How did I miss this?

[Zaidaco]

Zaidaco, you do realize that teleporting around the fight really wouldn't convey any special advantage to that demon in combat? It would permit it to attack opponents at various ranges, sure. But that's all.

Oh I realize that. It's mainly for asthetic reasons now. Just think of the horror of running from the room in which you buddy is being torn apart only to find that whatever was doing the tearing is now standing right in front of you. That sort of thing.

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

You're typing too fast, man. Two posts ago, you say you "might be able to have that unstoppable combat powerhouse after all." I tell you why you won't have it. You respond, Oh, that's not what I meant.

Dude, I can only work with what you type, not what you mean. Slow down a little.

Best,
Ron

[Old_Scratch]

Zaidaco, you do realize that teleporting around the fight really wouldn't convey any special advantage to that demon in combat? It would permit it to attack opponents at various ranges, sure. But that's all.

Oh I realize that. It's mainly for asthetic reasons now. Just think of the horror of running from the room in which you buddy is being torn apart only to find that whatever was doing the tearing is now standing right in front of you. That sort of thing.

I can see a sort of concept here... A Demon that lurks about in the dark, the demon that is always, always, always right behind you. Maybe nobody has ever even seen it? Maybe even when summoned, it lurks there behind its summoner who only gets glimpses of it.

Then, when combat occurs, it uses its Teleport (Appear Behind Someone) ability to suddenly emerge from the shadows - I'm sure that should give a Tactics bonus of +1 die for attacking from behind. Its a little power gamey - but in my mind I've got that scene from Aliens where the Alien reaches down and grabs that Colonial Marine from behind and drags them up into the wall.

Some might say your concept is a bit power gamey, but I think it does have potential. What if the thing is always over your shoulders, salivating, and you've got drool constantly dripping on you. Its there with you in the shower, on the bus, and you're fearful of mirrors, that hated glimpse of the thing that lurks behind you. You'd definitely be paranoid after just a short time. Many normal human interactions would be nearly impossible. I think your relationship with your demon could be incredibly difficult - especially with some sort of destiny mechanic: Has Summoned His Own Doom - that demon that you unwittingly summoned is only hanging about because you owe it your soul - and it only intervenes when it is in its own interest - and one day, when you need it, it will rebel, you will die, and it will go back to its own hell bearing your soul to torment forever.

All that suffering for a +1 die bonus in combat? Is it worth it? ;)

--Garett

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

And the +1 die bonus is highly conditional anyway. It's not a standing bonus. I can think about about a hundred situations in which it's not relevant, and quite a few others in which it'd be a once-in-a-scene thing.

Best,
Ron

[Zaidaco]

I feel as though I've offended you in some way Ron, and I hope that isn't the case. But, I've had some time to organize my thoughts about the "unstoppable combat powerhouse" and "maybe still being able to get it". Up till now I haven't really Summoned and Bound a demon whose sole purpose is to fight my battles. In a Sorcerer & Sword campaign we played months ago, I had a few demons that made my Sorcerer into a combat worthy foe, but at that point I was fascinated by object demons, and they were all of that type.

We've now began playing in a modern day Sorcerer setting. I decided that I should be as clear as I could about what the different demon abilities could and could not do. While looking through the forum, I found a reference to certain abilities that I had always assumed had to be activated each and every time they came up in a scene (Armor, Cloak, Fast, Protection, Perception, etc...).  This led me to other questions, Armor vs. Protection, is Special Damage activated like the abilities above or does each attack constitute use, all questions that were answered quickly and well.

But then I started thinking about Travel and specifically about Teleport. How long did it last, how far could you go, that sort of thing. I had convinced myself, and nearly my GM, that a demon with Travel (Teleport) would only need to activate it once at the beginning of the scene, and that it would be able to keep teleporting for short distances until either a number of hours had passed or it had gone the maximum calculated distance. Numbers numbers numbers. Luckily my GM wasn't convinced and had me put the question to the board, which I did, and again good, quick answers.

So here I was, my original vision of the combat powerhouse demon finished. As I first conceived it, the demon would have had to have stats in the 15 to 20+ range with three or four types of Special Damage (both Ranged and not), Armor, Fast, Cloak, several different Protections, and Perception (teleport) with Travel (teleport). I wanted it to be able to combine Fast with Teleport thinking that this would allow the demon to attack and move to the next target every round. I learned that fulfilling Need cured fatigue, and the Uber demon got a little closer to reality. (This is when I started asking the question about teleport and Special Damage). The demon was glorious, and completely broken.

But, I can still see a demon of similar attributes, but with a vastly scaled down amount of power. After all, who really wants to Contact, Summon, Bind and try to control a Power 20+ demon that can be anywhere at any time. It would take a hell of great roll-playing performance; gross amount of drugs and sacrifice, and even if the first two steps were somehow successful, it doesn't take a genius to figure out who would most likely win that Binding roll, not to mention the horrible danger to Humanity the whole process would require.

So my new idea has boiled down to this. An Inconspicuous demon with one type of Special Damage (probably claw and fangs), Armor, Fast, Perception: Heightened Senses, Travel: Jump, Link, and maybe Armor and Fast for the Sorcerer to use as well. The Stamina and Lore around 9, Will and Power around 10. As for Need and Desire, they would probably have something to do with carnage and mayhem. Still a demon I would be very reluctant to try to Summon considering its Power and likely attitude, but I have the idea on the back burner just in case some other Sorcerer thinks of sending something similar against me.

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

Z, don't ever worry about "offending" me. This is the tequila forum - when I tell ya something, it's because that's what I'm saying, not hiding "you're offending me" under something else.

If you really piss me off, I'll let you know. Until then, figure that I'm doing just fine and am very happy with you. Which is, in fact, the case.

Anyway, here are a couple of threads that I think you'll like: Very very powerful demons and how to keep them, Stat scaling in Sorcerer, and My/JL's game ("The Abyss Chronicles"). Do a search on "Veniamin" in this forum for some details about one of the demons I talk about in those threads, hands-down the most effective demon I've ever seen in a Sorcerer game.

There's a lot to think about in those, especially the role of such beings in the game as well as some unexpected points about their "size."

A couple points for now ...

1. I don't know what you mean by describing the larger demon concept as "broken." If you mean that it accorded with the rules but would have been unplayable or unfair to play in some way, then I strongly disagree. I wouldn't mind discussing that at all - but I really do need to know what you mean by the "broken."

Again, this is not a matter of offending me. It's a matter of you describing exactly what you would envision in play and why that would be bad.

At the moment, for instance, I am very puzzled about how you're interpreting Fast and Teleport, and why that would be any kind of problem. But I'm getting ahead of myself. I'll wait on your reply.

2. Now let's look at your li'l fellow:

An Inconspicuous demon with one type of Special Damage (probably claw and fangs), Armor, Fast, Perception: Heightened Senses, Travel: Jump, Link, and maybe Armor and Fast for the Sorcerer to use as well. The Stamina and Lore around 9, Will and Power around 10. As for Need and Desire, they would probably have something to do with carnage and mayhem.

Huh. That's a potato chip demon, compared to some of the nasties at Power 7 or 8 that I'm used to seeing. It'd get shredded in a fight. What you basically have is Wolverine, who, in Sorcerer terms, is a total weenie, with a teeny bit of crossing with Nightcrawler. A standard supervillain but a pretty lightweight demon.

If you really want a combat monster demon, then first things first: put aside anything which directly helps the sorcerer. He can have other demons for that. Also, why bother with Link? People always pick Link because it jazzes them, but really, it doesn't seem to have any place with this demon. He's only teleporting around the room, after all, most of the time.

Second, prioritize getting up again over bouncing damage. Vitality first, Armor as an optional backup. Remember, Armor doesn't do squat against temporary penalties, and demons are terribly vulnerable to Banish or Punish when they are staggering from a recent hit.

Third, remember that Fast works best as a transitive ability (conferred to someone other than the demon); used as a self-ability, it only adds a single die for order-determining purposes only. Not that big a deal. I'll explain how the "extra action" concept is better achieved in a minute.

Similarly, the Senses would only operate as a way to gain some roll-over bonus dice, which although nice, are not the "anti-surprise shield" that they are in so many role-playing games.

You want something that's really terrifying, right? And mysterious, and scary? Easy - get Daze, which in combination with the Inconspicuous passive Cloak, does a great job for getting those "extra actions" you seem to be hungering for. Now and only now can this demon do the "teleport among the opponents, wreaking havoc" that you're looking for. Shadow will help fuck up the opponents' defensive rolls too and set up neat "emerge from shadows" situations as well.

Daze, Shadow, Travel (teleport), Special Damage, and Vitality are the core. Add Armor if you want to, quite possibly Taint if you really want that "sends foes screaming and reeling" effect. At Power 8, this guy now has a pretty good perception roll without any need for more (remember, the ability does not give it extra dice).

Final point: check out my comments about Desire and Need in the threads I've linked to. It strikes me that this demon might do well with a Desire for mayhem, but would do very badly with a similar Need - because it would not fight well when hungry.

Best,
Ron

[Zaidaco]

Instead of "broken" I guess the better term would be repetitive and boring. The demon would have been just a mish-mash of "cool" abilities piled one atop another with only a bit of theme. Sure it would have had huge power, and been able to do a lot of different things, but practical? Effective? Definitely not. Kind of like using a jackhammer to do brain surgery.

Now, my initial idea for combining Fast and Teleport. As I read the description in the Sorcerer book for the Fast ability I saw that it allowed the user to take an extra action each round. My immediate thought was "If the demon was using Fast and it had the ability to Teleport, couldn't the demon then Teleport with it's "extra action" and attack with it's normal action?" I imagined that demon Teleporting and attacking each and every round. One second it's all over Thug #1, the next it's 100 feet away taking the head off of Thug #2, and so on. That's the best way I can explain it.

As for the critique of the demon I figured was a good compromise. Brilliant! Maybe I should summon it as is and name it Potato chip. It never really occurred to me to use the rules on lasting and action damage as a buffer to Banish or Punish a demon. I've also never considered pairing Daze with the passive Cloak of an Inconspicuous demon. In fact, I now realize that I've been limiting my choice of demon abilities to a rather narrow spectrum. Out of all the abilities in the book, I think that I've only actually used Armor, Boost, Cloak, Special Damage, Protection, Travel, Warp, Vitality, and Shadow. That leaves a whole bunch of abilities just sitting there waiting to be chosen. Either because I didn't really understand them, or I just wanted to stick with the abilities I was used to. The best demon I've Bound so far was a little Power 4(+) familiar type Inconspicuous with Flight, Link, and Boost: Lore. I think it had one or two other abilities, but it never told my Sorcerer about those. It was a great little scout, and the four extra dice from the Boost were very helpful when it came to Contacting. Yet the little guy didn't last very long, and it was the familiar's demise that led me to thinking about effective combat demons.

Thanks for the list of threads to look at. I haven't had the chance, but I get some good computer time this weekend so I'll have a lot of reading to do.

[Ron Edwards]

Hiya,

Good thinking all 'round. I see your point about the "broken" stuff now, and you're right - when you read my posts on big demons in the cited threads, I think you'll see a lot of points to agree with.

You've noticed, I'm sure, that the imp demon was probably more fun because it was more fun for the GM to play, and hence had a lot more personality and a lot of little agendas and so forth. I wasn't there for your game, and I don't know that for sure, but little imp demons with three or four abilities are common in Sorcerer games, and people typically really enjoy them in play.

Final point, and a big one! You don't need Fast to have the demon teleport around and whack people upside the head one-two-three. When all is said and done, teleporting is just Travel, and Travel just means "covering distance." Therefore the demon can bamf around the room just as you describe without having to "take an action" for the teleport. I'm not sure where you got the idea it'd have to teleport, hit, teleport, hit, etc.

As I say, to be clear, it's just moving around the room using Travel. I don't care if it's teleporting, running on air, flying, or whatever - it can still move around as its Power would imply and doesn't need to abstain from attacking to do so.

The demon I presented above can do that. Thug 1, Thug 2, Thug 3, hit'em with three successive attacks, one per round. All the teleport does is make it possible for the thugs to be far apart from one another (one on the catwalk, one behind the barricade, one off to the left, e.g.).

So your perceived need for Fast is not necessary. It can already do what you want.

Best,
Ron

[Zaidaco]

I'm not sure where you got the idea it'd have to teleport, hit, teleport, hit, etc.

I'm not sure either. I think at some point I read that a round is long enough to perform one action. It never occured to me that demon abilities do not necessarily conform to this. Mostly I think it had to due with lingering unfamiliarity with the system, despite having owned it since Milwaukee.

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

H'm, I think the "action" term is what's causing a problem.

Since I consider movement to be part of actions in Sorcerer, "I run up and hit him!" is an action, if it seems to everyone to be in the same approximate time-scale of the other actions going on.

"Teleport" = "Run up" in every possible way except that it doesn't have to worry about gravity and most intervening objects. So it can be part of a stated action, not "an action" on its own.

Or to put it another way, "ability use" is not necessarily 1:1 with "action," although in many situations it might be.

Best,
Ron

[Zaidaco]

It all becomes clear now.

Thanks