Our game group will be switching from vanilla Dogs to Banthas in the Vineyard in a few weeks, and I'd like to see what people have done, out there, to put a game into play, and find out what successes and failures they've had.
I have re-read the two Banthas threads on this forum, but the notes there are scattered and slightly incomplete.
Has anything been done since then?
I just thought of something disturbingly missing from discussions of Dogs/Jedi games.
How would you handle starship combat?
Does it automatically go to the "Blasters and lightsabers" escalation level, and stay there?
I'm trying to get a game of this started on RPG.Net, and my thoughts so far are:
--Keep the hierarchy of sins the same, but change "town" to "world"
--Change "guns" to "lightsabers"
--the Force will remain largely undefined, as the explanation for amazing stunts
We are still talking about how to handle the Dark Side.
For starship combat, perhaps you could take a leaf from the Firefly discussions, and make up the starship as a "character" with its own traits, and which can take fallout. Then starship combat is a matter of the PC starship-character vs. the NPC starship-character, with the PC's "helping" their starship in the fight. Does that make any sense?
Use the Starship as Equipment. (With maybe some special List of which size makes which number of d10s for that piece of equipment) Let the Character being the "Captain" of the ship use the Ship as Equipment, the others using only their Stats (probably Acuity & Heart/Will) + all their related Traits. (Maybe "I'm trained in using heavy ship artillery 1d8", "I am an absolvent of Republic Starfleet Academy 2d8" or just "I've learned to trust in the force 1d6" and use it to let yourself be "directed" to hit your target)
Dice for ships based on size/armor/armament/etc. might be
Fighter 1d10 1d6 (d10 for Size/Agility, d6 for Weapon Systems)
Bomber 1d10 1d8 (d10 for Size/Agility, d8 for Weapon Systems)
Trader/Traveller 2d6 1d4 (d6 for Size/Agility, d4 for Weapon Systems)
Gunboat 2d10 3d6 (d10 for Size/Agility, d6 for Weapon Systems)
Cruiser 4d10 2d6 (d10 for Size/Agility, d6 for Weapon Systems)
And so on... okay, this way, you would come to some dice, when using the Deathstar, but... might be fun ;) )
Given what I see on the screen, the pilot is the important thing when it comes to anything up to the size of the Millennium Falcon or the Ebon Hawk.
I'm going to use the standard crap/excellent/big rules for describing the ship as equipment, with an extra +1d4 if it's armed.
Anything from a cruiser up to the death star will be a setting, not a combatant.
The question is... When Darth Govak, with his two wingmen, all in Sith interceptors, come after the PC's in their lightly armed courier... how do we resolve the battle?
A thought occurred to me, that the stakes in Star Wars space battles are rarely "Do we kill him?" but more on the order of, "Do we escape into hyperspace before the tie fighters destroy us?" and "Do we destroy the Death Star before it blows up the Rebel Base?"
The stakes are usually not directly "i want to kill you, you want to kill me"
Quote from: Vaxalon on March 07, 2006, 04:55:41 PM
Does it automatically go to the "Blasters and lightsabers" escalation level, and stay there?
Dodging through asteroids is probably either d6 or d8.
Pulling up before you hit the shield that's STILL THERE! is d6.
Hiding by putting your ship up against their ship and floating away with the garbage is d4.
Quote from: Vaxalon on March 07, 2006, 06:24:54 PM
The question is... When Darth Govak, with his two wingmen, all in Sith interceptors, come after the PC's in their lightly armed courier... how do we resolve the battle?
Darth Govak gets his piloting traits, Blaster-and-Lightsaber dice, his Sith interceptor belonging dice, plus 2d6 and a trait for each of his wingmen. Distribute fallout just like you would for a mob.
Quote from: Vaxalon on March 07, 2006, 04:55:41 PMDoes it automatically go to the "Blasters and lightsabers" escalation level, and stay there?
Something like:
"This is Imperial Star Destroyer 'Bobsyouruncle' stand down and prepare to be boarded" = just talking
"They're trying to escape into that asteroid field, follow them!" = physical
"Attempt to attach tractor beam." = weapons (?)
"Fire all weapons" = blasters / lightsabres
I agree with Brendon--just use the group combat rules as they exist--and with Fred: use the equipment rules or make the ship a setting.
This thread comes at an opportune moment for me as my group is starting a game of Banthas week after next.
I'm still somewhat concerned about how to build a town (perhaps because I'm not really that familiar with the Star Wars setting). There could also be some issues because Star Wars operates mainly on an epic or mythic level, while Dogs is more focused on the personal and the community, don't you think?
I think it depends on what you really mean by "setting it in the Star Wars universe." Does that mean trying to recapture the Saturday-Matinee feeling of the movies at their best? I'm not sure Dogs is best suited for that.
I've figured "Banthas in the Vineyard" would, structurally, play very much like classic "Dogs", only using lots and lots of gorgeous Star Wars color.
Maybe the DITV Pride/Injustice/Sin progression could be rewritten using Yoda's "Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering" speech? The "what's wrong" is always some sort of imbalance in the force, and the players need to balance things out again?
QuoteMaybe the DITV Pride/Injustice/Sin progression could be rewritten using Yoda's "Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering" speech?
or, to put it another way, we should try to put links to the old Banthas in the Vineyard threads in any new Banthas in the Vineyard threads.
Quote from: dunlaing on March 09, 2006, 10:15:31 AM
or, to put it another way, we should try to put links to the old Banthas in the Vineyard threads in any new Banthas in the Vineyard threads.
That would be very helpful. I always take the time to do an exhaustive search of all previous posts before I bring up anything that might have been posted before. Sometimes it takes days of research before I can safely post anything to a new thread. This time I neglected to search the boards all the way back to a post on November 18, 2004 where my idea had already been mentioned. Sorry. My bad.
Oh, the snark! Oh, the humanity!
From the "alternate settings thread":
Banthas in the Vineyard: Jedi knights solving problems in the Outer Rim while resisting the influence of the Dark Side (http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=13410.0, http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=14311.0, http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=16956.0)
Both threads are worth reading or re-reading before postng. Some of the Firefly threads are also quite helpful.
Having just read that I think I am going to run a Banthas game too.
It seems that my local group is far more interested in Jedi than mormon/cowboy/gunslinger/judge/paladins. :( Ah well, I like Jedi too. :D
One thing that I don't remember being addressed in those threads (except lightly with no conclusion) or in any dogs thread or the book is dual weilding.
What happens when someone uses two weapons, either two guns in Dogs or lightsabers in Banthas?
Well, you get one set of dice for escalating to Guns, and also the dice that come with the possession "My trusty pistol 1D6+1D4". If you pull out a second pistol, you get the dice for the second pistol, too.
Here's a very nice thread on the subject:
http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=13170.0
I suppose lightsabers would work the same way, but why would anyone have two lightsabers, anyway? Even Darth Maul only had a double-headed one.
In the third movie, I believe there is dual wielding craziness. In KOTOR you can even use an offhand short saber.
I just thought of something.
The short saber lacks the d4 addition. It is only 2d6. Thus, you can get some extra oomph from using the extra large saber, but it is risky. I think that fits quite nicely.
As a note, I just thought of another addition to the setting.
You are young Jedi coming right out of the temple. You have received special training and instruction about the threat of the displaced Dark Jedi. However, there are lots of Jedi out there who do not know, have not been warned, or failed to heed the warnings. You may have to deal with Jedi that have been influenced by the Dark side through no fault of their own. Moral dilemma there.
It also helps reinforce part of the original Dogs idea, that the PCs are the ones who know best. It kind of frames the Jedi that haven't received your special training to the same role as Stewards, with the same possible failings.
What do you think?
That works, especially since the lines of communication for the Jedi would have been disrupted by the war.
I should be getting it started not this sunday, but the sunday after.
If you have any ideas between then (or you start yours first) please post!!!
Sorry about the double post, but something just popped into my head, about the Character Gen.
They have the four seperate types, how will we determine them for Banthas?
I figure the one with the complicated history would be a lateblooming street kid/scoundrel type.
I made four brand new backgrounds for my game; Monastic, Adept, Latecomer and Sith Turncoat.
Monastic grew up in the Jedi temple.
Adept grew up in a similar but not precisely the same tradition (usually nonhuman)
Latecomer grew up doing something else and came to the Temple as a teenager.
Sith Turncoat was trained on Korriban but then switched sides.
Sounds good. Did you map them to the standard character options, or did you make up your own?
Why do you need anything other than the 5 options presented? I mean, they're basically just different schema for distributing your dice among attributes, traits, and relationships. "Strong Community" works just as well for Jedi as it does for Dogs.
I did it slightly differently. I'm not sure if it's "balanced" or not, but I don't think I'll find out until I try it.
Monastics get only d4's for passions, a few d10s and d8's for traits, and lots of d6's for attributes.
Latecomers get bigger passion dice, smaller (but more) trait dice, and not quite as many d6's for attributes.
Adepts are in the middle.
Sith turncoats get BIG passion dice, and an assortment of large and small trait dice.
This is what I was talking about, Fred: you see how changing one thing leaks into changing others? Once balanced, you'll be on your way to a new game.
This is enthusiasm, not criticism.
Quote from: Vaxalon on March 15, 2006, 11:07:06 PM
I did it slightly differently. I'm not sure if it's "balanced" or not, but I don't think I'll find out until I try it.
Monastics get only d4's for passions, a few d10s and d8's for traits, and lots of d6's for attributes.
Latecomers get bigger passion dice, smaller (but more) trait dice, and not quite as many d6's for attributes.
Adepts are in the middle.
Sith turncoats get BIG passion dice, and an assortment of large and small trait dice.
Passions replacing relationships? Or something else entirely?
Fred,
Sith turncoat? Is there precedent for that? It's your version of SW and all, but I had the impression that the only way for a Dark Jedi to be redeemed was through self-sacrifice. And why are the Jedi clueless about the Sith if they've recruited turncoats?
By the way, this thread continues to be awesome, even in its fourth incarnation. I still want a "turn to the Dark Side" mechanic, which seems to run against the grain of the Dogs setup.
Anarchist:
Yes, passions replace relationships. Remember that in order for a passion to go from d4 to d6, it has to be attached to a person who is an obstacle for that passion.
Larry:
There sure is a precedent for it... Revan. Now he was a Sith master, so they had to mind-wipe him to be able to trust him, but I figure that lower-level initiates wouldn't need to be as
Remember, my game is set shortly after the destruction of the Star Forge, in the KOTOR era.
But the Revan case was a collossal failure, as not only did he end up turning against the Jedi and wiping them out, but he also managed to turn the Jedi who brainwashed him!
er, how did you play that game out?
Seriously though, I think the idea of a Sith turncoat should be very rare. I would counsel against allowing any NPC Sith turncoats. PCs are allowed to be exceptions to rules, though.
I still think that your backgrounds are barking up the wrong tree, though. I think the backgrounds from vanilla Dogs work just fine. I can imagine playing a Sith turncoat with any of the 5 DitV backgrounds. YM obviously does V though, so good luck and have fun!
Quote from: Vaxalon on March 17, 2006, 09:05:43 AM
Anarchist:
Yes, passions replace relationships. Remember that in order for a passion to go from d4 to d6, it has to be attached to a person who is an obstacle for that passion.
Hmm. I think you never actually posted how that worked. I have no idea what you are talking about. Can you give an example?
I think I may go a different route with mine.
http://www.google.com/www.story-games.com/forums
Actually:
http://www.google.com/www.story-games.com/forums/comments.php?DiscussionID=352
Shows not found.
Damn. Try this:
http://www.story-games.com/forums/comments.php?DiscussionID=352
Hmm. Does seem kind of complicated. I am not sure yet if I will pick it up or not.
I don't have any comments on it until it gets a bit more finalized. I just can't wrap my head around it yet.
There's a post at the end of that thread with my successful "Actual (character creation) Play" experience.