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OK, several big points.

First, next time you want to split a thread, talk to Ron Edwards, the admin, and ask him to do it. He could have saved you a ton of effort, and it would have looked prettier. It was an excellent idea to split, there's just a function in the software that makes it easier.

Second, actually, I'm hedging on my assessment of "everything is animism!" When I see the world "Spirit" I jump at animism. Especially ancestor animism which I'm really fond of. Thing is that if we ignore the term Spirit as being generic, and not really saying anything about the beings it refers to, it really means just "otherworld being." As such, they could be any of the three sorts.

Again, given the description of the one river spirit, that sounds more like a theism being. I'm avoiding using the Glorantha specific term here. Let's call it a theist spirit, using the HQ term to separate them, and the Midnight term for otherworld being. So the question is whether or not the ancestors of the Dorns are actually animist spirits or theist spirits (I'm pretty sure they're not wizardry spirits).

The question comes down to how the Dorns worship them. Is it about ecstatic worship of some sort? Or is it about sacrificing things to them? Also, from the magic POV, do the Dorns have charms and fetishes that carry parts of their ancestors in them, or do the ancestors teach them how to do things that they did in the past as a form of magic? That is, with animism, you get a part of the spirit in an object, and then it helps you directly: charms and fetishes. With Theism the magic is that you re-enact the ancestor spirit, and that becomes a magically empowering act: a feat.

At this point I'm going to guess that the theism model is actually more correct here. But that's really knowing very little about the Dorns and their religion at this point. At some point you both may just have to decide on what you want to do with it.

As for what that would make Katrin, again, if these spirits are only known wandering the mundane world, then it's common magic. That would mean that thought they might believe that there are ancestors watching, there is no magical effect (though they might have "Feels Watched By Ancestors" as part of the religion keyword or something that spurs them on). In the case of it being common magic, then if it's animist it's Common Magic Charms that go into the CM religion keyword. In addition you can make up a religion keyword as well if you like. It's not required however.

Here are the animist options:
Spiritist - she's not really any more invested in the religion than anyone else, and all she gets is five tradition charms to augment.
Practitioner - in addition to the tradition charms, she'd get some fetishes. These hold entire spirits, and are potentially very, very powerful when "released." She also might have a Spirit Ally at this point, probably an ancestor who follows her around.
Shaman - I'm thinking not. But if so, she'd get a spirit guide who could lead her through wherever it is that spirits spend their time when they're not in this world. Which is a question we still need to answer.

For theism:
Communal worshipper - She worships the ancestors with everyone else. The only magic she'd get is the ability to call on the gods which would normally be a 10W6 difficulty. Probably much higher in this world. I'm thinking that an act that actually gets the gods to appear would be at least as hard as a monotheist miracle (10W9) if not more like 10W12. Basically it's one of the goals of the whole world, so it's gotta be up there. Something to work towards.
Initiate - this normally gives affinities. In this case, the gods are not available to give them, however. So the best that's probably available would he affinities from Hero Cults. At this point the character might get a "Divine Companion", again an ancestor who hangs around.
Devotee - this adds feats to the affinites. And makes a Divine Companion more likely.

Those are the basic options. More later.

Mike

Quote from: randomlingI'd like to think that the Dornish Ancestor Spirits are real entities with which Katrin could have some kind of relationship, the way that the elves have relationships with the tree-spirits in Erethor.

The same kind of relationship? How do you think?  The Wood Whisper is an entity of its own, it's not an ancestor cult.  Elves sensing the Whisper don't even relate to individual spirits (although it may seem like a collection of "voices"), they sense the whole.  It's like an immense guardian that covers all of Erethor.  Dorns on the other hand relate to their specific ancestors, people in their family and clan history.  Mike's suggestion of a "Feels Watched by Ancestors" ability would work with Dorns, but wouldn't mean much for elves I think.  

Quote from: Mike HolmesFirst, next time you want to split a thread, talk to Ron Edwards, the admin, and ask him to do it. He could have saved you a ton of effort, and it would have looked prettier. It was an excellent idea to split, there's just a function in the software that makes it easier.

I know about the split function, only it wouldn't have done what I needed.  I wasn't copying posts mindlessly, I was cutting our religious discussion out of posts that also contained bangs and whatnot - which was the whole point of splitting.  Sorry I couldn't make it look pretty.

QuoteThe question comes down to how the Dorns worship them. Is it about ecstatic worship of some sort? Or is it about sacrificing things to them? Also, from the magic POV, do the Dorns have charms and fetishes that carry parts of their ancestors in them, or do the ancestors teach them how to do things that they did in the past as a form of magic? That is, with animism, you get a part of the spirit in an object, and then it helps you directly: charms and fetishes. With Theism the magic is that you re-enact the ancestor spirit, and that becomes a magically empowering act: a feat.

I don't really see Dorns with either ecstatic worship or with fetishes.  Hero cults and re-enactment on the other hand sound exactly right to me - I have no problem envisaging that kind of ritual take place right in Roland's hall. In fact that duel between Olec and Katrin felt to me much as if it was echoing some eternal heroic fight.  Lucy?  What do you think?

Ok, I now realise I've allowed myself to be dragged off track here. Let me try to refocus on what I want to achieve.  

--

Mike, Nick, you say that without believing in anything, people in Aryth would not be able to resist the Shadow.  I agree.

If you go on to conclude that this means non-Izrador religions are widespread and fervently followed, I disagree. Emphatically.  

For one thing, the whole thematic point of Midnight is that people have lost their religions and are defenceless (religiously) against Izrador.  That's why most people have lost hope and aren't resisting, merely hanging on to life.  That's why the Shadow is able to control the world, even with their god in a severely handicapped state.  That's why it's so difficult and so special to be a resistance fighter in this world. To most people resistance fighters aren't shining paragons and heroes.  They are desperados, madmen, terrorists. That is canon by the way, but it's also one of the things I really, really buy into in this setting;  and it's not just me eager to push through a personal vision here I think.  It's what our play has been about.  

How to hold out against hope?  What to sacrifice to alleviate the suffering of others when you can't be sure that there is a reward, or a tomorrow? If there's no outside entity to tell you what to do, what is left?  Can there be moral values, can there be compassion, can there be a drive to do right that comes only out of yourself, out of your ties to your immediate world (family), and often out of the agony of even these ties having been cruelly cut?  Will you say, Where there's life there's hope?  Or will you keep fighting just because? Because you've got nothing left to lose? Because killing something relieves your pain for moments at a time?  Our most thematically charged and intense moments in this game have been about questions like that.  Oh yes, in D&D.  The theme grew on us like that.

Do we abandon our mission to go after the legate to help this struggling village hide the corpses of the orcs we have killed in the middle of their street?  Or do we focus on the mission and leave these people to be tortured and executed when the next patrol comes through?  They wouldn't help us after all, instead they grow wheat to make bread for orc troops.  That's just one example (nothing to do with my prep, it simply played out like that);  there are more.  

I'm not saying we shouldn't have religion of any sort in this game, I'm not saying that religion should be devoid of any trappings of magic. I am saying I need one of our most powerful themes respected:  the theme of being thrown back on your own devices, the theme of finding strength in yourself.  

---

Lucy, I want you to look at context a bit here.  Do you agree with what I'm saying about theme?  

I feel that your previous character Jez was classic really.  She fought feverishly, as if she was looking for her pain to end if only she could kill enough of the enemy - and then suddenly she turns around full circle and speaks up for the collaborating villagers who need her help.  And then again, with no religion (none that I'm aware of anyway), no surviving family, nothing in the world left but the little band of crazy guerrilla she's joined, she faces down the legate who has captured her and hangs on knowing that if she can keep the legate occupied with her long enough, there might be time for her friend to escape.  Why was she doing this? Loyalty to a sister-in-arms?  Hate of the Shadow?  Sheer stubbornness?  Love?  Maybe any combination of those or something else entirely. My point is, it made her human in a very, very powerful way.  With that character, giving her a strong religion would almost feel like a cop-out.

Now Katrin is someone different obviously.  She takes a lot of support from believing in honour, Dornish traditions, her family, for example.  Maybe she also has a religion, you tell me - if you want we'll work on something for her. But let's not cheapen beliefs in Midnight by tacking on religions all over the place simply because the HQ book has shiny rules in it.  (And I'm liking those rules by now, I can tell you.  But I do think the humanity-in-itself theme that we've developed is worth defending.)

Ancestors didn't get any points on Katrin's sheet, and you decided to give up the Guardian heroic path when we converted (this would have given Katrin magic and a supernaturally-aided feel - as "paladin" as you get in Midnight).  She's a highly honour-bound person obviously - you gave her a very high rating in Honourable, it's almost her highest rating.  But does it have anything to do with religion, or is it upbringing perhaps, or a value highly personal to Katrin, or something else entirely?  

All this can can change obviously if you feel that she needs a different focus or added outside moral support in a religious belief.  Characers can always grow and evolve, and there's a lot of cool stuff we could explore if you'd like to go down that route.  Just be aware that it will be a change to the character as you've played her up to now.

For a religion for Katrin, look at what we have established Dorns are.  Not only who Dorns are compared to Sarcosans, or elves or orcs.  Look also at Dorns in detail, what her father is like, look at Tam, at Roland and Olec.  Try to get a feel for how religious they'd likely be.  Not very?  That's my guess anyway.  (Reifels may actually be a different matter, and it's not making his life any easier.)

How would Katrin fit in there?  Or does she?  Judging by what we've played up to now, I'd say she fits in.  Of course that can change if you want that, but that also will mean something.  She'll be unusual in a different way from before.  How would religious beliefs figure in Katrin's daily life, do you think?  Does she pray, does she make offerings (secretly perhaps?), does she go into trances?  More importantly: how much of her moral beliefs, her understanding of honour, her will to fight do you want to be based on her religion?  Or is religion of marginal importance to her?  (I suspect not, you wouldn't be this enthusiastic about it if it were.) See how the whole characer begins to shift when you introduce religion to it?  Lots of things to consider - or maybe you already have answered them for yourself, I don't know.  All I'm saying is that context is important.  Katrin's own personality that you've established in play;  the people around her;  other cultures, and the overall Midnight theme.

Hm. This is slightly thorny. I agree with all you're saying about theme. And Jez had no religion, no family, no hope of any kind except that which she found in herself and her friendship with Zana. She was all about self-reliance, from start to finish.

How about Katrin, though? Katrin was created as a contrast to that. She has allies, family, a position, and a people (scattered and fragmented as they are) to draw on, all things that Jez lacked. I feel that she also draws strength from thousands of years of Dornish history. Among her love of her family and honouring of her House, she also has Reveres Ancestors in her Dorn keyword. It's at the same rating as the keyword (2W) but it's there on her character sheet, all right. It might not be religious as such, but perhaps it's proto-religious. I'm not entirely sure. I see her as occasionally whispering a prayer to her ancestors to protect her before battle, which is where the reverence comes in, but I'm not sure I see her devoting an hour a day to it or anything like that.

The strength in yourself theme is something that I want to hold onto too, though. I think that if you stripped everything away from Katrin - as perhaps we will, at some point - she would still have awesome personal strength. I'm sorry, this is all very nebulous at the moment, but maybe suddenly deciding that Katrin's been religious all her life isn't what I'm driving at here? Maybe this is something that we should develop and explore in play, rather than suddenly drop into the game from a great height? It would be a cool and interesting thing to introduce, Katrin discovering some kind of personal relationship with her ancestors.

I don't want to suddenly and for no apparent reason make big changes to Katrin - I like her very much as she is - but these are themes I'd like to explore. Maybe that proto-religious reverence for her ancestors might at some point develop into something more concrete and powerful (emotionally and thematically powerful, I mean) in play?

Kerstin, do you see the listed religions in the canon material as a mistake? Should they have not included them? Do they militate against the theme that you're looking for?

Or is it that the belief systems in question are "broken" that creates the despair for the people of this setting?

Think of it this way, if you never had a religion or belief system at all, and then access to such things was taken away, then things would be no different before than after. But you didn't say that it was about people who had no beliefs and who then continue to live in a world which is essentially no different than that with the exception of Izrador. No, it's a hopeless world because they have beliefs but Izrador has cut them off from that which they believe in. Do I have that right?

This is, BTW, very different in this particular detail than Tolkien's stuff. His characters have beliefs, but they're just never brought into question in any way. When the characters need strength, they harken back to their homelands. But it sounds like the homes of the people of Midnight have already been sullied by Izrador encroaching. The canon, at least, is saying that all that they have to hang on to is their old broken beliefs.

What represents this best, IMO, is not ignoring the religion, but putting it in play in such a way that reflects the loss. Again, what I'm thinking is that is sounds like Izrador has cut off the otherworlds from which "specialized magic" comes, leaving only magic that comes from the mundane world. In fact I hear reinforcement of this idea over and over.

So, again, what I'd do is to allow characters to take religion keywords of these specialized magic religions. Heck, I'd even allow them to take the magic keywords, too, but only allow them to have the mundane skills associated - no magic abilities from them. So there might be some whacko out there who claims to be a devotee of some long lost god, following all of the rituals and ways of said god. It just doesn't get them any magic. In fact, this pantomime failing seems perfect to highlight the loss of the gods in the setting.

But for the most part, I think that you'll just have communal worshippers and the like. People who have been taught the basics of the religion, but who realize the futility of trying to delve into it's depths since it no longer gives any magical benefit. Realize that in the HQ model, this level of worship is the "not very" level that you describe. To some extent religion is an inescapable part of a culture. I mean, not to have the "Know Myths" part of the religion at the very least that links the culture part of the keyword to the religious portion is like saying that there might be an American who doesn't know who Jesus is. You might not know the details of his life, but you know he's the one that the Christians worship. If you were brought up in a Christian household, even a very lax one that only participates on Easter, then you have the religion keyword at the communal worshipper level.

Then all of the magic that they can get would be pretty similar to what you have now really. Just use the common magic rules for all magic, representing that all magic comes from the mundane world. Very simply this means that anyone who uses magic gets a rating with the Common Magic Keyword (usually starts at 17), and starts with 5 abilities listed under it.

Now, these abilities can (and I'd argue should) be listed as being one of the standard types: Charms, Feats, Spells, Talents or Natural.

And you can stop there if the player is satisfied at that point. The designations of what sort of magic these things are does say something about where they come from, but that doesn't have to be worked out any more than that, unless people want to do so. If they are interested in where they come from, what you can do at this point is to work up the common magic religion keywords from which the common magic in question comes.

Let's do an example. Let's assume that the Dorn religion was a lot like that of the Heortlings (they sound a lot alike to me the more that I hear about them). That means that the religion keyword would look something like:

Dorn Ancestor Pantheon
Abilities: Boast, Know Lineage, Myths of the Ancestors (this last one should probably actually be part of the cultural part of the homeland keyword - everyone should have heard the stories)
Virtues: Stoic
Relationships: Worship Ancestor Pantheon, to Priest, to Temple
Magic: Diving Intervention 10W12
Other Side: The halls of the ancestors (unavailable due to the veil)

Sample Organizations
Standard List of Gods who were the first Dorns (no magic available, because they're cut off by the Veil).

Despite the lack of magic, you might want to allow an Initiate or devotee to have the "Soul Vision" ability, which would allow them to see theist magic at work (basically it's like "detect magic" but more specific and fun).

Anyhow, I think that a religion keyword like this is very, very important, because it tells you how the character got the value system they have, and something about what that value system is about. Homeland alone is about customs and language and the skills that everyone knows there. It's the religion that tells you where the character's belief system comes from. Again, using the example of Christianity above, each American is taught the Judeo-Christian value set (which doesn't mean that they neccessarily follow it, just that they know what it is). The magic is just fun detail tacked on top, without it you still have the necessary core for what the characters believe.


Then a character might take several common magic feats like the following to represent that magic that you say is still in the canon. Note that I don't have to say where they come from, really, other than to say what kind of magic they are (feats in the example, though you can mix them up if you like):

Stand Bravely Feat
Do Hard Work Willingly Feat
Leap Chasm Feat
Track Enemy Feat
Ignore Pain Feat

Then, if they really wanted to get into it, they could say that these feats come from the "My Ancestors" common magic religion, which is about finding those souls of their ancestors that still wander this world, and gaining what insight one can from them. The keyword could look like:

My Ancestors
Abilities: Find Lost Souls
Virtues: Honors Ancestors
Relationships: Worship Ancestors
Magic: Stand Bravely Feat, Do Hard Work Willingly Feat, Leap Chasm Feat, Track Enemy Feat, Ignore Pain Feat, Drink to the Ancestors Feat, Find Grave Feat, Hear the Dead Feat

So you see where the character was merely taking the magic from the keyword without taking the religion above? That's totally kosher with Common Magic Religions. You don't have to take the keyword if you don't want to - maybe you learned the magic from your father or aunt. But it's there to explain where the magic comes from in case people want to know what the abilities are all about.

In this case (assuming that you went with something like this), this is what the description of the religion might look like:

Most Dorns spend time honoring the souls of their ancestors. Some believe that with the closing of the veil, that their ancestors are unable to pass through to the Halls of the ancestors, and thus they all roam the world in some state waiting to pass. Others believe that some of the souls wait at the veil itself for it to one day fall so they can move on. But whatever the case, many souls do stay on Ayrth. Some Dorns know how to sacrifice to these lost souls and thus gain the abilty to emulate some of the great feats of the past. These abilities are taught to anyone who cares to know about them, but some few people actually organize their efforts and seek these souls to worship them by finding out about them and honoring their names, and to find new feats to emulate these honored individuals.

Anyhow, the point here is that you get the magic that I think you're looking for, and in addition, you get the sense that there's this larger religion that's no longer properly functioning. Yes you can get magic from your ancestors, but only because something is wrong with how things are supposed to work (the My Ancestor thing may have existed before the closing of the Veil, for the odd soul who didn't make it across, but is now more prominent because of the closing).

So if somebody wants to play with the My Ancestor thing, you can have them find souls of ancestors of which they were previously unaware, and have them exhort the characters to find a way to pierce the veil so they can get home. The character can ask about what the ancestor did when alive, and he can show them how if they sacrifice to him they can emulate these feats. Maybe Aunt Jeera healed somebody with her tears once, so the character can learn the Healing Tears Feat.

So does this give you an example of what I'm talking about? I think that rather than interfering with the theme of self-sufficiency, it adds to it. That is, yeah, the character can go to his ancestors and get this little magic from them (note that it's likely that a character won't be able to concetrate their magic with these, so they'll almost always be augments only), but it only serves to remind them that they've been cut off from the great god ancestors, and that really all they have is the beings around them. If you really want to emphasize how bad things are, have them find some ancestors who have been tainted by Izrador's might (AKA your standard undead). Useless for worshipping and dangerous, their best bet is to destroy the incarnation any way they can, and hope that the soul moves on to the veil to wait.

And, again, this all assumes that the player wants to get involved with this. They can have the common magic, and not take the religion. In fact you don't even have to work up the religion if you don't want to, so this is very much what you have already, allowing players to take magic that has no particular explanation of where it comes from. The idea here is just to allow for the possibility, so that the players know that the magic isn't just "from nowhere" that if they looked into it, they'd find the source of it eventually (in fact they probably do know what it is, even if it's not been established for the players).

So you wouldn't have to make any big changes to Katrin, perhaps only adding the religion keyword, and deciding that her abilities were feats or talents or some mix of things. So that there's a feeling that behind the magic somewhere is a real connection to the setting. Then, at a later date, should you want to delve into where her abilites come from, you can create any CM religions that might exist (or just the beings in question - some CM just has no religion associated with it at all, but just comes from some being).

Note that the above are just examples, certainly not to be taken verbatim without reworking I'm sure that knowing the setting material better than I, that you could do a better job with them. I'm just trying to give you an idea of what's involved here.

Mike

Quote from: Mike HolmesThink of it this way, if you never had a religion or belief system at all, and then access to such things was taken away, then things would be no different before than after. But you didn't say that it was about people who had no beliefs and who then continue to live in a world which is essentially no different than that with the exception of Izrador. No, it's a hopeless world because they have beliefs but Izrador has cut them off from that which they believe in. Do I have that right?

Not really, no. There's two steps to it:  

Step 1:  9,000 years ago Izrador fell and Aryth (the planet) was sundered from its god.  That's the point at which people would have despaired over broken belief systems.  

Step 2:  99 years ago, Izrador's armies overran human lands and gained control of them.  

If we were playing 9,000 years ago, your argument about broken religions and people's beliefs being characterised by that loss would be strong, very strong. But we aren't.  We are playing several ages of the world later.  Twice over the intervening millennia, Izrador tried to conquer the world, twice he was been beaten by fighting alliances of humans, elves and dwarves.  The third time round (99 years ago) he managed to undermine the resistance (some of the Night Kings are the greatest heros of the Third Age), and won.  

This defeat of the people of the free world isn't about the loss of gods; that happened 9,000 years ago. People were doing ok without gods.  It is about the loss of unity, about hope and about betrayal.

That's canon.    

And yeah, I do think the Midnight material is inconsistent here. Most of the homeland descriptions have religious bits in them (the ones I quoted from) - but they are just sitting there and don't really have impact on other parts of the material.  



More later.  Deadline looming.

Having read through this thread, it sounds to me like:

- for most humans on the "good" side there is no specialized magic key word.  Although a selection of common magic might be appropriate.

- There probably are animism specialized magic key words.  Certain groups know how to get along with the spirits of the world well enough that they can get spirits into charms, maybe into fetishes.  This sounds like it might be the case with some of the elves, maybe some others.  Note that the abilities of the charm or fetish are basically whatever the spirit does, so just because this magic is available doesn't mean that it is useful enough to most people to make them bother.

Of course, what makes things interesting is when you bring things into conflict :)  I don't know what the canon is on this, but what if something like the "old" religion and its beliefs persist, viewing itself as the pure, untainted way.  The spirits of the dead are sent off, and if they are stuck at the veil well, we still did the right thing.  Then some newer group worships these ancestor spirits, in ecstatic rites, and is able to contact and bind some of them.  To the old-style purists this would be a horrible heresy, enslaving your ancestor who should be in the halls of the dead?  What next, you'll bind him into a corpse to make a Fell?  Just an idea....

Another idea, related to the "how far would you stoop to fight evil" theme.  If you look at the sections in HQ about landscape spirits, you'll see how people can worship them and use them like a guardian--or make charms of of them, weakening them.  Now it sounds like maybe the mirrors suck all the magic out of the land, probably including weakening spirits of the land?  So are you willing to pillage the spirits of the land for magic, when they will end up drained by the mirrors anyway?

Sorry that these are probably off the topic that you were thinking of, but they popped to mind reading all of this in one shot.

--Bryan

I disagree with you, Kerstin, but it's your game so do what you think is best. I'm done trying to change your mind.

Bryan, I think that some of what's labeled as Spirits might be animist spirits, but I think that they might be other things as well, as I've said. That is, they're using it as a generic term for otherworld being. Look more at how the religions work to see if they're really animist or some other type.

Mike

Thanks for commenting, Bryan.  If I develop a better idea of magic in Midnight, I will certainly want conflict in it as well.  Mike is right about the "spirits" I think. If it's the form of worship that defines the type of otherworldly being, then many Midnight "spirits" aren't (although some are).  


Mike, very sorry if I'm being boneheaded here. I highly appreciate your input on this (I think I've said so already), I've learnt a lot from this discussion about what makes HQ religion cool, and I agree with you on many aspects.  Still, at this point I can't follow you where you're going with the religion examples you wrote up, not sure how to pin that down.  I very much agree with you in not wanting to go through another loop of our discussion, which has turned weirdly circular.  So I'm now going through the HQ book step by step again to see where (if anywhere) our disagreement starts and I'll report on what I find out.  

As always, as and when I come up with more thoughts your comments will be more than welcome.  Though of course I'll understand if you feel that you've done enough here.  In any case even if we haven't reached a workable solution yet, your advice in this thread generally has been fantastic for me, and even where we couldn't agree it has helped me think more clearly about what I might possibly want, or not want, from Midnight metaphysics.  So thanks.

Quote from: StalkingBlueMike, very sorry if I'm being boneheaded here.

Not at all, just different viewpoints.

Actually it's been commented that the material on how magic works actually does go too far in some ways by others than yourself. And in a way I agree. My POV is simply that it's good inspiriation for how to think about religion in play, not that you have to use any of it verbatim.

So I'm sure that what you're doing will continue to work.

Mike

Hi Kerstin:
Sorry to hop in late here. I know you're not too keen on my conversion for Midnight-HQ and I respect that. But I highly recommend you take a second look at the religions in that document. Other than Peers, which I created as sort of a religious interface between Legates and the common populace, 90% of what is in there is straight from either the Midnight corebook or Against the Shadow. I didn't add for the sake of adding and, where I did, I made notes of the additions. Mike and Lael were major motivators on this end.

Canon is a funny thing to bring into these sort of conversion things. Everyone's canon is different, primarily because everyone tends to focus on the bits of a setting that interest them and then either forget or file away the rest.

That said. I didn't invent a SpiritWorld for Midnight. There is already one there. IIRC, it's in the Corebook but the best I remember of it off the top of my head is that it's where the Astiraxes live in their visible form. Remember they only pop in and out every now and again in Aryth.

There are also spirits that reside in this Spirit World, as on Aryth, trapped by Izrador drawing the Veil.

Now, here's where I'm not sure if I get the utility of the Spirit World right according to canon or add in my own logical extensions of the existence of this Spirit World. To my thinking, in Midnight, when someone dies one of three things happen: 1) they rise again as Fell, 2) their spirit is trapped on the material plane as a ghost or whatnot, 3) they go to the Spirit World. There really aren't any other options afforded by the setting.

I've always thought, and this is quite possibly just my own interpretation of the material, that the "SpiritWorld" was where Izrador lived in proper form. Bodiless, of course. But it was where he was most powerful and that the mirrors existed as gates or linkages between Aryth and his consciousness. Now whether the Legates and Orcs are trying to raise Izrador in bodily form or just keep him where he is to bide the time and further their own agendas I'll leave up to whoever wants to answer. But I've felt that Izrador feeds through these mirrors and also, by his presence, off the souls of the dead in the Spirit World. Now that part is 100% my interpretation but there is some corroboration in the text for that line of thinking (the fact that magic is tougher and tougher to cast within certain proximities of the mirrors for instance).

Now, if there is a spirit world and there are "spirits" (which the corebook mentions in a number of areas), then Animism is possible. In fact, it's all over the Midnight-HQ conversion, including a number of example spirits with abilities taken straight from the text of the corebook (or a close approximation thereof).

In Midnight-HQ, the Dorns' religion (Ancestor Worship) is misapplied. They *should* be using Animism to deal with the *spirits* of their elders. Instead, according to the conversion, they're treating it as a form of Theism. They're worshipping the spirits of their elders. The conversion keeps in mind that there are no gods left on Aryth, just Izrador. So the worship of anything in the conversion is considered misapplied.

Now, that may not be how you want to treat it in your game, which is fine. But I don't think it would hurt to consider it as an option or to glean it for material. I don't see a good reason to reinvent the Heepa-Heepa spirits in the conversion just to do it. Like I said, most everything in there is straight from either the corebook or Against the Shadows. Just take it. Twist it to your needs, add in any bits from the later supplements and have fun.

Another question that Mike posed that I tried to offer a non-canonical answer to was introducing Peers into the world of Midnight. Just like Mike, I questioned why anyone would want to worship Izrador. Brute force and fear only goes so far in my book. So I came up with Peers, which is, again, 100% non-canon. The conversion says as much. In fact, almost every point where I deviated from the text of the two early publications I've noted it in the conversion, as well as made it optional for inclusion.

Peers are the liturgists of Midnight. They lead the masses in prayers and supplications to Izrador, who answers them when he wants to. Peers are a notch on the stepladder to Legatedom for most and, as such, can be as evil and ambitious or as good-hearted and well-intentioned as you like. Peers would be like village priests or friars. Legates are more like Bishops, Deacons and Archbishops in this arrangement. Admittedly, this might not be something you want to consider including but it certainly gives the general populace a reason (and means) to worship Izrador. After all, their old gods certainly aren't going to answer their prayers. And who else is going to ensure good crops this season?

Again, I apologize for stepping into this discussion late. I hope you've found my input helpful.

Scott

Hiya Scott - first, thanks for commenting.

Quote from: ScriptyI know you're not too keen on my conversion for Midnight-HQ and I respect that.

Not keen?  That's not entirely accurate.  I couldn't have begun converting my own game if I hadn't had your document showing me some possible ways to go, and providing lots of nifty ideas to borrow.  I owe you for that.  

But what with my reading of Midnight canon differing from yours on a number of issues, and with what we've established about the settings and the cultures in it in almost a year of play, I needed material that looked different from yours in many details.  But that is a matter of YMWV, not a matter of not being keen.  

An example: as much as I love your take on Dorns as a broken culture (makes me think of Native Americans in the late 19th century or so), we have established other facts about Dorns in our Midnight, mostly through two PCs. The Dorns we have now are cool, too - but different.  Scattered, landless, many of them migrant orcmen, yes. Culturally broken, no. By now we even have two types of subculture in the game - urban and "wild".  

If I'd known about HQ before I ever started selling a possible MN game to my players, your conversion would likely have had a much greater impact on our game. (That's as true for the Fury of Shadow supplement btw.)

QuoteBut I highly recommend you take a second look at the religions in that document.

Been doing that. Work has caught up with me again lately, so I'm not making as much progress as I'd like, but I'm currently rereading both your doc and the HQ religion chapters and trying to order my thoughts.  It has struck me that if I want to consider religion in more depth for Midnight, the first thing I'll have to work out is how the dominant religion works:  Izrador's Church.

I like your take of it being misapplied Wizardry, so if I move away from my simplified approach towards more religions, that's likely what I'll do.  I also kind of like the idea of having Peers, but I wouldn't want to give them access to specialised magic. Again, that's more to do with the tone of my game than with whether it's canon or not. Specialised magic, if any, should remain extremely rare in my game.

QuoteCanon is a funny thing to bring into these sort of conversion things. Everyone's canon is different, primarily because everyone tends to focus on the bits of a setting that interest them and then either forget or file away the rest.

And also extrapolate from incomplete references.  Midnight especially lends itself to that sort of thing because it's written in a style that evokes rather than state hard facts or build a coherent system.  Which is one of its great strengths IMO (although I always get scolded for this attitude over on Todd's forums): it evokes themes and gives you a chance to charge the game with those themes that appeal to you and ignore or fade out the rest.

Now to take this thought one step further, exactly what is or isn't canon doesn't concern me too much at this point. I'm not writing a conversion that I'm hoping will appear to large numbers of people, I'm merely struggling to convert over one specific, thematically charged game.  So what I am concerned with at this point in time is whether (and if so, how) I can find a way to work HQ religion stuff into our game without detracting from what we have already built.  I've tried to explain in earlier posts what I think that is - people fighting Izrador being thrown back on themselves and their own resources.  Hoping against hope (we have that), perhaps also believing against belief (we haven't had that yet).

QuoteThat said. I didn't invent a SpiritWorld for Midnight. There is already one there. IIRC, it's in the Corebook but the best I remember of it off the top of my head is that it's where the Astiraxes live in their visible form. Remember they only pop in and out every now and again in Aryth.

Really? I don't think I've come across that. Just saying. Again, whether it's canon or not doesn't concern me much. If it looks like it fits into our game I'll consider it, although I quite like the idea of Astiraxes tagging along with their legates all the time (which is what's been happening in our game up to now, as far as anyone knows).  

QuoteI've always thought, and this is quite possibly just my own interpretation of the material, that the "SpiritWorld" was where Izrador lived in proper form.

Interesting. So where do channelers get their magic from? Is it specialised magic even, do you think? If it is, it would have to come from an otherworld, wouldn't it?  Now if the one otherworld on Aryth has Izrador in his most powerful form in it, it makes me wonder how channelers are going to get magic from there, and why it's even necessary to hunt them down with Astiraxes in the mortal world.  It seems to me it would be easier to kill them off, or taint them, when they are on the other side.  

QuoteNow, if there is a spirit world and there are "spirits" (which the corebook mentions in a number of areas), then Animism is possible. In fact, it's all over the Midnight-HQ conversion, including a number of example spirits with abilities taken straight from the text of the corebook (or a close approximation thereof).

Daimones, actually. The type of worship mentioned most frequently is offerings, not ecstatic dancing/drinking/drumming or such like.

QuoteAnother question that Mike posed that I tried to offer a non-canonical answer to was introducing Peers into the world of Midnight. Just like Mike, I questioned why anyone would want to worship Izrador. Brute force and fear only goes so far in my book.

Oh, I have a non-magical explanation for that. Church and temporal power aren't exactly distinct in Midnight. There is law of a kind, but it's skewed.  If you want legal protection of any kind, you have to be a worshipper (or at least pretend to be) and have to turn up to weekly worship.

For example, murder and theft are crimes that are punished heavily.  But killling or stealing from someone who's not a member of the congregation doesn't count. If you want to travel, you better had dispensation and a good idea of who to report to when you arrive at your destination, so you can temporarily worship in the local church.

QuoteLegates are more like Bishops, Deacons and Archbishops in this arrangement. Admittedly, this might not be something you want to consider including but it certainly gives the general populace a reason (and means) to worship Izrador. After all, their old gods certainly aren't going to answer their prayers. And who else is going to ensure good crops this season?

That, too. Always assuming Izrador's servants can actually bless crops. Unlikely in my case unfortunately, because in my game Shadow magic is the antithesis to life. What they can do is assure that only part of your harvest is taken away, that you may hope for compensation when orcs trample your fields (again...), and that you can trade your produce lawfully for other goods and services in a Church-regulated market.

That said, I still like a low-level clergy. And coming to think, perhaps there could be common magic "growth" spells that help pump up a harvest... they'd likely have unnatural-looking effects though. Plants shooting up, wheat too heavy on the grain, insects falling dead, lack of flavour and scent... Like modern agriculture, in fact.  Hey, I'm beginning to like that.

I'll try to post something more coherent in the next few days, I have notes on Izrador's Church sprawling all over the place. At this point I haven't a clue whether any of it will see play though. At least one of my players, whose PC grew up in Baden's Bluff, doesn't seem thrilled by the notion that her character might have attended Izrador's weekly service in her youth.

Quote from: StalkingBlueNot keen?  That's not entirely accurate.  I couldn't have begun converting my own game if I hadn't had your document showing me some possible ways to go, and providing lots of nifty ideas to borrow.  I owe you for that.

Oh, my bad then. For some reason, I had thought that you'd looked over the Midnight-HQ doc and didn't like it. That was why my last post was more along the lines of "glean it for spirit stats and ideas".

Quote from: StalkingBlueI like your take of it being misapplied Wizardry, so if I move away from my simplified approach towards more religions, that's likely what I'll do.  I also kind of like the idea of having Peers, but I wouldn't want to give them access to specialised magic. Again, that's more to do with the tone of my game than with whether it's canon or not. Specialised magic, if any, should remain extremely rare in my game.

Actually, the worship of Izrador isn't misapplied if using the rules for Monotheism in the Wizardry chapter. I always thought it was kind of confusing myself -- Monotheism, Orderlies, Adepts. But it works for the cosmology of Glorantha. In Midnight-HQ, Peers use Monotheism and Legates use Wizardry, for the most part. Some Legates are more like Orderlies, depending upon their faction. Others use Animism.

Personally, one of the pitfalls of my creating Midnight-HQ was that I was a bit unfamiliar with the system. It was all bells and whistles for me. I had run two or three mini-campaigns with it and read it backwards and forwards a few times. That said, I wanted to use Animism, Wizardry, Theism, you name it.

Now, I don't think that was necessarily the way to go. While there are some aspects of defining the religions in Midnight-HQ (such as the use of Animism for the Jungle Elves) that I felt enhanced the setting, there are a number of instances where I feel I went a bit overboard too.

If I were to do the same conversion over again, it would likely be much more simplified. And that is due, in no small part, to my experience in Mike's Shadow World game. Mike's Shadow World conversion is much more straightforward than my Midnight conversion and, I think, more effective because of that. There are still some things I really like about Midnight-HQ, but I have enough distance now to see that there's a lot there that probably isn't (and wasn't) necessary.

Quote from: StalkingBlueMidnight especially lends itself to that sort of thing because it's written in a style that evokes rather than state hard facts or build a coherent system.  Which is one of its great strengths IMO (although I always get scolded for this attitude over on Todd's forums): it evokes themes and gives you a chance to charge the game with those themes that appeal to you and ignore or fade out the rest.

I totally agree. That's one of the things I love about Midnight too. The "canonical" stuff is really pretty cut-and-dry. But everything's pretty optional too. I'd never scold you for taking that kind of position. In fact, I built Midnight-HQ, initially, as a document for personal use. It was only when I started sending it to people that I had to worry about "canon" or what was (or wasn't) in the books.

Quote from: StalkingBlueInteresting. So where do channelers get their magic from? Is it specialised magic even, do you think? If it is, it would have to come from an otherworld, wouldn't it?  Now if the one otherworld on Aryth has Izrador in his most powerful form in it, it makes me wonder how channelers are going to get magic from there, and why it's even necessary to hunt them down with Astiraxes in the mortal world.  It seems to me it would be easier to kill them off, or taint them, when they are on the other side.

In my thinking, Channelers (and really all magically based abilities) are derived from the following:
working with spirits that exist either on the material plane or in the Spirit World, from artifacts left on Aryth (this includes magical items and spellbooks) and from their own personal reserves (this accounts for Channelers who've learned to focus their life-energies). I've also reasoned that there must be some sort of residual energy left in Aryth itself. This is where I think characters get their heroic paths from.

Since the Veil has split Aryth from the Divine, my thinking is that Aryth (in an attempt to balance the situation) is "creating" its own avatars, so to speak, by imbuing certain "champions" with special abilities or powers. In a sense, Aryth is enacting its own myths on the material plane. Sort of a metaphysical-balance-of-nature-thing.

It's my interpretation that the only other-world that exists on Aryth is the spirit-plane I spoke of. And that's pretty much where spirits go to be tormented by Astiraxes and eventually gobbled up by Izrador himself. (Gives a good reason for spirits to work extra-special hard to stay on the material plane as Fell, eh?)

Trying to connect all forms of magic with an Otherworld is not the way I wanted to go with Midnight-HQ. I found it difficult to make a hybrid of Glorantha and Aryth because, according to the cosmology of Glorantha, nothing world work on Aryth except limited forms of Animism and the worship of Izrador. Everything else would have lost its magical power because the connection with their Otherworlds was severed. How, exactly, a theistic or monotheistic entity would have accomplished a severing of the Animistic, Theistic and (gosh, can't remember the term) Wizardisitic (ha!) spheres and how that would affect magic as a whole (as well as that entity) is an interesting metaphysical discussion best settled by more knowledgeable Gloranthites than myself.

So, I didn't try to reconcile the two cosmologies. I just pulled out what I thought would work for Aryth. In retrospect, I think I even pulled out too much.

Quote from: StalkingBlueThat, too. Always assuming Izrador's servants can actually bless crops. Unlikely in my case unfortunately, because in my game Shadow magic is the antithesis to life. What they can do is assure that only part of your harvest is taken away, that you may hope for compensation when orcs trample your fields (again...), and that you can trade your produce lawfully for other goods and services in a Church-regulated market.

I really like your splitting up the citizenry around the worship of Izrador. That's a really neat take on it. If you don't mind, I'll likely swipe that should I ever get a chance to run a Midnight game again.

Another way to think about Shadow Magic, though, is that it can (or does) actually "bless" a crop. But what effect would that have on the crop? Maybe corn grows with the blessing of a Legate or Peer but the ears are blood-red, instead of white or yellow. Maybe tomatoes ripen to a deep shade of black and taste bitter now. That's how I was looking at it. You're right. It's still Shadow Magic. It's still evil magic. But I never thought that meant it couldn't be used by the worshippers to affect certain necessary results. Besides, I thought that the presence of really warped food supplies (things like calves being born with two heads or beanstalks growing with poisonous thorns on them) fit the mood of something being horribly wrong with Aryth.

Quote from: StalkingBlueThat said, I still like a low-level clergy. And coming to think, perhaps there could be common magic "growth" spells that help pump up a harvest... they'd likely have unnatural-looking effects though. Plants shooting up, wheat too heavy on the grain, insects falling dead, lack of flavour and scent... Like modern agriculture, in fact.  Hey, I'm beginning to like that.

Ah. If only I'd read a couple sentences further... :) I think you've got the idea. I recommend looking a little deeper into the Monotheism rules, though. Liturgists, AFAIK, don't really use their magical abilities as active magic in the sense that Theists do. Liturgists gather congregations to give everyone in the congregation a bonus towards some task. They can also curse other groups or even specific members but I don't think it translates into fireballs raining down on the targets or anything. Based on the results of the contest, the targets get the same kind of bonus or penalty (+10%, +1, -10%, -1, -50%) as with any other kind of magic. But the scope of the magic limits how it is applied. Therefore, even though, IIRC, it technically works like a concentrated magic (other than the Liturgist needing worshippers present), the results are much more bonus/penalty oriented, which can be interpreted any number of ways by the devious GM. (i.e. black boils on the skin of a cursed person, an unnerving frequency of astiraxes finding the target, a married couple acting like zombies after their ceremony or maybe a stillborn or horribly deformed or irredeemably evil first child) ...you get the idea.

Again, I hope this helps. I'm envious that you're getting to play Midnight with the HQ rules. I've been sort of "out-of-the-group" since relocating last year. Due to time constraints, life upheavels and general geographic limitations, I haven't had the opportunity or chance to even consider running anything, much less be closely involved with something as fun as we're discussing, although I'm hoping that might change soon.

Thanks for the discussion.

Scott

Quote from: StalkingBlueLucy, I want you to look at context a bit here.  Do you agree with what I'm saying about theme?  

I feel that your previous character Jez was classic really.  She fought feverishly, as if she was looking for her pain to end if only she could kill enough of the enemy - and then suddenly she turns around full circle and speaks up for the collaborating villagers who need her help.  And then again, with no religion (none that I'm aware of anyway), no surviving family, nothing in the world left but the little band of crazy guerrilla she's joined, she faces down the legate who has captured her and hangs on knowing that if she can keep the legate occupied with her long enough, there might be time for her friend to escape.  Why was she doing this? Loyalty to a sister-in-arms?  Hate of the Shadow?  Sheer stubbornness?  Love?  Maybe any combination of those or something else entirely. My point is, it made her human in a very, very powerful way.  With that character, giving her a strong religion would almost feel like a cop-out.

The Zana-Jez bond was awesomely powerful I felt, really visceral.  I think that's something very Tolkienesque about your Midnight campaign - that there is nothing stronger than the power of Friendship.  Friendship is a huge central theme in Lord of the Rings, it's what gives Frodo & Sam the power to endure and win through.  Maybe in Midnight it's all that's worth fighting for, the band of brothers (sisters, in this case).  :)  I definitely thought the most powerful moments of the campaign centred on the relations between the PCs.   I'm not sure how Heroquest can model this, since it seemed to be an emergent property of the D&D game, unsupported by the rules.  Unselfish acts on behalf of one's friends could reasonably be granted big bonuses I think under a "Friend" attribute - and the Shadow is friendless.  :)

Quote from: StalkingBlueBut I do think the humanity-in-itself theme that we've developed is worth defending.

The value of humanity-in-itself, when all else has been stripped away, is a very central theme of your Midnight game I think.  It feels a profoundly atheist and Humanist message; not exactly Nietzschean - there isn't the contempt for the Herd, just a sadness that most people are too weak to oppose the Shadow, and a lot of compassion (from Lucy's PCs, anyway!) :)

I think there's a problem with using Heroquest for Midnight religion in that it's developed for a gameworld emphasising very very different themes, a very spiritual, pagan message.  In Heroquest-Glorantha, humans reach out to become one with the cosmos, in Midnight humans are cut off from the cosmos and ground down to a tiny defiant nub of vitality holding out against the encroaching dark.