The Forge Archives

Quote from: Mike Holmes
The point is that if you're playing the character's SAs, then you can create interesting conflicts for characters. In Nobilis you play gods. Is that a problem? Well, no you say because in that game you all play gods. But then I point out that what you're talking about again is the disparity between the power levels of differing characters. So, again, you must be worried about balance. Worry about creating conflicts for each character individually, and it all works out. Things like sorcerers as challenges for sorcerer PCs suddenly become rather obvious.

Mike

Hm. I've never played Nobilis. I've heard some good things about it and have considered picking it up.

Frankly, it isn't about the balance thing, for me. I've played Ars Magica plenty of times, and there is a clear disparity between Wizards and their companions and grogs. I think what its been for me isn't whether one is more powerful than another, but how MUCH more powerful? Do the other characters offer something not provided by the rest?

As an example, Wizards are clearing the most powerful in Ars Magica - but they are lacking in the various skills and combatative abilities provided for by the companions and grogs. Therefore, they still have a place, still offer something to the group as a whole.

As opposed to this, Sorcerers in TROS appear, at least in some ways, to be so much more powerful that they seem capable of making the contributions of the other characters somewhat superfluous at best. It appears to make the other characters look like the sidekicks to the Sorcerer's star of the show.

Perhaps that doesn't make sense, or perhaps you disagree. The approach I'm taking, though, is this: everyone wants to play; everyone wants to feel that they are bringing something important to the table. Obviously, for people like many of us here, roleplaying itself is one of the important things to bring to the table. However, from the standpoint of party make-up, everyone wants to be able to contribute something to the group's efforts. Should there be but one sorcerer in the party, and his magics makes all efforts from the other party members unnecessary, they will feel like its a one-man game with them just there for decoration.

Am I saying that will happen in every game? No. But I've seen such things happen even in games with enforced game balance. Take D&D for example. We ended up having a GM whose game style ended up, unintentionally, favoring spellcaster types; they ended up having far more to do, far more to participate in. One of the characters in the party was the only one who had nothing to do most of the time, because he had zero magical widgets.

And yes, that was clearly the GM's fault. But that was in a game with balance in the classes. What happens when the disparity in power level isnt just great, but so great that one character can handle, well, ANY situation better than the rest of the group combined? He can wave his hands, solve the puzzle, get the treasure, and strike the villain dead without leaving his castle, and the others just sit down and watch him do his work, wistfully wishing they were sorcerers too so they at least had something to do?

I've seen exactly this happen both in TROS and in other games with similar problems. A game shouldnt have to have a DM WORK at making sure the other PCs have something to do simply because the game mechanics makes one character type utterly overshadow the others.

Ars Magica is a great example; wizards are the most powerful, but all have something to offer. TROS... well, I havent played or GMed enough to know for sure. I have my concerns. I would certainly HOPE they are unwarranted, because I DO love the game overall quite a bit. I'm going to be trying to run a campaign in the near future, and I'm going to encourage them to play either TROS, DC Heroes, or Godlike/Wild Talents. If they choose TROS, I plan on not allowing wizards at first while we master the system together; then I will request one of them to play a sorcerer so I can get some real solid first-hand knowledge to speak of, rather than the one-shots I've been doing so far.

EDIT: Actually, Mike, I guess you are somewhat correct in one regard; in a way, I do want a BIT more balance. I do want mundanes to be able to challenge sorcerers a bit more than they can now. As in Ars Magica, wizards are top of the heap, but not so much so that they need not fear the church or the nobility. Sorcerers in TROS, in comparison, are significantly more powerful; depending on what the Seneschal lets them get away with, the idea of destroying cities is not out of reach.

However, my biggest concern is whether they utterly invalidate adventures with the waves of their hands, while at the same time making the non-sorcerers feel like sidekicks with little to offer the group as a whole. Then again, as before, I've just run and played in one-shots so far, so obviously my experience is a bit weaker than those that have played full-fledged campaigns. I'd welcome a few stories on the true impact seen by sorcerers in campaigns versus nonsorcerers.

Exactly the point I was thinking of when I first responded to this topic. If one character can single handedly overpower an adventure and sideline the other players from having any fun.. what is the point in playing then? The object of playing is to have fun.. and how can you do that if one person is going around solving everything, doing anything he feels like.

GM's in TROS need to think more like the real world. To every action there is a reaction, and well.. there are consequences as well. If someone is using magic too much.. have him be hunted by a group of sorcerors or some such event that creates a situation where the sorceror has to skip town or otherwise not use magic for risk of being further discovered and tracked down... and this also can bring in the other characters to be on the lookout for a group of suspicious looking people that might be going around carrying out an investigation..
You might even bring in a group of wizards that keep an eye out on everything going on in a particular region.. such as the government is a group in the movie 'Enemy of the State'... and(diverting from the plot of the movie) the sorceror's frequent magic use might run the risk of magic being discovered in the area and over-night creating a nationwise manhunt for anyone with the gift. The people hunting down the sorcerors might be other sorcerors, Fey, the church.. etc.

I do not agree with limiting the scope and capability of magic.. but I would control its use.. it is meant to be concealed.. for it to be rare.. and for it to be used wisely.
-Ingenious

Hell yeah there's sorcerers in the inquisition.

Jake

Quote from: Jake NorwoodHell yeah there's sorcerers in the inquisition.

If sufficiently Faith-ful, those sorcerers might not even know they're sorcerers... and the Formalization process is what they think of as holy and secret rituals of the Three... and of course it isn't sorcery; why, do you see any marks of Death upon us?  That is because we invoke the Gods not with unholy arts, but with Passion, Faith and Drive....

I always enjoy irony of that type.

Quote from: Ben LehmanFor ideas about what a world full of TROS sorcerers might actually be like, behind the scenes, I recommend reading the fantasy series "A Man of His Word," by Dave Duncan.  I don't want to spoil the plot, for people who care about such things, but suffice it to say that Sorcerers have a dog pile and, if you aren't at the top, you are likely to be enslaved by magic and used for whatever twisted purposes your superior wants.

Stay... Hidden...

Hell yeah, bloody good series actually.

And Dave Duncan himself is a great guy, we corresponded via email for a bit a few years back. Pity much of his older stuff is out of print (although I have most of it) but if anyone gets the chance, most certainly read the "A Man of his Word" series and even more so the Seventh Sword trilogy.

Sorry, a bit OT there.

Brian.

Is there a TROS magic supplement planned?  Becuase, I winder if this issue could actually be used fruitfully.  That is, if the opportunity was taken to address and discuss these ideas and some constructive advice given, it might be an interesting extension of the product in tis own right.

OK, so lets say, the disparity in player power is not an issue necessarily, and one might say that it just requires a different structure.  But, if some advice can be given on how to build that structure, it could potentiually open play to a lot of new scope.

I would like to call for people who HAVE succesfully integegrated characters with such disparate power levels to give more details on how they did so and specifically, what sort of dynamics they found between the PLAYERS in these games.

One form I could see employed is the Ars Magica Wizard-and-Grog approach.  You have one character on which much of the nominal importance of in game action hinges, and the others are to an extent "in this story" because they associated with this one.  I've seen this done perfectly satisfyingly in Vampire games. Although it might seem at first sight that this relegates the other character to insignificance, in fact in practice its no more than a pretext like meeting a hooded wizard in a bar and being hired for a mission.   If you set up a scenario in which the reasons the characters associate is that on one side the wizard is a meal ticket, and on the other the "mundanes" are the necessary henchmen, you might get a good game.  Mutual dependanncy does not have to be symmetrical.  I've also seen players spontaneously adopt, and have great fun with, partially antagonistic relationships of this kind in a Cyberpunk game, where one character was the fixer and the rest were essentially hirelings.  This can actually add a certain frisson to all the character interactions while the players, in full knowledge and consent, don't push it quite too far.

What else could be used?

Maybe being magically endowed necessarily makes you a major social figure.  Then, the other characters status rests entirely on their being the Favoured Ones of the wizard-character.  As with the above, this nuances the inter-player relationhsip without necessarily making it unequal, IMO.

The reason I think this sort of approach is potentially more accessible in TROS is that the SA's mechanically reinforce the players seeeking their own agendas.  For all you might have some real power distnction between the wizard character and the warrior character, each character individually has their own self-motivating attributes.  Player action will necessarily be about more than just thast power distinction.  An objective goal to which the wizard can provide a wham bam thank you ma'am solution is not really the point, something the player can get their characters personal teeth into is the point.

QuoteAs opposed to this, Sorcerers in TROS appear, at least in some ways, to be so much more powerful that they seem capable of making the contributions of the other characters somewhat superfluous at best.

I agree that Sorcerers are so powerful that it the other characters cannot hold a candle to them in any way shape or form. Sorcerers in terms of power completely and totally are waaaay better than any other individual. But it doesn't matter. Because the game isn't about who can kick more ass. That would be D&D.

QuoteIt appears to make the other characters look like the sidekicks to the Sorcerer's star of the show.

See, what makes the other characters non-sidekicks is that they're featured by what's important to them. By your estimation, Frodo wasn't a main character in LotR, because Gandalf was in the story. You can do this with TROS, because the rules center around the SAs.

You're stuck in the "party" mentality. And until you do, you won't "get" TROS. It's not about some group who band together for no particularly good reason for mutual defense against monsters. It's about individuals who are off looking for their own answers to a riddle. And no amount of power in another character can take that away from the individual. You could be playing next to a god, and it wouldn't matter.

Every character will have his time in the spotlight unless the GM isn't doing his job. Which is very, very easy, you just put stuff that relates to the character's SA in front of him. If you find TROS difficult at all, then you're trying to get a plot to happen or are playing dungeon crawls or something. Because coming up with stuff for each character to be cool is as hard as looking at his SAs.

Mike

Mike Holmes, with that reply, you have just made yourself my idol! :)

Mike!

Man, I've been waiting two years for someone to get it.  Right the hell on!

You'd lead a wizards council my man.

Hail.

Here's another aspect you might want to consider:

Casting aging spells makes your hair and nails grow, right? I've seen a man in TV with nails about 30cm long. They weren't thing, but almost round at the base. If someone's nails grow for several months' worth of time, would they also be thicker? So even if they were cut, for some time to come, they would be thicker than normal nails are. The inquisition, for example, might be familiar with this aspect, and thus they'd also burn people who they consider to have unnaturally thick nails.

I can see it now..

All sorcerers must take flaw: Compulsive habit used to hide their identity as a sorcerer. Some sorcerer constantly file their nails. Others meticulously trim their beards. Still others use daily herbal skin treatments to keep their skin looking young and healthy.

::chuckles lightly:: And what makes it all the more amusing is that I can easily see these neurotic tendencies becoming standard traits among sorcerers, giving the inquisition even more keys to notice. It's a vicious, vicious cycle.

Well, it does make sense, you don't have to alter the setting to incorporate it, it's totally mechanics-free (except for the aging rolls)...

Welcome to the Inquisition!

"Trust no one over 30!"

Future home of Logan's Run...

Quote from: Mike Holmes

QuoteBecause the game isn't about who can kick more ass. That would be D&D.

See, what makes the other characters non-sidekicks is that they're featured by what's important to them. By your estimation, Frodo wasn't a main character in LotR, because Gandalf was in the story. You can do this with TROS, because the rules center around the SAs.

You're stuck in the "party" mentality. And until you do, you won't "get" TROS. It's not about some group who band together for no particularly good reason for mutual defense against monsters. It's about individuals who are off looking for their own answers to a riddle. And no amount of power in another character can take that away from the individual. You could be playing next to a god, and it wouldn't matter.

Every character will have his time in the spotlight unless the GM isn't doing his job. Which is very, very easy, you just put stuff that relates to the character's SA in front of him. If you find TROS difficult at all, then you're trying to get a plot to happen or are playing dungeon crawls or something. Because coming up with stuff for each character to be cool is as hard as looking at his SAs.

Mike

I see what you are saying now, and you know what? You are right. Not that I was running games D&Dish - I'm better than that. But I WAS stuck in the party mentality thing. Primarily, it seems that if you arent involved in party play, you end up feeling like you are running a bunch of solo games.

With that, I was about to start protesting. But then, I remembered Amber, the Diceless RPG. Anyone ever play that? That epitomizes freedom and solo play within a party environment. I have run several very successful campaigns with it, no problem.

Yet I was stuck in the party mentality with TROS for some reason. I have no idea why; I leaped the paradigm shift with Amber with no difficulty, but didn't make it with TROS until you drew that analogy.

That helped a lot. Thanks.

Amber is a great example. You can't do the party thing because the PCs are often the only competition for the other PCs. In any case, everyone has silly strengths, so the stories have to be about something other than their strengths (shudders trying to envision a game which was only about exploring PC power in Amber).

We're just getting to the point in games with systems that don't use something like "diceless" to get the same effects.

Mike