The Forge Archives

OK folks, let's talk about what worked and what didn't. Share your stories of success and failure here, too.

For the fans, please use this thread:
http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=20864.0

Thanks,
-Luke

Okay ... year-over-year success.  The difference between "Hey, can I tell you about our games?" (2005) and "Hey, would you like to play a game?" (2006) seems, at least from early feedback (http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=20864.0), to be the difference between "I like the booth but MAN, stop hard-selling me!" and "The booth was so friendly!"  A demo is in many ways the hardest conceivable sell, of course, but it's also fun, which takes the curse off.  That rocks.

Here's an experience/technique I will (probably) comment upon many times over the course of the next year:  I self-selected as a feeder of demoes.  I liked hanging at the corners, swooping down on folks who expressed interest with their body language and offering to fix them up with someone's table.  So I paid close attention when we made the shift on sunday to having game designers sitting at the table, and the demo-feeders started feeding for specific demoes.

I know how intimidating it can be to be asked "Hey, would you like to play in a random unspecified game, possibly one that you will need to choose from a long, long list?" so I figured that this change would be a big help to the demo-feeders.  I figured it would maybe double my conversion rate, netting me one out of five of the people I talked to, rather than one out of ten.

I was wrong.  It was much, much bigger than that.  At the lunch rush, when we had the most people wandering (as opposed to bee-lining across the hall) I was converting something like nine out of ten of the people I talked to.  It was like fishing with a shotgun.  A person would pause.  They would cast their eyes over all the fun being had at the tables.  I would note their wistful look, walk up and say "Hey, Ben Lehman's about to start a Polaris game, and needs another person.  It's ten minutes of wall-to-wall beheadings and illicit sex.  Want to play?" and they would simply nod, walk over and sit down.  And then I'd look for the next wistful soul needing help.

I do not know what refinements we will come up with in 2007, but I personally believe that they should be refinements on top of this basic model:  If someone is looking for a specific demo then, of course, we run it, and if that fills all the tables then great!  But when a table is empty for more than a minute or two, a designer sits down and sets up their stuff.  This cues the feeders to start grabbing people for that particular game.  If there are no designers sitting at tables, waiting for people, that cues the feeders to either (a) take a break or (b) remind designers that they should sit down at tables.

I have many positive things to say, but quickly, I wanted to comment on the one thing that friends and non-friends complained about: the shopping/browsing area. In, short nobody I talked to thought there was enough breathing room to browse the shelves of the booth. And then, when they were ready to buy something it was either difficult for them to get to the cash register or else awkward for them because they were forced to stand in front of someone else who was still attempting to browse.

Now I know this is a space issue, and trust me when I say the demo tables rocked both as a way to generate sales and in defining the mood of the booth, but if people can't get at the product then we have a problem. I know there was already some talk among the Forge Booth upper class, but I just wanted to re-emphasize the need to take a hard look at this problem before next year. Perhaps if the browsing area was re-located or else the books formed more into a wall along the outside of the booth rather than a little alcove sectioned off from the rest of the area? Maybe the register should be more towards the outside of the booth so that we could make use of the common area hallway to house the shopping line and leave the other people in the area free to browse?

I liked the set up MUCH better this year, with books and play areas well defined. The banner stands and posters were a bit of an issue, but when they were sorted out, it really worked, because I could stand in the book area and say "Wow, that's a great game. The author is right...there. Looks like he's about to start a demo; go jump in!"

People did a much better job of keeping personal stuff out of the booth. Having a wide aisle and then a solid wall directly across from the demo tables was fantastic! It gave a place for folks to hang and funnel people into demos without as much crowding.

Demos were tighter this year, it seemed. I didn't see folks sitting for an hour long 'demo' like last year. I missed the little tabletop bookholders, so the game being demoed was super clear to anyone who lingered to listen in. Having the game visible at the demo table is a big stroll-by pitch, because people pause, listen in, then go check it out at the booth. I know I sold at least two copies of 1001 Nights by having the book clearly visible on the table when I demoed, so if people were drawn in by the fun, they knew what book to look for.

Demo kits seemed like they got shoved around a bit - I heard people frantically looking for their stuff a couple times, and I ran without mine at least once. Also, there's a push-pull between demos that look awesome and interesting and inviting set up on a table (I'm thinking SAH-Roach, Best Friends, Primitive, Mechaton, and 1001 Nights) and ones that are more about the game (Burning Wheel, Dogs, Sorcerer, PTA). Every time I could leave my stuff up, I'd have a new set of folks to demo to in *moments*, because of the visual impact. I know we can't do this for all games, but book stands would help. For roll-over of demo space, having more clearly defined kit storage would be good.

We never got anything organized about advertizing Games on Demand, so far as I know, and I think we really need a big ol' sign about that - it's super cool, and it sells games.

Echoing Tony, this absolutely works.  There were several times when I told one of the ropers that I was sitting down to run my game and needed players, and by the time I looked up from sorting my kit, I invariably had a pair.  Everybody worked together very well and helped each other.

I had one guy ask me what Capes was, motioning to the prominent banner, and it became clear that he thought we were "the Capes booth" because our signage wasn't very clear and the Capes banner was the only thing really visible.  Next year we should think about signage and having a prominent booth identity.  The Forge banner is great, but a very prominent banner that basically tells the story of the booth:  COME PLAY AN INDIE RPG or something would be good.  I didn't think the booth told a story to somebody walking past - what were we playing?  How could I join?  Is this connected to Wicked Dead or the Forge or both?  Who the hell are these people?

It'd be great if the table closest to the sales area racks could be available for demoing, so you could just sit people down immediately instead of threading around to an open table.

I echo Meg's comments on table tents or some other way to indicate game-in-play for onlookers.  Just daydreaming, but it'd be cool to have a laminated cardstock sign that you could affix to a pole or something.  That would be attention getting and memorable. 

Alexander Newman is a fantastic person.  He was invariably cool and collected and worked very hard for all of us.  Thanks, dude!  Next time I want to game with you.  That said, I bet you can sell and pitch games very well, and I wish you'd been out there instead of chained to the register.

My GenCon rocked, and a good chunk of that was the booth experience.

Take all of the following with the awareness that it was 90% awesome and smooth, and this is the 10% that was merely 'ok'.

-The Great Wall of Designers.  Worlds, worlds better than last year, but we still tended to clog the long aisle.

-Related to that, the Great Lunch Desertion.  On most of the days, between 12 and 2, the number of folks available to rope, shill and demo went from 20 to about 6, it seemed.  It was commented on a bit, and Sunday was better, but we need to remember to stagger breaks a bit better.  We do NOT need a formalized schedule, I dearly pray, but we do need to be a bit more 'group-aware' about when we take our breaks.

-As Tony noted, the basics of roping and shilling were much better this year.  One thing I will note is that we always had two or three folks hanging out to shill at the sales block, but we rarely had two or three people roping folks into demos.  That ratio should probably change around.

-Demo length.  Most folks were pretty good, but there were a bunch of demos that I noted running over time, some of them by a lot.  I can't really point to any specific games or demo folk, just that I know there were several times when I thought "wow, it's been a long time since a table changed over"  I think we could have turned over a lot more demos if we'd been a bit more aggressive on our time lines.  (8 tables, 8 hours, 15 per demo plus 10-15 for table changeover and roping means we should be able to rotate well over 100 demos through every day, and I don't think we were managing that.)

-Totally my own fault: I did not sell my own fucking game.  I had a couple one-off sales, but other than that my sales were directly proportional - and I do mean directly as in 1-to-1 - to my own pitching and demoing.  I know I sold and pitched a lot of other folks games, but this is a reminder to me (and to anyone else who did the same) that I need a little more self in my enlightened interest.  


Ok, now for the above and beyond awesomeness:

-IPR.  Stock and cash handling was completely transparant to me this year.  I gave you a box of stuff, I counted the games I walked away with, and somewhere in the middle of that my games showed up on the shelf, there were customers and a cash register in there somewhere, but I didn't have to care about any of that.  

-Mutual support.  This year we maintained and kept very alive that spirit of "Your game is awesome!"  I don't mean this in any kind of masturbatory "Aren't we the bomb!" kind of way, either, but in a genuine strong postive feedback where it is deserved and strong negative feedback where it is deserved.  I saw both of these over the weekend, and it was never masturbation for the former or an attack for the later.

thanks,

James

The booth was a vast improvement over last year. (Last year being the one I observed from across the aisle while I tended the BDG/IPR booth.) I'm happy to have rolled these two forces together. The fact remains: The booth needs more space!

The Forge has fully grasped the power of the demo. We are squeezing a lot out of that marketing vector. However, we are woefully short on another, potentially equally fruitful vector: the browser. For browsing, the Forge booth -- to be blunt -- sucked. There were many times when people couldn't get to books they wanted to buy let alone giving people a chance to leisurely flip through a number of offerings before making a selection. And let's face it, the quality of the offerings has improved so dramatically that this is a real avenue now. Some of these books are gorgeous and gripping, and there are a vast number of consumers that never get a chance to even see them.

Next year, I think the stock portion of the booth should be twice the size it is now. Obviously, that means more money. However, with so many participants, the cost can be further amortized. I'm guessing it wouldn't take more than $25 per participant to get another 10x10 space. We can also further expand the two-tier system, having some participants pay more for better shelf space.

All in all, though, very nicely done by everyone. Brennan and Alexander are the very apotheosis of professionalism.

As someone who was at the how selling a game but not at the Forge booth I can say that I was very, very impressed by the set up and how well the booth seemed to function. Every time I was over there someone asked me to try a game or engaged me about a game. Both the demos I participated in were fast and functional, gave me a good idea of what both games were about and made me walk away wanting to buy both. It all seemed very impressive and very well put together.

Fantastic job. Wish I had participated instead of sitting on the sidelines.


Jake

The support we gave each other was, in a word: awesome. People pitched each others games, demoed them, particpated in demos with customers and generally rocked.

The atmosphere at the booth was phenomenal: the excitement, enthusiasm and thoroughgoing bonhomie was amazing.

Sales: Cracking amount of stuff getting shifted, a credit to all who were there.

Brennan, Alexander and everyone else who worked the register and re-stocked were brilliant.

As others have said, the sales area got a bit crowded at times, making it difficult for people to browse.

Cheers
Malcolm

I don't think a bigger sales area would help.  And given that total revenue was up 50% over last year the lack of browsing space certainly didn't hurt us.

I'll actually offer a counter.  If people are haveing trouble browsing because its crowded...GOOD.  Wall to wall people crammed into a booth to buy books sends a very very positive signal...a "hey, there must be something really awesome going over there" signal.  I spent ALOT of time wandering the floor this year and can safely say NO other booth, including the big CCG and Fantasy Flight space had as high a population density for as extended a period of time as we did.

There's nothing wrong with making the sales experience a little bit difficult for the customer.  Its standard retail practice.  That's why stores put the stuff everybody wants in the back so customers have to travel through lots of stuff they didn't know they wanted to get there.  Its why grocery stores often put high customer pull items in poorly marked hard to find areas, while high advertising push items are on end caps.  Its why car dealers make you wait while the sales guy "talks to the manager".

Now I'm not suggesting we should engage in any of those practices.  Just pointing out that a little bit of effort on the part of the customer isn't really a bad thing that needs to be fixed.

Quote from: Valamir on August 15, 2006, 08:49:04 PM
If people are haveing trouble browsing because its crowded...GOOD.  Wall to wall people crammed into a booth to buy books sends a very very positive signal

Yes, but having the cash register behind those milling masses is a problem in terms of putting two activities ("Go buy books" and "Browse") into conflict.

Quote from: Valamir on August 15, 2006, 08:49:04 PMThere's nothing wrong with making the sales experience a little bit difficult for the customer.  Its standard retail practice.  That's why stores put the stuff everybody wants in the back so customers have to travel through lots of stuff they didn't know they wanted to get there.

I'd almost think about how to Disney-Land the experience.  Like, instead of an open area where you have to mill and jostle, we could have racks set up so that people walk through them, in a queue which ends at the cash register.  If, that is, we could figure out a way to construct pull-out zones for folks who wanted extra information to step aside and talk with booth staff.

Seems to me that a great big "Enter at point A, proceed to point B" structure could, in theory, (a) eliminate any traffic snafu and (b) help people to get more (and better!) browsing done more quickly.

I have exactly zero thought, at the moment, about how to implement such a structure in practice.  But hey, we're game designers.  Making these sort of human systems is what we do, right?  It's something I'll have simmering on the backburners of my mind for at least the next few months (unless someone scoops me and creates a system that clearly works).

Quote from: Valamir on August 15, 2006, 08:49:04 PM
I don't think a bigger sales area would help.  And given that total revenue was up 50% over last year the lack of browsing space certainly didn't hurt us.

I'll actually offer a counter.  If people are haveing trouble browsing because its crowded...GOOD.  Wall to wall people crammed into a booth to buy books sends a very very positive signal...a "hey, there must be something really awesome going over there" signal.  I spent ALOT of time wandering the floor this year and can safely say NO other booth, including the big CCG and Fantasy Flight space had as high a population density for as extended a period of time as we did.

This is a fair point, but if we wanted to keep the same rough sales *area*, but medicate the cramped quality a bit, it might make sense to just give it one side, basically one long line of shelves stretching two cube areas (especially if the Wicked Dead products are mixed in next year), with that area being *open* to the demo area.  Might allow for a greater fluidity of people demoing games and then standing up to acquire them.  But I dunno if the sales-folk would feel that that's less "secure".

If we have the browsers at racks that are just open to the demo floor, my concern is we will have people camping out and seting their stuff on demo tables, and more theft.

What if we had a demo area like this year, then a long wall of books with a cash register at one end and stringers at the other and a curtained rail between the browse-and-buy place and the demo floor. That way a pesron could see all the pretty covers from the aisles around and from the demo floor, and they could either go straight to the books or stop for a demo. Yes, I know this is presuming a larger booth (basically including the Wicked Dead space), and may not be what we want, but seeing the books from the demo floor (and vice versa) would be a good thing.

Here's some thoughts, hopefully phrased as solutions rather than problems.

Did anyone else come up short on inventory? One of my books apparently walked off without being paid for.

I'm not really upset, as my printing costs are pretty low, but I'm wondering how much of a potential problem the crowd density might be in that case. If there was a way we could arrange it so that buyers would have to get past the register in order to leave the books area, that might offer some theft control. I'm thinking a bit of a bottleneck where you enter and exit the browsing area.

As for the signage problem, we could consider next year creating some standards to plant in the corners that only describe the booth and not anyone's game in particular. OR... how about this: We put a couple of brochure racks in the corners, and that's where we can plant our tri-folds and other advertisements. Those things are kind of expensive, though, at least the ones I found, so maybe that idea is too difficult to execute.

Also, if we commandeer the space held by Wicked Dead, that will open up a lot of room for individual game signage along the back.

I might also suggest a signage size restriction based on buy-in, and an arrangement that keeps the same signage up all the time, so that if you're a primary you can have a full poster, and if you're a 100 or 200, you can do something more like 12 x 18 or something. I think it would be way cooler to have as many games as possible advertised all the time, rather than a handful on rotation.

The demo space is clearly awesome. One thing I was thinking about, that I didn't see this year, was something Ron has done for Sorcerer demos. A sort of plastic book display, so people who pass by can easily tell what's being demoed. Here's an example: http://www.footprintpress.com/stand.htm

One per table, angled toward the aisle? Yeah.

Quote from: Matt Wilson on August 16, 2006, 10:27:07 AM
I might also suggest a signage size restriction based on buy-in, and an arrangement that keeps the same signage up all the time, so that if you're a primary you can have a full poster, and if you're a 100 or 200, you can do something more like 12 x 18 or something. I think it would be way cooler to have as many games as possible advertised all the time, rather than a handful on rotation.

I had a few 16x20 posters that I printed through Cafe Press on hand, but I didn't get them hung at the booth (since I didn't buy in this year (I was too late for it), I didn't feel right pushing).  But I think that's pretty good as a standard small-poster size.

When I did run demos at the Lulu booth, I laid out said poster as a table surface that I did the game on top of.  Said poster for DRYH has a number of "pull quotes" talking about what people have liked about the game.  Did a nice job, I think -- while someone was watching the demo, they were also reading good press about the game.

I'd definitely like to see the bookstand thing in force as well.  Looking at how Lulu laid out their books in their booth, the ones on stands were definitely what were catching walk-by eyes and pulling them in, while the books laying flat on the table were less of a draw.

Again with the caveat that anything not mentioned was 1000% awesome.

As a sales stringer, my biggest problem was feeling like I had to find the designer to run a demo of a game. There were a couple of times that I asked around for someone else to run a demo, and was met with general confusion and uncomfortableness. I was part of this problem! There were a handful of games that I think I would have felt comfortable demo-ing, but as fate would have it they were never in need of my services (1001 Nights, Heros Banner, and I probably could have made something up for Mortal Coil). Also, the demo kits were tough to access. Maybe next year we could have a rack of some kind in the demo area just to keep demo kits on? I know there's a space issue, but a display with clearly labeled demo kits would both help us run demoes of each others games, and be cool advertising to passerby.

Also, sometimes I felt like I didn't see booth monkeys a lot (except Jasper, but that man's a freaking machine. And hard to miss). This may well be because I was in the sales or demo area a lot, and trying not to hang around the fringes, but it's a perception that's stuck with me.

My suggestion for both of these: a condition for booth monkery is that you must learn some demos. Knowing that my first step for getting a demo should be asking a monkey would be good knowledge. This is in addition to having organized "learn another demo" time for everyone.

I think there's an optimum size for the sales area that is bigger than what we had this year but smaller than taking up another quarter of the booth. If myself and another sales person were both talking to a customer, that would clog the area, and that was bad. Maybe actually expanding down into the demo area a touch, just to get more width, would work. This year, we basically had a square of floor space. Making that into a rectangle with the long side facing the passerby would be good. And figuring out how to get the cash register to the outside would be good for flow as well, I think. I know I saw people walking out of the sales area to do a demo while holding unpurchased stock (that they later purchased!) - but it was an easy thing to do.

The stickers were awesome. I got 99% yes rate to the question "Can I put a Forge sticker on your badge to express our thanks for your purchase?" And it was very helpful to be able to look at a badge and ask if they were coming back for something, instead of asking the same person over and over if I could show them something.

So them's the thoughts.

Quote from: Nathan P. on August 16, 2006, 10:53:43 AM
My suggestion for both of these: a condition for booth monkery is that you must learn some demos. Knowing that my first step for getting a demo should be asking a monkey would be good knowledge. This is in addition to having organized "learn another demo" time for everyone.

I suspect that the major barrier to demoing is not that people didn't get a chance to learn the demo.  The major barrier to demoing is that first demo ... the one where you know you're going to blow it, in front of real, live customers.  I saw people going through some serious contortions in order to avoid that completely necessary experience.

I suspect that if we said on Thursday "Barring customer request you may not demo the same game twice in a row ... and yes, that means that you can't demo your own game twice," it would have a huge impact.  It would also make people very uncomfortable.  I guess it's a question of priorities.

Quote from: TonyLB on August 16, 2006, 12:32:24 PM
I suspect that if we said on Thursday "Barring customer request you may not demo the same game twice in a row ... and yes, that means that you can't demo your own game twice," it would have a huge impact.  It would also make people very uncomfortable.  I guess it's a question of priorities.

That could be minimized if people got their "what's the one other game you'll learn the demo for" assignments in advance of the con, and had a chance to practice it on their friends.  Frex, I'd be happy to learn, say, Agon in addition to my Don't Rest Your Head demo.

Though, point of order -- I could demo DRYH and Spirit of the Century back to back, not be demoing the same game twice, and yet still be demoing my game each time. :)

Regarding demos:

1. I agree with Nathan that one of the problems about demo set-up was access to the demo kits.  That was a confusing mess, and some of the designers started carrying the kits with them which meant they were not available for anyone else to use.  We had similar problems last year.

2. I also agree with Tony; getting over that first-demo fear can seem impossible, but it is not insurmountable.  We need to help each other out with this -- I would never have run my first Forge booth demo (kill puppies, a couple years ago) if it weren't for Paul and Ralph insisting that I must.

3. I was asked by customers for demos of two games that I knew nothing about, and I could not locate anyone else in the booth familiar with these games.  I later noticed that in the Forge menu that they did not have the asterisks indicating that a demo would be available.  I felt a bit stupid about that and realized that I needed to be more careful about offering the possibility of a demo that would not be forthcoming. 

Julie

As you might suspect from my Origins booth report, I've got lots to say. Please bear in mind that I am writing without acrimony, blame, axe-grinding, or anything else. Problems identified are, as far as I'm concerned, merely things to consider as challenges for next year, to be added to a checklist, or logistical exercises to solve in the months ahead. None of this discounts from the enormous gratitude I feel for the many people who helped out in every which way. As I mentioned to several of you, one of the things that I admire most about this community is something I believe can be directly attributed to the Forge and its moderation: an atmosphere of open and constructive critical feedback. I'm not going to talk much about stringing, roping, shilling or demo-ing, because I think those are being admirably covered. I'm (almost) all about the logistics today. So here goes, in roughly chronological order, with tangents:

- Yes, the sales booth was crowded. It took me a while to realise this, and when Thor first pointed it out to me, I was in denial. From my frequent perspective at the register the sales area was busy, and I had a near-constant stream of customers: ideal, right? Well, no. Very good, but not ideal. When I took a better look on Sunday, it was clear that we simply weren't doing as much business as we could, because of our layout. I still think it would have been very hard to improve the sales arrangement, given the way the booth was laid out this year, but we can definitely do better next year, and we will. Selling out of half-a-dozen or so titles was cool. We were within shelf inches of selling out of a bunch more, though, and that would be way cooler. Also, we can reduce the sensitivity of product placement. We did With Great Power... particularly - and some others - wrong.
- Laying out all the booth space is a non-trivial task. Bear in mind when making suggestions that there are at least five logistical elements to juggle: stock, demos, display, register, and the line (which should not become The Wall in front of display nor demos). You can also add in banners/posters if you feel like it, because if you can't see them from the aisle, you might as well have them back in your room. I will be reading some papers about retail display and stuff over the next year, if you run into any good ones, send 'em my way, please!
- The hall was abominably hot on Wednesday. As a big old hippy, I understand and approve of the energy-efficiency thought process. Be warned for next year, however, peeps!
- It was, however, totally unacceptable that the hall was not air conditioned at 8am the following morning. This has to be fixed for next year, or whoever is working at 8am that day has to be able to go shower before working the booth. Please can we feedback to Gen Con and the Indy convention center expressing our extreme displeasure that they made us smell bad. That is not OK.
- Folding the menus was a breeze. Thanks to Tim, Dave, Michael and all the others that helped fold, and Kevin for the bone folder (note to self: get more bone folders (http://www.paper-source.com/cgi-bin/paper/402290.html?cm_id=2270.010) for next year).
- We didn't have a good plan for the get-in. We managed fine, but it took too long, and that's not necessary (as we saw Sunday). One of the big problems was:
- The floor was almost the last to arrive, c. 8 hours after the first of the boxes, and consequently a lot of productivity was deferred to a point when many of us were knackered from the heat. The check-in was hurried and exhausting, we didn't get to plan stock... there were a number of problems that followed on from not having a plan on Wednesday, and then not having the floor: we couldn't do anything to set the booth up without it. Greg, thank you with all my heart for organising and transporting the floor (and eewwwww on the bambplosion on the way back). Let's get some conversations going about how to move the floor closer to Indianapolis over the next year, perhaps incrementally, and storing it nearer to the con, so we don't have this problem in the future.
- On the plus side, the floor was a good thing, I thought, and laying it was a breeze - thanks to everyone who did so.
- Stock arriving on Thursday morning is a bad thing.
- The Gen Con-provided chairs were fucking terrible. I will gladly contribute to the purchase of more of the sturdy Forge-chairs. MSM's little red chairs are good, too.
- Communication on Wednesday was bad. I ran in to Judd on my way back to the hotel at some point, struggling up the street with the big blue box o'Mu. I was only too happy to help carry it into the exhibition hall, as would any number of other Forge exhibitors. I would have been a lot happier if he had my number on a contact list and could have called me to ask for help all the way from his hotel. Yes, I volunteer to create a contact sheet (with ETAs) next year).
- Unloading the van was good, but stupid. We charged off to carry stock, when we should have been charging off to collect trolleys on which to wheel stock. There's no need to give yourself a hernia before the con starts, people.
- Counting the stock in was a good thing, and thanks to Nathan, Jason, Tim, and - my memory fails me - everyone else who helped with the counting in the sweltering hall until late on Wednesday. I know of only one certain bit of shrinkage - as Matt has said, one copy of PTA walked from the booth (kinda flattering, neh?) - but the count-in will help us assess whether there was more. This will be an important datum when considering the layout of next year's booth.
- Some folks brought (re-)stock for IPR as well as stock for the convention. This was OK, but Michael, Kat and Dalys ended up going home with more than they came with in the stock minivan, which could be a problem, and it was ass to have them all in the big pile'o'stock to manage in the hall. We were severely hampered by not knowing what and how much people were planning to bring, and what shape it would take. We should know well in advance what's coming to the booth, and IPR re-stock should not be counted in, it should be kept in your room, and brought to the booth at 4pm on Sunday. I don't know if this is a designer communication problem, an IPR communication problem or what, but let's fix it for next year.
- Which brings me to book sizes. This will not be popular. Look, there is an excellent reason for Capes and WGP... to be the size they are. Likewise the Sorcerer family. And, believe me, I appreciate the aesthetic sensibilities that go into the design of these awesome books (hey, I'm flaming... what do you expect?) But so many of the new books at the booth were 1/8th or 1/16th of an inch too tall for the racks. Plain and simple. The racks are pretty standard size... so please trim some more off your stock's vertical height. It's practical. You want the book on the shelf, right? There are only so many spaces at the top of the rack, and if you can only fit there, you will not be there all the time. We just don't have room. Also, it makes me bleed inside when books get damaged cos they're shoved in where they don't fit. This will be even more important if/when a stock storage solution is implemented next year.
- The Shock: / 1001 Nights / Push / Agon / It Was a Mutual Decision / Primitive / Brick Battles sizes were - contrary to my fears, actually very good to have out. But if everyone has books that size, it will be end up being a problem. Bloody artists.
- The banners and stuff were bollocks. All that lovely work was basically wasted. They looked shoddy. Also, the white/green/red of the Indy convention center is puke. This needs serious work for next year, some planning and some - gasp - standardization. Just like what Wilson said while I was typing. IPR didn't get a banner up at all, which is not good or fair, I think. Less artsy-fartsy and more pragmatic on the display materials, people. It does no good being beautiful and invisible.
- Banners / posters are worth it. I overheard an unaffiliated punter remark how much bigger the booth looked on Friday, saying we'd rearranged it: we hadn't, it was a visual illusion from the banners. Giving the feeling of a bigger booth is a good thing.
- As at Origins, the whole display area (in the minutes when it was empty, before opening and after closing) looked fucking awesome. The quality of product, the quantity of conscious and attractive design - there's something at the booth to draw every eye, and that's great. Really. I wish I had taken a few minutes to clear everyone out of the booth (again) and photograph the games on the shelves, because the were dazzling.
- We had a box of clear display stands that stayed in the box, which sucked, because they should have been on the demo tables holding books. I forgot them until Sunday. My bad. One on every demo table would have been a good thing.
- Greg's folding glass/metal rack thingy was cool-looking but seemed flimsy and prone to getting knocked over. There must be a better way to place it, or it should stay home, I fear.
- T-shirts were a pain in the ass, because there was no thought for display, and we really didn't have the means to show them off. I'm not sure what to do about this.
- Demo-ers should have taken at least two copies of what they were demo-ing to their tables... and vets, when you bag a table for your demo days, take a stack. There is no reason that the end of the demo should not be the moment you put the book in their hands. Booth staff will need to be vigilant about punters who have unpaid-for books in their hands.
- As requested when assembling the menu, I am avoiding the term 'monkey' for booth staff. Be aware that some exhibitors find it derogatory.
- Bags. We must have bags. Cheap-o flimsy badged ones for the I-just-tried-Dogs-and-it-must-be-mine crowd, and nice, sturdy bags for the OMFGWTFBBQ-I-just-dropped-four-hundred-fucking-dollars crowd. This helps with shrinkage and goodwill. It's a must. It's also ridiculously easy to sort out - it just takes time and a volunteer. Yes, I know. I just volunteered.
- The register area was kinda messy, which is unprofessional, and I didn't like that. It needs a little more space, all of it's own.
- It was good that everyone had their crap out of the booth. It was bad that demo kits got shoved behind racks - it looked shoddy. I recommend you invest in a thing of organisation for your demo kit, like Tony's Capes kit, Michael's Enrichment demo, Luke's leaden vinyl folder of death and laminate, James' death hat, and so on. Hit Staples for expanding wallet accordion things (like the one I have that none of you saw that I can't find on their damn web site), and look at tackle boxes for demo dice. Especially things with straps. You should ideally be able to carry your demo around comfortably with you all day. (There are obvious exceptions for, like, Toveys.)
- Also, things like Meg's bowls and James' hat are good visual draws; is there something similar you could use?
- One criticism of demo tables: work on getting up from the table, away from the table, and your punter to the register faster. Particularly the up-and-out-of-the-table part. Pack up quicker. You don't need to sort your bits of paper into their perfect places right there and then (although it helps if you're optimised to do so), you can sort your shit out away from the table. Increase throughput.
- The menus moved... and we'll see how well they worked, I think, by comparing the post-Gen Con sales bounce year-on-year. Obviously, I think they were gorgeous and wonderful, but they needed bigger advertising for GoD next year, and it should be clearer where to go for after-sales. I am keen to hear critical feedback on the document.
- I know it's been brought up before, but with the amount of stuff the Forge is accumulating (chairs, floor...) are we getting close to making long term storage in Indianapolis (http://www.google.com/search?q=indianapolis+long-term+self+storage) a cost-effective and sensible thing? I recognise that I have just volunteered to do some research.
- Stock handling in cardboard boxes was ugly. It worked, thanks to Paul, Danielle, Tim, Jason Morningstar, and many others, but it was not pretty. Labelling all the boxes on all sides helped, but still, we took up about 1/8th of the (extremely gracious) Wicked Dead booth, filled a table at Lulu.com, and had two boxes tucked away in a hotel room that we forgot. It was my bad that I did not keep track of where the stock for each book went, so at some point Perfect vanished for a bit. We can also do much better with stock storage next year, I think, but that requires a fairly substantial investment from the booth's retail partner.
- Last year, I was a customer upset by the hard sell, with friends who were very put off by the same. This year was so much, much better, I congratulate everyone. The booth has a reputation for steady improvement, and this year was no exception. That new folk grokked what was necessary so well (Nathan, Joe, Tim C. K., Jason M., John H. spring to mind) is kudos-worthy.
- Wednesday night demo night was cool. But Wednesday all-day demo sessions would be better at the nice cool air-conditioned tables outside the entrance hall. If the booth check-in is functioning more smoothly, there's no reason why not to congregate there and stay on-hand for assistance in the hall as needed. Plus, I would have very much liked to demo more than the three or four games I did get to test-run. ::wipes tear::
- I enjoyed leading that short vocal warm-up on Friday morning. I regret that I only managed it on Friday morning, because I think it would have helped everyone throughout. I'll go (further?) out on a limb and say that planning to hold the warmup after the morning meetings had one flaw, due to a very unprofessional aspect of the meeting: attendence. I don't think it's OK to be late for that meeting, and I don't think it's OK to be absent, either. This is partly my theatre background rearing it's ugly drama queen head. In my glorious vision of the future, next year the meeting is 15 minutes at 8:30, and there's a 15-minute vocal warmup at 8:45am. I honestly think you won't regret it. Go back to bed if you must, but be there for the meeting.
- Selling out is good... but that should not mean that your game just vanishes. I strongly encourage designers to laminate a (trimmed) copy of their cover with "SOLD OUT: GET ME ONLINE" or "ASK FOR MORE STOCK" or something standard that can be put on the shelves.
- Last minute additions to the booth stock, the booth menu, the register, etc. were steaming piles of shite for me, Ralph, Michael and Brennan. It's the old 80/20 rule: 80% of the work being caused by 20% of the stock. It was not OK to be adding things to the menu at midnight, the morning before catching an 8am flight to Indianapolis.
- The get-out worked well, but more due to my megalomaniacal streak and rabid improvisation than any forethought, I fear. It was awesome how well everyone pitched in at the end, really awesome. When I tell you that we had no more boxes, and were basically done at the booth at 4:32pm, that's how awesome it was. Also, no injuries (to my knowledge). What wasn't awesome was that it was improvised, that there were a couple of unnecessary breakdowns in communication, and that some things got left/lost. I think everything made it back in to the van eventually, and 99% of it went where it was supposed to go, but we still had to repack the van on Monday morning, and Michael S Miller finally tipped the scales for canonisation. Next year, there will be a plan issued at the Sunday morning meeting.
- Thursday is not a day like any other day. It has the most sales, and a different audience. It is worth considering whether the booth should be configured for the target audience's convenience on Thursday, and then re-configured for the remainder of the show.
- We need a better plan for the bits'n'bobs (with no disrespect to Under the Bed, Bacchanal Dice, Japanese Dice, etc.) that clearly distinguishes them from the swag, flyers and cards (BE stickers, BE pins, Go Play stickers, Dust Devils flyers, Timfire bookmarks, etc.) Having things for people to take away is a good thing. Having them mixed up with stuff they must pay for is a bad thing. Also, if we have bags next year, we can also have bag-stuff (and bag-stuffing. Oy.)

That's it for now on the logistics!

To reiterate: I had a great time at the convention. It makes me very happy to help sell great games to people who will get great pleasure out of them. Everyone worked hard, and that hard work paid off. I want it to pay off even better, next year, and I am committed to making that happen.

One final, personal, thing. I feel like I didn't play much, and that makes baby Alexander cry. I was pretty tired most days, and it felt like I frequently missed the opportunity to partake of the good gaming... that may be my memory playing tricks, but next year, kind folk, please spare a thought - and a seat - for the staff, who also love games.

love and hugs
Alexander

QuoteWhich brings me to book sizes. This will not be popular. Look, there is an excellent reason for Capes and WGP... to be the size they are. Likewise the Sorcerer family. And, believe me, I appreciate the aesthetic sensibilities that go into the design of these awesome books (hey, I'm flaming... what do you expect?) But so many of the new books at the booth were 1/8th or 1/16th of an inch too tall for the racks. Plain and simple. The racks are pretty standard size... so please trim some more off your stock's vertical height. It's practical. You want the book on the shelf, right? There are only so many spaces at the top of the rack, and if you can only fit there, you will not be there all the time. We just don't have room. Also, it makes me bleed inside when books get damaged cos they're shoved in where they don't fit. This will be even more important if/when a stock storage solution is implemented next year.

Could we get the physical dimensions on those problem ones?  DRYH fit in fine, at 6"x9".  I see on IPR that WGP clocks in at : 6-5/8 x 10-1/4 inches -- and that's a "standard" comic book profile.  The only formats I know to exceed 9 inches in height are comic book style (6.625x10.25) and letter (8.5x11).  Perhaps WGP et al should get put in the rack that fits the letter profile ones?

QuoteSelling out is good... but that should not mean that your game just vanishes. I strongly encourage designers to laminate a (trimmed) copy of their cover with "SOLD OUT: GET ME ONLINE" or "ASK FOR MORE STOCK" or something standard that can be put on the shelves.

This is, pardon me, a fucking brilliant idea.

Quote from: iago on August 16, 2006, 01:30:49 PMCould we get the physical dimensions on those problem ones?  DRYH fit in fine, at 6"x9".

No, it didn't, sorry. DRYH was a squeeze that survived without grave damage, but only just. It needed less than a 1/16th of an inch taken off - it was fractionally too tall. Unfortunately, I didn't get a copy, so I can't measure how it came out. (I thought I did, but it's not in my pile, so...) Can you measure it? I am interested if it's actually cut slightly too big, or what.

8.5" is a comfortable fit, 9" is not.

Fastlane is, in theory, 6" x 9" also, and as far as I could tell, it fit, but since I was leaving it to IPR this year, I wasn't too sure.  Could you let me know if it, too, didn't fit like I thought it should?

Quote from: Iskander on August 16, 2006, 01:11:44 PM
One final, personal, thing. I feel like I didn't play much, and that makes baby Alexander cry. I was pretty tired most days, and it felt like I frequently missed the opportunity to partake of the good gaming... that may be my memory playing tricks, but next year, kind folk, please spare a thought - and a seat - for the staff, who also love games.

This is unacceptable.

I'd like to offer to run a Saturday night Gen Con game for staff folk in '07.

No way Jasper and Alexander and company should have to even turn their necks for a cool game after all of the hard work they do.

Quote from: Iskander on August 16, 2006, 01:43:27 PM

Quote from: iago on August 16, 2006, 01:30:49 PMCould we get the physical dimensions on those problem ones?  DRYH fit in fine, at 6"x9".

No, it didn't, sorry. DRYH was a squeeze that survived without grave damage, but only just. It needed less than a 1/16th of an inch taken off - it was fractionally too tall. Unfortunately, I didn't get a copy, so I can't measure how it came out. (I thought I did, but it's not in my pile, so...) Can you measure it? I am interested if it's actually cut slightly too big, or what.

8.5" is a comfortable fit, 9" is not.

Unfortunately, I have no control over how Lulu cuts its 6x9 standard sized items, and that's who printed it.  I can say that I've seen zero variance in how they cut it from copy to copy, based on stacking 20 of them and being able to perceive it as a single rectangular block of bookstackedness.

That said, you are right that it's very slightly over 9" -- as in, it's 9 and 1/32".  And I only detected that 1/32" by looking very, very closely. :)

The racks may be standard size, but so's a 6x9 book.  I'm just not sure the racks are expecting something larger than a (to use RapidPOD's terminology) Novel, at 7" high, or a Digest, at 8.5" high.

But here's the problem: Lulu doesn't do 8.5" tall digest format.  Here are the options:

"Manual" format: 6" x 9"
"Letter" format: 8.5" x 11"
"Comic" format: 6.625" x 10.25"
"Landscape" format: 9" x 7"
"Square" format: 7.5" x 7.5"
"Pocket" format: 4.25" x 6.875"

There's no non-weird-dimension midpoint between Square or Landscape's 7-7.5" and Manual's 9"

So you can expect that as more people print with Lulu, and 6x9 continues to be a popular format (that's why you saw a lot of it this con), that a lack of 9" clearance on a rack is going to continue to be an issue.  Maybe we need more racks tuned to holding comic books?

Quote from: Iskander on August 16, 2006, 01:11:44 PM
- Thursday is not a day like any other day. It has the most sales, and a different audience. It is worth considering whether the booth should be configured for the target audience's convenience on Thursday, and then re-configured for the remainder of the show.

This was, to me, worth pulling out of Alexander's excellent post. The people who came to the booth on Thursday came to browse, shop, and spend money. With sales what they were on Thursday, a booth reconfiguration catered to these people may be something to look at. More work for us? Yes. Possibly better sale, though? Quite possibly.

Valamir, I couldn't disagree more with your post.

Quote from: Valamir on August 15, 2006, 08:49:04 PM
I don't think a bigger sales area would help.  And given that total revenue was up 50% over last year the lack of browsing space certainly didn't hurt us.

Your conclusion doesn't follow from your premise. Perhaps if there was sufficient browsing space, revenue would have been up 100%? I speak from my own experience running a booth: There are people who want to browse and then buy. If you hinder browsing for these people, you will hinder buying. Those are lost sales.

QuoteI'll actually offer a counter.  If people are haveing trouble browsing because its crowded...GOOD.  Wall to wall people crammed into a booth to buy books sends a very very positive signal...a "hey, there must be something really awesome going over there" signal.  I spent ALOT of time wandering the floor this year and can safely say NO other booth, including the big CCG and Fantasy Flight space had as high a population density for as extended a period of time as we did.

Except that we already accomplish that goal with the high-energy demo area. While I agree, it's nice to have "activity" in the buying area, it shouldn't cause people to actually have trouble browsing or, more importantly, buying. Even worse, you can create the experience of the customer who says "It's too crowded now; I'll come back later" and then never does because they've got a million other things to do and a million other products to get their attention.

QuoteThere's nothing wrong with making the sales experience a little bit difficult for the customer.  Its standard retail practice.  That's why stores put the stuff everybody wants in the back so customers have to travel through lots of stuff they didn't know they wanted to get there.  Its why grocery stores often put high customer pull items in poorly marked hard to find areas, while high advertising push items are on end caps.  Its why car dealers make you wait while the sales guy "talks to the manager".

These examples are not equivalent to the scenario in the booth. For starters, there aren't 200 other grocery stores right next to yours competing for that same dollar. Moreover, the examples you cite provide a payoff. In the case of the first two examples, it's to market other (likely higher profit) items the vendor is selling. Having a congested sell area in the booth doesn't provide a payoff in that way. In the case of the car dealer, this has nothing to do with the sale, this has to do with negotiating the price, which has nothing to do with the Forge selling methodology.

QuoteNow I'm not suggesting we should engage in any of those practices.  Just pointing out that a little bit of effort on the part of the customer isn't really a bad thing that needs to be fixed.

My conclusion: create as much buzz as you can, make the booth exciting, but also strive to make the buying experience as easy and enjoyable as possible for the customer.

Quote from: Paka on August 16, 2006, 01:54:00 PM

This is unacceptable.

I'd like to offer to run a Saturday night Gen Con game for staff folk in '07.

No way Jasper and Alexander and company should have to even turn their necks for a cool game after all of the hard work they do.

Along the same lines, I'd love to see a little more organization for the after hours Embassy suite events.  Schedules and sign up sheets might be too much to ask (although that would please my authoritarian hierarchal soul)...but something more than just catch as catch can would be good.

The booth staff and other volunteers are often the last to leave the booth...which means we're the last to get to dinner...which means we're the last to make it to the Embassy...which means there are a dozen tables full of excited roleplayers playing kick ass games...and we missed out on almost all of them. 

Combine this with the fact that since we didn't do complete in-booth cash outs most of the booth folks disbursed within 5 minutes of the hall closing.  This left little time for "hey where are you eating" or "what are you playing" conversations as there had been in past years.

I know this impacted a few of the booth-associates-formerly-known-as-monkeys also...those folks rock and are a huge asset, and don't get wads of cash from sold games to compensate them.  The least we can do is ensure that they aren't wandering around the Embassy with nothing to play.

Fred - that 32nd of an inch may be what's killing you. I don't have the racks and tests to hand to test it. Thanks for the Lulu info, which is interesting. It may well be that IPR needs to invest (again) in more racks, which would be unfortunate. AFAIK, one of the problems with comic-book-size displays is that they're optimised for a dozen 40-page comic books, which adds up to about two copies of most of the things on the booth: if you recall the stands in which most of BTRC was displayed, they got a lot of different products up, but in small, small quantities.

Let's table the size discussion for another time, and leave this thread for raw feedback, neh?

Quote from: Iskander on August 16, 2006, 02:48:07 PM
Let's table the size discussion for another time, and leave this thread for raw feedback, neh?

Absolutely; I consider my last post talking about Lulu's sizes to be all that needed to be fed into the idea tank on this subtopic. :)

Alexander, thanks for that exhaustive and really excellent breakdown of the logistical problems at the booth.  I have an odd position in this conversation, because while I was technically not part of the booth staff, I was invested through Bully Pulpit Games and trying to pay close attention to how things ran.  While I was universally impressed with how well things went, there's always room for improvement, and I'm particularly interested in trying to help with the retail operation however I can.


As a note about the rack sizing, I would suggest that if enough of the Forge exhibitors are doing their printing work through Lulu, it might be worth collectively asking Lulu for help with providing appropriate display racks.  That kind of support happens all the time in traditional retail outlets.

A couple of things I noted down while the con was going on:

(1) We need to have little cardboard tags on the racks with the price of books. Just a little professional looking tag that says

Game Title
$ price

(2) Booth Menu needs to say "Please Take One" in big lettering on the front.

I felt that being an "unknown" game on day one definitely showed in my Thursday sales. People ran to the booth to buy the games they had heard about pre-con, i.e. books like Dictinary of Mu, etc. So, I'm all for those hyped/awaited games getting good visibility on the Thursday at the expense of the newbies like me. On later days Best Friends was moved higher up the racks and it seemed to have more visibility and general awareness in the visitors to the booth. It's best day was Sunday, selling 4 times as many copies as Thursday.

I too came up one short on my numbers like Matt, I think. I'm sure there were 7 on the rack at con end, and I had sales numbers of 37 out of 45 -- so one short. Maybe one is in a box somewhere, or maybe it was lifted? I guess IPR will figure this out when all the stock taking is done.

Thanks to Tim Kleinert for his input on my demo too. I dropped the nerves for the most part aftert the first one on booth, junked the garbage and hopefully put out better, shorter demos later in the con.

Another word on demos, if I may.

What I see in my head is this process:

-You sit down with a designer and they run their demo for you.
-You take the materials, read over it, and then run the demo for the designer. He gives you feedback.
-You grab someone you don't know (because it's Wednesday night, and we have so many freakin' people!) and run the demo for them.

Then, when you sit down with customers, at least you have some level of comfort, as opposed to grabbing a demo kit and hoping for the best.

Quote from: Nathan P. on August 16, 2006, 10:07:21 PM
What I see in my head is this process:

You beat me to it.  I absolutely think people would be a lot more confident in running demos of other games if they had a chance to attend a "training session" for it.

Gregor: Your missing copy was the one you gave to me.

I echo all of Alexander's comments, and I want to apologize for not being as on the ball as I wanted to be before the con. This was my first GenCon, and I was a bit shy about coming in here and laying down the law. Next year, expect inflexible edicts a la Ron and Luke in their management of the demo area, especially regarding getting games in to Ralph on time to program the register. Other pre-convention planning items will be equally militantly enforced.

One further note, I am tearing my hair out because of the nightly payouts. This is beyond a major pain in the ass, and it is a tradition I would like to end. When all the booth was taking in was cash, and nobody was taking a cut from the sales, this was easy to figure. Now, with three times as many booth participants, credit card sales, and my own percentage, this is way too much math. I also have to keep track of who has been paid and who hasn't. Next year, I'd like everyone to bring enough spending money to the con and to expect to be paid out in a week's time after the convention.

I do want to say this was a great experience, and I want to continue making IPR a part of the Forge booth at GenCon.

Quote from: TonyLB on August 15, 2006, 09:39:36 PM

Seems to me that a great big "Enter at point A, proceed to point B" structure could, in theory, (a) eliminate any traffic snafu and (b) help people to get more (and better!) browsing done more quickly.

Having run retail operations on every level for well over a decade I can say this is a good idea.  I agree that the volume and excitement is good for business (especially in this hobby) but controlling that crowd a bit is also a great idea.  Maybe you could have demo-feeders standing at the entry and exit points directing folks that want to browse?  Just suggestions.  I would love to help next year.

Quote from: iago on August 15, 2006, 11:50:15 PM
(especially if the Wicked Dead products are mixed in next year)

I am certain there are a host of small companies that would be willing to join in this as well.  Has the group persued other small companies to join forces and create a larger unified presence or is that too much?  I mean an indie game is an indie game, right?  More space is almost always a good thing one way or the other.

Quote from: Matt Wilson on August 16, 2006, 10:27:07 AM
Did anyone else come up short on inventory? One of my books apparently walked off without being paid for.

Forge bags (or some sponsored bags) will help shrink (loss) a lot.  It becomes a flag for boothies to see someone sporting books without a bag wandering around.

Of course this is only an issue if the booth experienced shrinkage.

Quote from: Brennan Taylor on August 17, 2006, 07:03:16 AM
One further note, I am tearing my hair out because of the nightly payouts. This is beyond a major pain in the ass, and it is a tradition I would like to end.

We can talk about this, but from here, to me, it looks like a deal breaker. By the time I land at the con, I'm stretched really thin - I'm counting on that cash for food and gas home and shit.

I'm totally open to easier ways to do paying out, partial payouts, standardized payouts, whatever we can come up with. But some payout is necessary.

If it's any consolation, cashing out this year went one zillion times more smoothly and less painfully than years past. You should've seen the work that Ralph and Julie undertook!

-Vincent

Quote from: Nathan P. on August 16, 2006, 10:53:43 AM
My suggestion for both of these: a condition for booth monkery is that you must learn some demos. Knowing that my first step for getting a demo should be asking a monkey would be good knowledge. This is in addition to having organized "learn another demo" time for everyone.

I know that time is a precious commodity for many of us but in my game bank for my cons I generate a list of games the person manning it knows.  A regionalized pre-GenCon party for boothies to play one another's games or even more Forge/indie events throughout the year may alleviate some of these growing pains.

I have located an old laptop with serial port that could interface with the register. With a bit of hacking, I'm sure the math could be automated, given enough time in advance (maybe we can drag the register back to NY after next Forge midwest?)

Also, I have mad math skillz0rs, so I'm happy to help with that, Brennan. I'm sure we can figure something out.

Quote from: lumpley on August 17, 2006, 08:36:25 AM

Quote from: Brennan Taylor on August 17, 2006, 07:03:16 AM
One further note, I am tearing my hair out because of the nightly payouts. This is beyond a major pain in the ass, and it is a tradition I would like to end.

We can talk about this, but from here, to me, it looks like a deal breaker. By the time I land at the con, I'm stretched really thin - I'm counting on that cash for food and gas home and shit.

I'm totally open to easier ways to do paying out, partial payouts, standardized payouts, whatever we can come up with. But some payout is necessary.

I have to agree with Vincent here. I would rather not take credit cards than eliminate the payouts. It is the difference between me being able to come to GenCon or not.

Nathan,

-You sit down with a designer and they run their demo for you.
-You take the materials, read over it, and then run the demo for the designer. He gives you feedback.
-You grab someone you don't know (because it's Wednesday night, and we have so many freakin' people!) and run the demo for them.

Awesome.

Paul

Quote from: Clinton R. Nixon on August 17, 2006, 09:02:49 AM
I have to agree with Vincent here. I would rather not take credit cards than eliminate the payouts. It is the difference between me being able to come to GenCon or not.

Not to get too "in-yer-business" about IPR but is it possible to pay folk for their copies ahead of time?  Don't get me wrong, I understand that this is a big layout for the sales department but if it were doable then I think that would solve a lot of headaches.  Maybe buy new stock as it sells out?  How good are"we" at predicting what's going to sell and how much? 

Quote from: lumpley on August 17, 2006, 08:36:25 AM
I'm totally open to easier ways to do paying out, partial payouts, standardized payouts, whatever we can come up with. But some payout is necessary.

(emphasis mine)
What's the minimum dollar figure per day that would have to be?

Quote from: Brennan Taylor on August 17, 2006, 07:03:16 AM
Gregor: Your missing copy was the one you gave to me.

D'oh! Yes, that tallies up. No problem Brennan. Sorry, my head was fried.

I could live without getting cash out, but I have to say that for me it was good this year to do it. Just my two cents.

Forge branded bags would be great, just plain white with a red forge logo (like the badge we had for demos) would be ideal. I'd happily put some more dollars into the booth fee to cover it.

My .02 is that I didn't need the daily cashout this year, and I hopefully won't need it next year.

Maybe a cash-only cashout would be a workable solution? I have no idea if that makes it easier or harder on the paperwork.

I would also put in some cash for Forge bags. Or maybe bags with the Forge logo that say "support independent publishing". (yes, I realize that I just volunteered to make this happen if we decide to get bags)

Would this problem be alleviated by simply making it a policy of: Don't partake of "cash-out" unless you need to. I ended up not bothering with the cash out any day, and I wouldn't need to in the future. Brennan, would it help if you were only cashing out a few people each day as opposed to nigh everyone? Clinton and Vincent, would a cash out on day one only satisfy your needs, alleviating the burden for the rest of the con? I'm sure there's a middle ground here. I'm guessing that no-credit-cards is not an appetizing solution; Brennan, ballpark, what percentage of sales were via credit card?

Quote from: Justin D. Jacobson on August 17, 2006, 02:16:45 PMI'm guessing that no-credit-cards is not an appetizing solution; Brennan, ballpark, what percentage of sales were via credit card?

Well, anecdotally, I personally spent about twice as much as I would have been inclined to spend if it had been cash-only.  All of my booth purchases (around about $200 total) were done by credit card.  I'm sure I'm not alone.

Quote from: Justin D. Jacobson on August 17, 2006, 02:16:45 PM
Would this problem be alleviated by simply making it a policy of: Don't partake of "cash-out" unless you need to. I ended up not bothering with the cash out any day, and I wouldn't need to in the future. Brennan, would it help if you were only cashing out a few people each day as opposed to nigh everyone? Clinton and Vincent, would a cash out on day one only satisfy your needs, alleviating the burden for the rest of the con? I'm sure there's a middle ground here. I'm guessing that no-credit-cards is not an appetizing solution; Brennan, ballpark, what percentage of sales were via credit card?

It's not just a question of affordability, although that plays into it some. As is, I didn't need the cashout for hotel and whatnot, but I used it for game expenditures, as I have no budgeted income for that.

What it is also a question of is independence. I appreciate so very much how the booth was run and how Brennan and co. took care of the cash register. I pay 10% of my book's cover cost for that, and that's great. My notion of how I want to make my financial decisions is based on the past - with nightly pay-outs - and someone else changing that decision for me is not something I consider an ok invasion of my independence.

Quote from: Clinton R. Nixon on August 17, 2006, 02:23:32 PM
What it is also a question of is independence. I appreciate so very much how the booth was run and how Brennan and co. took care of the cash register. I pay 10% of my book's cover cost for that, and that's great. My notion of how I want to make my financial decisions is based on the past - with nightly pay-outs - and someone else changing that decision for me is not something I consider an ok invasion of my independence.

I'm literally not understanding that sentence. Are you saying there is no middle ground? What part of the nightly pay-out is essential/important for you? You sell books through IPR on their website and they pay out every quarter, which is (if I understand your point correctly) an invasion of your independence that you're comfortable with.

Quote from: Justin D. Jacobson on August 17, 2006, 02:51:23 PM
I'm literally not understanding that sentence. Are you saying there is no middle ground? What part of the nightly pay-out is essential/important for you? You sell books through IPR on their website and they pay out every quarter, which is (if I understand your point correctly) an invasion of your independence that you're comfortable with.

I've got a bit of confusion there too, I admit, and can only really examine it through the lens of my own experience ... in my mind, I'm trading the "independence" of getting my immediate cash gratification and a percentage of my cover price, for the benefits of a) not having to be the one making the sales, b) running the booth, and c) doing fulfillment of any stripe.  If I were to take that independence back, I honestly think I'd net fewer sales, so, despite getting my cash right away, I'd be getting less in the long haul.  I'd rather wait, and get more.

Justin and Fred,

Asking me to justify my feelings is not necessarily productive or helpful - they're feelings, and as such, can't be argued. I can clarify them:

- I want to buy things at the con.
- I need money to do that.
- We've had nightly payouts in the past.
- Therefore, I don't want to break with tradition and end them for those who want them.

As for using IPR normally, I chose to do that for my needs which I evaluated myself. I had other options which were viable, and they were the one I wanted. At the booth, I have no other options - if I want to be part of the community I helped create, I have to abide by the rules of the people who are (awesomely and wonderfully) running sales. If those rules change our shared cultural values, then I consider that a loss of independence, and I consider it a personal loss, as well.

Quote from: Clinton R. Nixon on August 17, 2006, 03:12:05 PM
Asking me to justify my feelings is not necessarily productive or helpful - they're feelings, and as such, can't be argued.

Wasn't asking you to.  You didn't say "I don't want to do this because it makes me feel bad'; the way I read your initial response suggested it was something with reasons in it.  Thus and therefore, my "hm, this doesn't make sense to me" response.  Clarifying was definitely the goal!  And thus:

QuoteI can clarify them:

- I want to buy things at the con.
- I need money to do that.
- We've had nightly payouts in the past.
- Therefore, I don't want to break with tradition and end them for those who want them.

That's cool and understandable.  I'm a noob here, so I had zero expectation of there being any payout policy whatsoever -- in fact, it's only in this thread that I've learned that such a thing was considered practicable or possible, let alone actually done!  And coming from my noob perspective, I'd want to support you getting you want ... though I also don't want to see the maintenance of requirements that force newer folk (e.g., IPR) to have to go a separate way.  I mean, yeah, cultural values are what they are and deserve care and respect and nurturing, but cultures also change as they incorporate new members... don't they?  I guess that's where I'm coming from: just looking for grounds on which compromise can occur instead of blanket prohibition.

Quote from: Clinton R. Nixon on August 17, 2006, 03:12:05 PM
Justin and Fred,

Asking me to justify my feelings is not necessarily productive or helpful - they're feelings, and as such, can't be argued.

To clarify, I wasn't asking you to justify your feelings. I wanted to understand the specifics of your distaste of a no cash-out policy. We need to understand what it is people have a problem with if we're to endeavor to fashion a solution that everyone can live with.

Ironically, as I mentioned, I have no stake in this issue. I'm not a part of the cash-out process, and I don't avail myself of it either. At any rate, I expect this is something that can be tabled until, oh, 11 months from now. Who knows what will be happening by next GC?

Nightly payouts are a collosal pain in the ass.  Period.  Unless you were one of the people who, for the last several years had to do them (principally myself, Julie, and Danielle)...you have no conception of what a nightmare they are.  I take it as a compliment actually that some folks would like to see a return to that...because it suggests we did a good job and the transaction was fairly frictionless for you...but man-oh-man it wasn't frictionless for us.

It was a nightmare with 12 companies to worry about and all cash in the drawer.  It was a bigger nightmare with 25 companies to worry about and a handful of personal checks.  With 40+ companies, somewhere between 1/3 and 1/2 of sales being Credit Card sales, a cash register that had significant programming problems the first day, and IPR taking a percentage it goes way beyond nightmare into a whole new category of pain.

I totally sympathize with people who rely on the payout to meet expenses...but seriously...I'd rather personally float you a loan until after the Con and have you pay me back out of your payout than to try and return to nightly cash outs...its THAT big of a deal.

I also sympathize with Clinton's independence angle.  As much as I admired the booth in its operation and appearance this year, a part of my brain missed the old days where the cash box was an envelope in Jake Norwood's hip pocket and perfect bound books on the shelf were a minority.  As nice as the wire racks are...I really missed the DIY-ness of Paul's hand made wooden shelf.  The booth has come a long way but along the way we've had to sacrifice some of the indie-punk attitude we started with.  Nightly cash outs is IMO the next sacrifice we have to make.

Have to...or be prepared to limit next year's booth to only 20 companies and return to a cash-only policy...which doesn't strike me as a good thing.

Now potentially Alexander can find a way to run the cash register data into a spreadsheet and crunch the calculations and reconciles quickly and easily...maybe...and if so, then great.  But if not...choices will need to be made.  Cause I ain't never doing nightly cash outs by hand for 40+ companies...no way.

Ralph,

Just to confirm - the register is a Sharp XE-A202, right?

I am confident we can arrive at a reasonable solution without breaking hearts, minds or banks. At the very least, I'm prepared to commit to doing the maths by hand for as many companies and individuals as necessary next year. I should put my maths degree to some use.

- Alexander

As a first-timer, by Forge booth experience was 100% positive in every way. YOU all made it that way for me. I cannot thank you enough. I hope I was able to contribute to the goodness of the booth in some small way this year. I learned a great deal from the veterans, and I look forward to putting it into practice even more next year.

About cashouts: I really really don't want to deal with cashouts for my game every night. Does it help if some sellers opt out of the nightly cashout process? Maybe if we have an advance count of who wants nightly cashouts and who doesn't, we can better anticipate the potential scope of the task.

Clinton: I understand and respect your position. I dig the indie thing, and I want to foster that feeling as much as I can.

I also am not going to go through the cashout process next year if it is going to be as big a pain as it was this year. Like Ralph, I will happily float people a personal loan in order to avoid having to figure the cashouts, with the checks, credit cards, and over 40 different companies to keep track of.

If Alexander and I work out some method to continue the practice, I will be happy to do so. I have a rather immense list of things to keep track of, however, and the more simplification I can do, the better.

I think we can revisit this issue as we start planning GenCon '07. I don't want to hash it out now, and Alexander and I will try to work out a system before we start talking about next year, too.

Greetings all,

I haven't seen this addressed yet in the post and didn't get a chance away from my booth or running scheduled events to check it out myself - How was the demo area for full-blown ("traditionally built"?) RPG games? Were those demos limited to combat examples with a touch of setup for time?  Did having only one person to demo that type of game to impact the effectiveness in your opinions? 

While we had plans to run in-booth demos, between spieling and the table games I just didn't get around to it (Ron I still owe you a session sometime as promised by one of my other partners - tried to grab you during a couple lulls, but when I was free you were busy

Your booth seemed to be packed to the brim from open to close; which was impressive to behold. I had enough moments of freedom to peer around the curtain and hover near the edges of the Forge booth to soak up some of the excitement, I just didn't get as much time as I would have liked to see for myself what games/type-of-games were being demoed in booth. 

Scott

If the nightly cashout is a cherished old chestnut from days of yore, maybe it should be available to the old timers in some capacity but not to us whipper-snappers.  There's clearly some emotional investment in it, and it may just be a handful of people for whom it is really important. 

I have no dog in the fight, opting out, but I am in favor of pretty much anything that makes it more likely that IPR will keep happily running the financial side of things. 

(I apologise if this has already been covered and I just missed it while skimming the thread.)

There are two things I think noone has covered yet: First, I think we need to develop a quick questionaire for the products (What's the premise? What's the 20-word pitch? What makes the game unique? etc.) and make it MANDANTORY next year that everyone fills it out. We talked about it last year, we talked about it this year, but still not everyone knew enough about every game to pitch it effectively (or even at all). As noble as Clinton's Demo-meeting was, not everyone was able to attend. We need something mandantory, and we need something we can pass out. (A meeting won't work 'cause late-comers would be left out.)  If everyone filled out a questionaire, we could compile them into a document and print it out for all the booth participants. I would gladly handle the logistics of such a questionaire.

Second, book placement on the rack was an issue, as I think someone might have mentioned. The books on the bottom didn't get the love they deserved. I think the solution is to raise the racks off the ground. I think milk crates or something would do the job. If this is too much hassle, then we need to give real conscious thought as to where we place books. We can't just throw them up. The books on the top definitely get more attention.

The premise/elevator pitch/awesomeness idea is really good Tim, and we should definitely do that.  There were a couple of games I knew nothing about on Thursday, including all the D20 stuff. 

I wondered about rack placement, but assumed the IPR team had something worked out to rotate stock up and down - my games seemed to alternately get eye-level love and bottom row disregard day by day, and I felt it all evened out.  Whether this moving about is good or bad, accidental or intentional, I have no idea. 

We tried to rotate stock so that everything had its moment in the sun, but honestly, I agree that some books got short shrift. Tim's idea is a good one, and I have already been investigating various stock storage options that would double as platforms and tables for future display racks to bring more of the stock closer to eye-level.

I didn't do as good a job of getting the stock laid out as I would have liked - we just didn't have time on Wednesday night / Thursday morning to do a really good job of arranging it. That's one of the reasons I asked everyone to bugger off out of the IPR space on future mornings: we couldn't spare the time to say "Thanks, but we don't need another pair of hands right now," even. Initially, the real time-crunch was the floor, and that's got to stay high on the list of fix-for-next-year priorities, and after Thursday, the stock storage non-system slowed us down... so that stays high on the list, too!

Nevertheless, you should bear in mind that it will never be possible to completely avoid having some books in the shade some of the time. Not if we want to be able to have 90+ books out, again. We can mitigate the problems, but I don't think we will ever be able to eliminate them. Stock rotation will remain a feature of the booth, I believe.

- Alexander

Heya,

Tim, I might suggest making everyone answer the Big Three (http://socratesrpg.blogspot.com/2005/12/what-are-big-three.html).  I think those three questions, more than any others, can capsulize a game so everyone has a basic idea about what it does and how it plays.

Peace,

-Troy

I know that the booth already owns the wire racks, but assuming for a moment that we might invest in new displays, would it be realistic to suggest table-top racks?  My understanding is that GenCon provides an 8' table for each booth block.  With two of those end to end, we'd have space for up to 5 36" racks (like these (http://www.siegeldisplay.com/productDetail.aspx?id=7007-07016), for example) in a row together.  That would allow for display of up to 120 6" books. 

Although this rack design means that some books are in front of other books, they would all be closer to eye level, and at least mostly visible.  They'd be easier to rotate (front to back, rather than top to bottom) and having the skirted tables would provide more room for stock storage directly underneath the displays.

I personally had a great time at the booth this year. Coming back with my first game and getting a lot of positive feedback was a big boost for me and will see me returning next year.

Selling space was definetley a problem, but hopefully that can be solved fairly easily by some  planning out the booth a little better next year.

Although I did well out of the con, I felt that Ron's 'let's make sure the new guys get their games shown over the first two days thing' was maybe not as fully supported as it could have been and that we should maybe have had rack space specifically labelling these new games for the first day or so of the con. Just so the new guys get the exposure they need to get the sales coming in.

However, apart from these two quibbles I really enjoyed myself and though the atmosphere at the booth was miles better than last year.

Thanks very much to all who played and gave feedback on my game and to those who ran games for me. I can honestly say I didn't play a game I didn't enjoy.

Cheers
Iain

The experience of being at the booth: 100% awesome.
The effectiveness of the booth in doing what it was supposed to do: decent.

I already threw down radical notions of reorganization in the other thread (http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=21000.msg217796#msg217796), so I won't repeat that here.  My main concerns are these:

-- Size.  I think total booth space needs to double.  No joke.  I spent half my time standing around, because there was no room for me to do anything.  I just waited until the demo tables opened and then herded people to them.  There was no space to talk to potential customers that wasn't in someone else's way.

-- Specialization. People need to join forces in teams that focus on a smaller subsets of the games at the booth.  There are just too many products to deal with otherwise.

People seem to be mostly posting suggestions that are Like Last Year, Only a Little Bit Different.  Honestly, as a newcomer, it's my responsibility to say, "Bollocks to that!" and push for more radical changes (just like it's the Old Timers' responsibility to reign me in when I go to far).  The Forge Booth, this year, to me, looked WAY too small for the amount of activity that was going on there and definitely wasn't anywhere close to holding the amount of activity that I thought could have been going on there (if only there was more space and more specialization).  It's nice that it went relatively well and that we sold a lot of books.  That's sweet.  But I think you guys are settling for the Status Quo when it doesn't really apply anymore.  The models that worked when the booth had 20 people are not effective anymore.  Next year you will have at least 50 people (if not more) and at least 120 products (if not more).  That is fucking nuts.  In the current system, that is completely unmanageable.

Did anyone else notice that, this year, a bunch of the old school designers just sat back and left most of the demoing and talking to the new kids?  Their sales probably sucked because of it, but there really wasn't anything else for them to do, really.  As far as I could tell, Clinton wasn't demoing TSoY, Paul wasn't demoing My Life, Vincent wasn't demoing Dogs, Matt W. wasn't demoing Primetime, and Matt S. wasn't demoing Nine Worlds or Dust Devils, Ralph wasn't demoing Universalis, and I doubt Ron demoed much Sorcerer.  There were a few exceptions, like Tim K. demoing some Mountain Witch and Ben demoing some Polaris and Emily demoing some Breaking the Ice (and those all came out just last year) and Luke Crane demoing games like a madman, but the games that people think of when they think of "Forge games" were, to a large extent, not being demoed at the Forge Booth.  Which is a damn shame.  These are the games and the designers that have brought the Forge Booth to the point where it is now and I really wished they had been more visible.  Heck, I would have loved to run some of those games and get people excited about them, but there was just no space.

Basically, I feel like the booth did not adaquately serve the designers who were there this year. The new kids and the new games got a lot of traffic, but even then some people didn't get as much attention.  And I definitely felt like the older games got forgotten.  Personally, I'm dreading what it will be like next year if the booth size increases just slighting (adding two more 10x10's is just not going to be anywhere near enough) while the number of booth members increases by 30% again and the number of products increases by 50% (because most of the previous year's members will have new games).

Specialization is also super critical in keeping the booth from becoming a faceless sea of people and products.  Even now, I only had a good conversation with probably half the people at the booth, and I was trying really hard to talk to everyone.  For me, the indie community is about the close bonds between people and the excitement that comes from that.  If you're working hard to sell my game, I want to know that and appreciate you for that.  As it is, I have no idea who pitched and sold copies of Push and I have no way of reciprocating.  That doesn't encourage the building of working relationships.  For all I know, Joe sold 15 copies of Push by himself and I should have done a better job of telling people how much Perfect rocked.  I felt very disconnected to the process of selling Push.  Fifty people bought copies of my product and I only talked to 5 of them. And I didn't even talk to the people who sold them the copies.  That blows.  Where's the personal connection with your fellows?  Where's communicating with your audience?  I sure as hell am not doing this for the money.  I'm doing this because I love my fellow designers and love the people who love my products.

Seriously, where's the love?

Quote from: timfire on August 18, 2006, 12:23:51 PM
What's the premise? What's the 20-word pitch? What makes the game unique?

When I originally heard the idea of the Game Menu, This is what I thought it refered to. I think that adding a extra line or two to each entry on the Menu would be a great help to everyone pitching games as well as to customers who take a Menu and are trying to describe games to other people. Something like:

Polaris       TAO Games          $20
Apocayiptic Farie Tale Fantasy at the Top of the World.
Winner of the 2007 Indie RPG of the Year and Most Innovative RPG of the Year Awards
www.tao-games.com

Doesn't seem like it would change things much.