, and the frustration driving you is no longer your previous experiences, but your own current ability to articulate this thing that you've conceived.

And yeah, you can have design success by following other paths. But in my opinion, you aren't doing yourself any favors in the long term. Folks who skirt past Actual Play, bomb into Indie Game Design, and make a splash with a game and get a lot of indie cred and recognition, in my experience tend to have trouble duplicating the feat. And folks who just play GURPS, or D&D, because those are the only games their friends are interested in, or who just play Amber, or Nobilis, or maybe mostly just roleplay freeform, well that's like drinking your own urine. Yeah, you can do it, but your output isn't going to be anything anyone else is interested in drinking. Whatever it takes, you absolutely have to put yourself in the social position of playing a variety of unconventional games.

Paul

Hi Ken,

The most productive discussion usually occurs when a designer:

-Is clear on the goals of the design(what I want, and why I want it)
-Has some means of articulating it(with or without terminology)
-Is aware of some of the options as to not re-invent the wheel

For articulation, I recommend that anyone provide a concrete (if hypothetical) example to back up any subjective descriptions.  "Fun, Story based, Realistic, Action" means absolutely nothing to me, but an example of Riddle of Steel play does.  That's why coming up with a hypothetical example of "how play should go" before making mechanics is a great way for articulating your goals without having to learn the terminology.

Finally, play a lot of games.  Newbies might feel overwhelmed at the fact that they are often referred to other games to play or check out, and its not a plug for "Forge games", as much as it is a clear example of something done right to show the options.  Film students who want to be directors watch movies.  Painters study paintings.  Musicians study music.  If you want to design, study games.   You needn't even look at all games, simply a few based on your goals and needs for a design.

Chris

Quote from: Paul CzegeGet a basic familiarity with the concept of "Creative Agenda" (which until somewhat recently was called "GNS") and how it relates to "system does matter." I recommend first reading the http://www.indie-rpgs.com/_articles/system_does_matter.html">System Does Matter essay, which has the most basic explanation, recognizing though that the model has evolved and become more complex since that article was written. Then you should probably read at least the beginning part of the recent http://www.indie-rpgs.com/_articles/narr_essay.html">Narrativism essay, which has the most complete and current explanation of the model.

In my own humble experience, Systen Does Matter, does a good job of explaining the point in the title, even though it would have benefited from a little more elaboration. However it does a rather poor job of explaining the GNS modell, its one sentence about each mode, and quite open to (mis)interpretation. GNS and Other Matters of Role-playing Theory on the other hand, provides a good introduction to the model, and related forge-speak.

Perhaps a sticky newbie thread is a good idea? It should only be a couple of posts, perhaps only one, edited whenever necessary. The post would contain something like Paul`s points above. Links to etiquette/rules thread would probably be a good idea as well. In addition it should contain a number of links to important threads sorted by subject. There already are a number of threads with links to various other threads on the same subject, but if there is a hub somewhere, I havent been able to find it. The sticky about the infamous five, is a good example, but there really could be links to all sorts of important threads on frequent subjects.

A few comments:

1. I was under the impression that the Indie design forum was the place to discuss "Creative Process"-type questions. (Like "Should I use gold pieces or make up my own currency?") Is that correct?

2. An argument I could see for creating another forum would be that it might clear up "Creative Process"-type questions on the other boards.

3. Being fairly new myself I can confirm that the Forge is not very newbie-friendly. Some sort of introduction to the Forge would be helpful IMO. Either a sticky, or maybe an article or a FAQ.

I've posted a link to this before, so I apologize if I'm sounding repetitive, but this discussion of establishing a guideline for the creative process of game design reminds me of the American Institute of Graphic Arts' own solution to that problem (found here).

Their guideline has step-by-step considerations a designer should make when doing a project, but doesn't say that every designer should follow every step in that order, nor that every step should be followed, nor guarantee that every project follow every will end up being well-designed. However, they do provide good insights for designers young and old in their creative process, explicitly stating some of the implicit aspects of the process.

It would be neat if there were something like this for RPG designers: A concise, easily navigable guideline addressing the most common stumbling blocks of the creative process as it pertains to RPG design. Like the AIGA's guidelines, there might even be "case studies" for whatever guidelines the Forge devises. It's kind of a pie-in-the-sky, easier-said-than-done idea, but it would be very cool if executed.

Gobi,

Yes!  I think a systematized APPROACH to creating RPGs would be an invaluable help to all newcomers (and most likely other accomplished RPG designers) on The Forge.  Granted, we have some great essays, posts and discussions about the philosophy of gaming, actual play, design and all the other essentials, but most of these are immediately inaccessible for newbies.

It takes time for people to enter into valuable discussion without coming across as "ignorant" of the refined gaming prowess of the designers on this site.  I am in no way trying to define some sort of elitism as being present on The Forge, but rather a sense of "something other" that is not simply a rehash of D&D (Fantasy Heartbreakers) or other memorable RPG campaigns.

After reading through most of the older posts, it is obvious that many people come into The Forge with the idea that they can conquer the gaming world with their ultimate (and usually universal) RPG -- I was one.  Usually what happens is that the person quickly gets perspective thrust upon him and then quietly fades away from the Forge, never to be heard from again.

That's why we "NEED" a FAQ for Newbies regarding Game Design.  I was thinking of something along the lines of the "Fantasy Worldbuilding Questions" web page (I believe I owe thanks to John Kim's web site for the link)... http://www.sfwa.org/writing/worldbuilding1.htm

It would require a bit of time, but wouldn't it be more responsible of us as a community to try and help those who come to the site to gather a greater understanding of what it is they think they are doing before sending them out to the wolves (i.e. Indie Design forum, etc.)?  The feedback on the forums is terrific.  It would be great, though, if first time RPG design posters had the ability to examine what they were doing with probing questions before posting  in order to help them/us be better prepared to create better games.

It's not like long-time Forgeites don't "know" the probing questions to ask.  I see them asked frequently and appropriately, but it would be best if we had them outlined before dealing with them in posts in order to iron out the "bugs" of our systems and approaches before placing them before the "gang".

Anyway, thanks for reading more of my "drivel". :)


Non-sequitor of the evening:  And Bartles would like to say, "Thanks for your support."

This may sound snarky, but I'm in a rush. Sorry.

This is a really wonderful idea. I'm sorry that nothing's going to come of it.

"Why?" you ask. Because I see everyone saying "This is a great idea." and "This is something the Forge as a community needs" and no one saying "I'm going to do this."

We had easily half-a-dozen threads of someone saying "There should be an anthology of short indie games"  Nothin happened 'till Luke Crane said "I'm going to put out the No Press anthology."

We had innumerable threads saying "We need a Forge Lexicon" Nothin happened until Ron wrote his Simulationist essay, and wrote up the Forge terms, complete w/ links, at the bottom.

I may be throwing stones from my glass house, since I'm not saying that i'll put together a newbie-friendly welcome mat for the Forge, but I don't have the time. Sorry.

I'm just saying someone should seize this idea, make it theirs; mock up a rough draft; post it; let all of us rip it to shreds--er, criticize it; revise it; get Clinton to post it somewhere obvious, and thus enhance the value of the site.

It's a great idea. A shame no one seems to want to take ownership of it. [/rant off]

Edited to add: Communities don't get things done. People do.

Amen to that. If this is going to get done, someone needs to sit down and do it. I don't have the time, tho I'm happy to comment on such a work.

I'd volunteer to do it, but I have a habit of biting off more than I can chew. However, if I were to do it, I'd probably base it on the AIGA process since that's so close to what I do at school and work. That probably indicates a bias of some sort which would likely get in the way of making a useful model.

Fortunately, it seems Bankuei has taken up the reins for the task in this thread.

Seeing as we've passed 500 views and no one has yet to really vocalize ideas, and so far everyone seems to be in agreement that this idea (of a resource for creating rpgs) is a good idea, I propose we finalize the type of resource we should make available.

I propose that having several threads tied together answering sample questions is not the answer.  Instead, I think that a specific sticky or essay/article that delineates the appropriate questions (in outline form?) would be most appropriate.

The resource does not need to have much "explanation".  What it needs are "seed" questions with several follow-up questions to each topic to gently guide creators to a better understanding of what they are trying to do.

For example:
       What is your game about? [Bankuei's questions from http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=9979
subquestions:
What is so special about your game/what makes it unique?
Why would players desire your game above others?

Anyway, these are samples, Bankuei's thread is a good start, but I think that a very effective resource will handle a great many more questions than we've currently got on his thread -- to provide more in-depth personal inquiry before intial game postings.

A bien tot.

Seeing as we've passed 500 views and no one has yet to really vocalize ideas...

I most certainly really did. Folks just chose to talk around them.

Paul

Paul,

First of all, I'd like to apologize for my split infinitive.


As for your suggestions, while they are appropriate and invaluable, I think that they are too nebulous to a certain degree.  Sure, it's a great idea to read/post on "Actual Play" and actually play!  But for those who are coming to the Forge with ideas already formed (I imagine many of the newbies come to the Forge with "new" rpgs in hand) this process seems laborious and somewhat overkill for their needs.

What the newbies "need" (as I see it) is a specific document that addresses the questions they have most likely not addressed for themselves.   Then, after reading through this document, they can move on to the Forums and participate in the game play and previous posts to understand the Forge Community better.

The problem seems to be that the website does not provide a "user-friendly" experience for newbies to prune their own work before having to go through a lot of trouble wading through thousands of posts or having to present their ideas "cold" and having old Forge-ites rehash the "same-ol'-same-ol'".

My hope is that The Forge can make some sort of document/presentation to "streamline" the process for these people in order to make their transition into this community easier.

My 2 cents.