The Forge Archives

"Do you have any idea how many 900 billion is?  That many people, and all their aspirations, history, politics, and religion amount to is white noise.  They cancel each other out.  All that's left is to coast on the noise, man, and enjoy the ride.  A million planets, a million bucks to be made, a million lives to be saved, a million chicks to be banged.  Let's rock."
-Iuhai Farham,  galactic mercenary and Rathi Cluster guitar shredder.

Premise: The future is chaos.  The past is chaos.  The present is chaos.  Life, culture, thought thrive in chaos.  More specifically, trade thrives in chaos, and in the ancient Galaxy of Man, trade is the lifeblood of the universe.  Players are deep in the blood vessels as mercenaries, traders, explorers, hopeful despots and freedom fighters in a dirt-covered, rust-spotted, laser-gun toting RPG.

Hope: I'd like to create a 'galactic' style sci-fi game with spaceships and the like in a galaxy populated at least almost soely with humans – after all, we're a pretty diverse and interesting bunch.  In this, players should be able to explore everything from fighting the good to save people from megacorps, to exploring virgin planets, to running drugs from core world to fringe worlds in souped-up light freighters.

Mechanics: I know there's a lot of hatred of D20 on this board, but the only systems my players already know are D20 and Shadowrun...and Shadowrun is an amazing hassle.  I'll be using a heavily modified D20 to run this game, though I'm open to suggestions from you all on a "better way".

Gameplay Example One (The Seamy Side):
Where: An ill-lit street off the side of Esperanza Segura's secondary spaceport.  Only the EarthAsia takeout joint's sign is still glowing, and someone is walking a dog.
Who: The GM (S), and two smugglers (D and E).
Why?: The players have come on-planet with a cargo of highly illegal biological lab components, and now have to arrange the transfer with their contact.  They met the contact briefly when they came onplanet so he could decide on a secure meeting spot.

S: You both round the corner onto Glorian street...how far away did you park again?

D: I parked about half a block down, on the next street.

E: I went in his groundcar.  It's a rental anyway.

S: Well, good.  The street looks deserted, and only the EarthAsia takeout is even remotely open.  The sign reads "Black Dragon Noodle Bar," maybe.  Do either of you know ChinaFraca?

D: Nope.

S:  Oh well.  Take spot checks, DC 16.

E: Passed it.

S: There's someone sitting in a car across from the takeout joint, but the car's not on.  You spotted them by the light from their cigarette.

E: Groundcar or aircar?

S: It's a beat-up old groundcar.

E: I tell D that our contact's probably over there.

D: Strolling casually over to the car, I...

S: Take a quick Wisdom test for me?

D: 17, baby!

S: This smells setup to you, D.  E?

E: Uh...9?

S: You think it's time to get this deal over with and tell him the drop spot.

E: OK.  I walk over to the car, unless D tries to stop me.

D: Nope.  But I loosen old betsy in her holster and put down my shades.  And turn on their thermal imaging (cackles).

S: OK, D, add 3 to your next initative.

E: Have I gotten to the car?

S: Slouching quickly along the street, the two of you make it to the beat-up old blue Yariv Donley, the most common car out there.  The man inside rolls down the window, which is grimy and covered in something dried...

E: Bird shit?

S: Take an Intelligence test.

E: Eh...14?

S: No birds shit straight brown.  Take a Wisdom test.

E: Umm...wow, 19.

S: The window, which has just finished rolling down to reveal you contact looking very pale and haggard, is covered in blood.

D: Any activity?

S: The street is silent except for the air traffic overhead as the two of you begin to speak...

This would go on to have them ambushed by local police forces, to whom they have been betrayed by their contact for unknown reasons, and a hectic race to the spaceport or safehouse to get offplanet, either through main force or trickery.

Example of Play 2 (The Heroic Side)
Where?:  The pristine halls of a rich arcrology on the CoreWorld of Centari Aleph.

Who?  The two players, this time, are rebels working for a group which has overthrown roughly 1/3 of the planet from the three corporations that dominate it in the name of freedom from corporate opression and exploitation.

What?  On their way to a cell meeting, they have discovered a squad of Tricorp soldiers outside the door, and have already killed one sentry.

S: The Tricorp enforcers are about to set charges on the door.

D: Whar kind of charges?

S: Since you're behind them, it's hard to tell.  Check knowledge (Demolitions), DC 18.

D: Nothing.

E: Right, well, there are fifteen of our cellmates in there.  I'm gonna level my lasrifle at the one setting the charge and fire...hrm, twice, I have the Doubletap feat.

S: OK, you'll get surprise round.

D: When I see him start shooting, I'm getting on the comm. With Alexi inside and telling him that the cell is under attack and to arm themselves.

S: OK.  E, roll your attack.  The trooper is wearing simple fibresteel, and doesn't see you, so you have to hit a 12 to touch him and a 16 to hit him and not his armor.

S: Hit on his armor...damage?  Owch.  OK, the first ten points burn a hole in his armor, the next five bore into his shoulder and he collapses, screaming, but begins to claw out his pistol...

D: Is Alexi answering?

S: Oddly, no.  Now roll intiative, the other two troopers now know there's some scrapping to be done...

This would continue on until the players find their cell has been killed already, and they have to make their way to a sector command center for the rebel groups on the planet.


Where shall I go from here?  Thoughts, comments, prompts for futher info all appreciated.


-Adso

You had me 100% hooked from the flavor task. This is precisely, precisely the kind of space faring game I'm always looking for and have made a few tries at building. Good for you - and the flavor text you got shows a totally commited sense of the flavor you want. Again: you know what you want, don't let that go.

QuoteI know there's a lot of hatred of D20 on this board...

Somebody's got to say it: I don't think there is hate, rather skepticism about when it's good and when it's not. And don't feel shy about liking d20 even if that's not a majority! To the topic at hand:

(Great gameplay example, by the way. This is precisely the way that new games should be introduced.)

You have a clear idea of how play looks. Now, to me this looks like play comes out of what you might call "traditional" game scenario flow, where the GM seems to be the main broker of game "information". (I can explain what I mean if it seems like a poor characterization; but in any case, that's how most RPGs go.) Looking at the way mechnics are in there, it's not just a d20like system, but there's a heavy amount of interfacing between the players and the system - they're expected to touch it a lot (checking their stats frequently, knowing feats like Doubletap), and it's not quite as transparent as other system ideas, although you could drift it that way.

So, that's how you are imagining play, and that is a style of play d20 certainly supports. The reason to be skeptical of d20 here is: (1) is your play-style, crafted possibly from d20-play, really what you're looking for out of White Noise? and (2) will d20 itself promote the goals of White Noise.

About (1), I'll not second-guess you - you know what you like, and you can create threads elsewhere if you are unsure of that. The valid question here is, is White Noise have a cool synergy with this style of play? (How do the two build off each other?)

About (2), I feel that, if you're solid about your goals, d20 can probably fit the bill. I was just thining from the quote - right off the bat, you're saying "yeah, chaos, and a million opportunities for adventure, sixguns and cold cash". In that scenario, then scenarios with GM-controlled information ("jobs"), and strong interfacing with the system (with possibly crunchy bits to maximize effectiveness and along with it maximize the adventure/sixguns/cash) - this is what d20 can provide. I think there are other systems that will do, if you want to borrow them, but this would fit the bill.

d20 could possible have some problems as the system for White Noisel tell me if any of these problems speak to you:[list=1][*] the progression of characters' proficiency through their system might not jibe with your vision of characters in the world: maybe you're wanting something like CORPS, which is gritty, and a fatal wound can always be actually fatal.
[*]the technicalities of feats/etc are daunting to reengineer: maybe you're looking for d20 Future to have crunch preconfigured, or perhaps a streamlined system like EABA to provide a different kind of crunch.
[*] Players won't feel as at home in this setting as they might in, say, Eberron or Shadowrun: maybe you want give them more control over the setting, mechanically in-play or beyond-play, or perhaps you want to rethink the formatting of the setting itself. (Check out the "Blood & Steel" free expansion for octaNe - you don't need octaNe, but it has good ideas about sharing ownership of a world you're creating.)
[*] Once in a d20 framework, players will think in that context, paying more attention to the jobs & missions & challenges they are provided (and rewarded for), rather than paying attention to the neat aspects of the White Noise world, or giving adequate attention to its ruthless and reckless nature; maybe you want to change the d20 rewards system so that it better rewards this kinds of behavior.[/list:o]

...

You're really sold me on the setting, and it's in setting design that you'll have your challenges. My designs for a space opera succumbed to kitchensinking myself into something that was essentially a traveller knockoff. In building a setting, make sure not to lose sight of your real goals. Indeed, maybe you should be minimalist about how much setting you actually need up front, as opposed to setting that's creating on the fly.

Another frame of reference: when you're throwing this setting into the mix - into your own designer head, into the hands of players and characters -  which parts of it are stimulating, and how can you replicate that stimulation in the play (and not just in the world creation)?

OK, great job spotting some of the assumptions I make, especially about the amount of crunch and system interface the players are capable of/will enjoy.  My reasoning on this was:

1.  Shadowrun, which I've been disappointed with, is 99.9% technowizardry and number-crunching to get that extra D6 initiative or whatever.  I wanted to avoid the syndrome so apparent in Shadowrun of ubercharacters being uber only for the fun of rolling a bajillion dice.

2.  D20 modern, which I enjoyed so long as you discount the cracked-out setting, allows for a good deal of characterization and doesn't rely on number crunching or legalism to provide the players with their ability to act heroically.
Therefore, I needed something which provided the flexibility and player-liking slant of D20 modern without abandoning the richness of Shadowrun's setting-reflective system.

My main concern with using D20 is in character advancement and, you guessed right, "System Matters" player mindset.  On character advancement, I struggle with Hit Points because I see players as becoming better at things, not physically more able to absorb laser blasts, unless they train for that specifically.

On player mindset, I actually don't envision this as D&D In Space, with the characters getting salvage missions from their local bar and killing space pirates to get their missions done, though that's certainly possible.  Instead, I hope to get players into a "wanderer" mindset that will allow them to express their creativity and the GM to explore the uncreated universe.  Do you think D20 inherently creates a gamist, level-up, loot the corpses mentality?  If so, I'd like to know – that mentality needs desperately to be avoided.

Finally, the universe is deliberately uncreated.  I'm trying to create a few locations, sects, groups and ideas which give an idea of the flavor and variety of the Galaxy of Man, but most of the universe is White Noise – defined by players and GM in a non-regulated way.  Should I introduce mechanics for narrative control and world building?  This would be a hard step.

-Adso

Quote from: Brother Adso...physically more able to absorb laser blasts...

How many times does it need to be said, that having more hit points doesn't mean that you become, necessarily, physically tougher?

Quote from: Brother AdsoDo you think D20 inherently creates a gamist, level-up, loot the corpses mentality?  If so, I'd like to know – that mentality needs desperately to be avoided.

I think it does.  But I think that perhaps it creates this mentality as a result of the Reward & Advancement of the game.  I struggled with this a bit myself when I started running a d20 D&D game recently.

I think that the system lures the players into the mentality with the following bait:

1)  Levelling.  In d20 Levelling is a core concept.  And, no matter what level your current character is, one tends to consider all the kewlness that the character will achieve with the next level.  So, players want their character to Level.  Nothing wrong with that, but it's worth noting that it's important in d20 to Level.  And I don't think that this particular part of the mentality can be avoided when using d20.  Unless one were to severly scale down the increase in character power & player choices that generally comes with Leveling

2)  Rewards.  So, players desire Levels.  How do they get them?  In d20D&D and d20 Star Wars, it's by Overcoming Challenges.  Which basically means killing things.  One gains Levels by killing things.  Kewl for D&D, but apparetnly not what you're looking for.  So, how will the PCs gain their Levels in your game?

If there are other rewards in your system (such as Force Points in d20 SW), how will the PCs get them?

*scratches chin*

Yeah.  I think that's it.  You need to look at the Reward system.  How will the players get the things they want for their characters?

*scratches chin*  

Or maybe I'm way off track.  Dunno.

*shrug*

-Eric

Quote from: Technocrat13Rewards. So, players desire Levels. How do they get them? In d20D&D and d20 Star Wars, it's by Overcoming Challenges. Which basically means killing things.

No, it doesn't, not unless the GM declares it to be so.  ANY encounter, whether it's a combat encounter, a social encounter, whatever, can be given a challenge rating and XP associated with it.

YES, if the GM only gives out XP for combat encounters, it can easily become a "kill things and take their stuff" game, and yes, Dungeons and Dragons (NOT D20) gives more explicit guidelines for combat encounters than it does for other kinds, but there's no reason THIS game has to do that.  If he lays out challenge ratings for other kinds of encounters, then it can easily become whatever kind of game you want to emphasize.

You are conflating the new edition with older ones in which, yes, the only way to gain XP was to kill stuff.

It's my opinion:

Not only does SYSTEM matter, but EXPECTATIONS matter.  Dungeons and Dragons has always been a "kill things and take their stuff" game, so many people will always look at it in that light, even if the system changes.

Unfortunately, there's no efficient way of changing people's expectations.

Quote from: Vaxalon
You are conflating the new edition with older ones in which, yes, the only way to gain XP was to kill stuff.

Well, no I don't think I am.  Indeed, I don't even think my post implied that.  I said that d20D&D and d20 SW give XP for Overcoming Challenges.  And in those games, the most underlined way to overcome a challenge is by killing it.

But that's off topic anyway.

It was my intention to reply to Adso's concern that d20 will result in "a gamist, level-up, loot the corpses mentality".

It's my intention to say that the Levels (which lie at the heart of d20) do inspire that mentality.  

-Eric

Hey Adso,

Yeah, I'm with Dev, your title and color text is the whip. You seem like you've got your heart set on d20, so I'm not going to push too hard on that, but let me suggest that you look at two indie games before you commit:[list=1][*]http://www.twistedconfessions.com/fastlane.php">Fastlane: I think the mechanics for Lifes and risk taking would utterly deliver on your notions about having brash mercenaries and hopeful despots as player characters.
[*]http://www.simplephrase.com/products/tat/">Thugs & Thieves: I don't think it would be difficult at all to translate it to scifi, and I think the Vices would deliver on the seediness you're looking for and the "wanderer" thing you mentioned.[/list:o]Paul

Hey Adso:

Quote... but the only systems my players already know are D20 and Shadowrun...

Are you intending this game for anyone else besides your players?

Take a page from CoCd20. Get rid of advancement.

Start characters at level X, and then hand out things like Feats, BAB increases, skills, and the like as appropriate to the story instead of mechanically. Or heck - you've got an SF setting, let characters BUY skill upgrades or feats in the form of brain hacks or hardtech of one sort or another.

I think you're on the right track with your system choice - it's rarely a bad idea to leverage your players' embedded knowledge base, particularly if you want to emphasize a different facet of Exploration.

Best,

Mark

If he likes D20, he likes D20. I hear it's got lots of lovely tactical crunch. In any case wasn't the initial question about setting? That's what I wanted to get back to.

Quote from: DevMy designs for a space opera succumbed to kitchensinking myself into something that was essentially a traveller knockoff. In building a setting, make sure not to lose sight of your real goals. Indeed, maybe you should be minimalist about how much setting you actually need up front, as opposed to setting that's creating on the fly.

I read Dev's original thread with interest, and I think there's actually to be a lesson to be drawn from, of all places, Ron Edwards's Sorcerer & Sword supplement (which is a good thing to buy, though not in the must-have category like Trollbabe). Not to steal Ron's bread, but I'll just summarize my read on it:

What does Conan have to teach us about space opera? It's that you want one or two strong themes and the rest of the setting pretty wide open, so you can plop down any kind of appropriate adventure you wish. Don't try to define all the Major Factions (this I think is the particular kitchensinking problem Dev ran into). And do not, do NOT try to map anything. Just give your setting a couple of powerful drivers and room to play.

Star Wars does this: You have a Fascistic Empire vs. a ragtag rebellion (or, in the less successful prequels, a decaying Republic); you have the battle between the Dark Side and the Light Side of the Force expressed in both individuals and on a cosmic scale; you've got big lawless and wilderness areas of galaxy to run around in; but besides those strong, driving themes, the universe is left pretty well undefined. George Lucas can invent new planets and civilizations from barbaric to civilized and have them conveniently located near other whenever the story suits -- e.g. in the prequels when it turns out that Tatooine and Naboo just happen to be close to each other. (I'm setting aside all the Expanded Universe crap, which does try to map out the universe and fill in the blanks; never could stand that stuff).

Joss Whedon's short-lived TV series Firefly also does this: There's a hardscrabble frontier with plenty of room for outlaws and former rebels (e.g. the hero); there's a repressive overcivilized core of old colonies trying to impose their idea of order the universe; there's a lot of swearing in Chinese; but nothing's clearly mapped and setting varies widely from one world to the next.

I think this kind of openness is exactly suited for the "chaos and adventure" themes of White Noise. You might want one or two more strong themes besides trade/travel/adventure -- it sounds like the sheer anarchy of the future is one.

Also, your portrayal of the PCs as wandering adventurers who can jump from being low-tech street criminals to high-tech, high-minded rebels to planetary despots actually maps very nicely onto how Conan as a character changes from thief to warrior to ruler, ranging from pseudo-Africa to pseudo-Ukraine to pseudo-France, while remaining fundamentally the same person. There's much discussion of the Conan model over in the Adept Press subforum, though you may have to do some searching for exact threads -- I believe Conan the Cimmerian is the collection of stories that Ron Edwards recommends (there's a lot of bad and even fake Conan stuffout there).

Hmm, here's something I threw together instead of my Chinese Cinema paper.

Fleshed out Character Growth system:

Players, at the end of each session, submit three things to the GM that they believed were characterful, exceptionally effective, or added to the richness of the story.  These can be things they did, another player did, or the whole group did.

The GM, after hearing the submissions, chooses which ones to reward.  The players so rewarded gain 150 XP per 'plot point' awarded.  XP can be spent in any number of ways, but suggestions include:

100 XP = 1 level in a skill.
300 XP = +1D6 Hit Points
400 XP = +1 BAB
500 XP = One new feat, or add a new skill as a class skill with 2 ranks.
650 XP = +1 to a base characteristic as appropriate.  May not boost characteristic above 18.
700 XP = +1 to character's base Defense.
800 XP = New special ability, GM-Defined.  Example: Unerring Nav-Sense
1,000 XP = New special ability, player-defined. Example: Heavy Munitions Expert

The maximum ranks in a skill are equal to one-half of the stat which that skill is based on, rounded up.  For example, with a STR of 10, you can take no more than 5 ranks in Climb, which is based on STR.

So, in the smuggler example above, during the chase, D drove his groundcar straight into the back cargo bay of the Junker (his ship), which he submits for coolness factor.  E, on the other hand, saved their contact from the Poliza agents only to discover that it was he who had betrayed them in the first place.  For shooting the contact in the back of the EarthAsia franchise, he wants a reward for 'moving the plot along'.  The GM awards them both 150 XP, plus 50 for getting out alive.  D spends 100 to get an extra point in "Drive", and saves the other 100.  E spends all 200 to boost his Intimidation skill by two, reasoning no one wants to screw around someone who will plug a man, then hide the body in a vat of hoisin sauce.

This assumes the players will be thinking "in character" about where they should be gaining...is this too much to hope?

-Adso

Adso, have you checked out the FarScape d20 book? FS seems pretty close to the setting you're looking for, and since you're already dinking around with d20 rules, it might be interesting to read it and see if there's anything that you can steal.

I haven't checked out the book myself (diehard 'scaper, though) so can't offer it as anything other than, "This might be a good resource." =)

I'm jumping on the bandwagon to say your examples rock and going with D20 seems fine for your goals.

The only concern I have is in the frequency of die rolls in the examples. What happens if they fail that first Wisdom test? They don't find their contact? Do they wander around looking for him for an hour or what?

Every roll in D20 is an opportunity to fail. Failures in that system usually result in nothing happening -- you swing and miss (nothing happens), you don't spot the blood (nothing happens), you don't notice the lie told to you (nothing happens). Couple that with the flat dice results (any number between 1 and 20 is equally likely to come up on a given roll) and there can be problems.

The more you toss the forward-action of the current scene to the dice mechanic, the more chances you have to grind to a halt.

One technique that works for our group is to assume that normal sensory operation happens automatically. You never roll to "spot" anything, unless it's very, very well hidden or there is some condition which impairs you (like darkness or fog). "There's a guy across the street sitting on a car hood. Looks like your contact." "There's a red stain on th window of the car. Sure looks like blood to you."

Is he really our contact? Is that stuff really blood? That's when you take out the dice. If the PCs want to scrutinize and carefully investigate, their abilities come into play. Otherwise, the "default" result happens without any rolling or fuss. "I kick open the door." It's an ordinary door. You're a big burly guy. It flies open. No Strength test. Why? Because failure isn't interesting. Failure just doesn't matter and could be silly, anyway.

In D20, the dice system isn't the "physics" of the world. You don't roll dice to make your bed or put on your pants. These things happen in the natural way and we don't test your Dexterity or Wisdom to do them. This principle can be extended to cover all of the "natural" things a PC can do, without trusting to the very, very fickle dice to provide the "right" results.

Hmmm. That was somewhat rantish. I think it's on-topic, though.

On player advancement:

As you can see, I agree with removing level as a concept, because with it goes a lot of the gamism inhernent in D20, although it certainly doesn't entirely erase it -- after all, we need some gamism, since we are playing games.

On themes and tones and indefinables:

I plan to post a bunch more flavor material when I get around to it.  I've been using a fabulous supplement called "Sea Of Stars" which deals in a very concise way with the difficulties of putting together a coherent sci-fi setting without falling into the trap of making a specific place .

In White Noise , combat is serious business, but mistakes can be survived and corrected with care.  Morality is largely ambiguous (though some institutions and people are truly good or evil), but beliefs polarize groups quickly and players must toe the line between crusading for their own good and recognizing the randomness of social camps.  Scope can vary, but I think most players will be too caught up in their own corners of the world to become movers and shakers, unless that is their specific goal.

Themes: Singular:
Diversity (of the millions of worlds and societies),
Stagnation (of technology),
Anarchy (of belief, politics, and trade).

Themes: Conflict:
Anarchy vs. Unity (governments trying to consolidate their power in their local areas),
Power vs Entropy (Governments falling apart from within),
Idealism vs Reality (Ideas confronting the diversity and anarchy of the White Noise of other ideas, or idealist movements being compromised to govern effectively),
Self-Interest vs Social Focus (the classic Han Solo dilemma).


That's just total brain-storming, mind you.

On rolling for many things:

While I agree that dice aren't the physics of the universe, I find that rolling is a good way to keep players interested, so long as you can tread the line of not making failure trivial, which you did well to point out.

I've never been able to find anything other than GM discretion to solve this problem. Do you have any suggestions for a mechanic?

On kitchensinking: it's my intention to sketch the themes, basics, prehistory, and technology limits of the Galaxy of Man, then leave settings for individual campaigns and adventures totally open.  That said, I may end up posting some as examples.

And now, on with more game design!

-Adso