[Ditv] A couple of rules questions

[Lance D. Allen]

Yeah.. Vincent 'splained this in one of my Actual Play threads.

It's generally just a bad idea to put life, death, injury, etc. in the stakes, because then you're likely to catch-22 yourself into failure.

[WiredNavi]

I had this same problem working out some narration-rights stuff for my own project.  My solution was to require that the stakes for any conflict be a single clause.  "Can I make him repent his ways" is fine, as is "Can I prevent blood being spilled", but "Can I make him repent his ways by/while preventing blood being spilled" is too much.

[Tobias]

Rules questions yay.

In no particular order:

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For initiations, the GM rolls 4d6 4d10 and has no access to any other dice ever. Often, this means that if the Dog escalates, the Dog wins. Some initiatory conflicts, the Dog will escalate to win; some, never. It's all good.

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Ok. Clear.

I raise: "get off my property" with a 17. You take the blow. Your character has to get off my property. And stay off, or whatever the implication of the raise was. You don't get to take the blow without taking the blow!

Then you get to raise or give. If you can't come up with a good raise - because, for instance, you're now far away from the action - you have to give.

But don't forget that you can play time tricks! "See: dang it, I get off his land. Raise: the next day, I see him in town..."

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So, basically, if the verbal thing's an order, you must follow the order. (In my case, I thought "well, it's an order and an insult, so I'll take the insult as a blow (admitting to the 'pup' insult)"). That works.

Time tricks or 'but you're coming with me' raise - excellent.

How is it determined - for this opening conflict - that the conflict doesn't quickly escalate to shooting - with Zeb getting hit by a big 17? causing big fallout?

I don't understand this question. If Zeb shoots the guy, or if he shoots Zeb, it escalates to shooting.

Unclear phrasing on my part. In combination with the other posts in the thread, it's clear.

"Get off my land," if you take the blow, inflicts d4 fallout dice no matter what.

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If the horsebeater is Faithful, ceremony doesn't work on him, unless it's his soul beating the horse. (I'm pretty sure it's not his soul, but his body, his arm, and his whip.)

Ceremony inflicts d4 fallout, unless you're inflicting it on a demon, a sorcerer, a possessed, or a soul.

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Those seem like maybe not the answers you were expecting! Let me know.

-Vincent

Together with the rest, it's all clear to me. Funny how you've got to experience a (potential) problem to appreciate it's nature and solution (since similar things have been asked and answered).

Tx!

Oh, and even the test rocked - even if it was just solo-test play. Looking forward to taking Dogs out for a spin!

[cdr]

I like the clarification that stakes shouldn't be hedged, so "Do you get him to repent?" is fine, but "Do you get him to repent without spilling blood?" is not. Specify outcomes, not methods: very helpful!

Those seem like maybe not the answers you were expecting!

I am a bit startled to find out "Taking the blow" when someone orders you to do something means following the order.  ("Get off my land!"  "OK.")  We were playing it as just having the words affect you, the same way as having a punch land on you in a fight hurts, but it doesn't get to knock you out of the fight. Sounds like we were wrong.  It sure would have made a big difference when Sister Philomena was lying half-under her horse all messed up and Raised 20 to tell Brother Jabez "Kiss me and put a bullet in my head."

"Don't make a raise that's the same as the stakes"

It sounds right that you can't make a raise that would win the stakes automatically, but then it also seems wierd sometimes. If the stakes are "Do we catch the guy" and there's a bit of chasing and the Dogs get close and call out "Surrender!" and he Takes the Blow (because he doesn't have the dice to dodge or block, but doesn't want to Give), he has to surrender? But that's the stakes! So then it's saying that we can't call out asking him to surrender if what we want is to catch him? Doesn't that seem kinda funny?

Or does that sort of dilemma  mean the stakes somehow weren't set right?

--Carl Rigney

[cdr]

If the horsebeater is Faithful, ceremony doesn't work on him,  unless it's his soul beating the horse. (I'm pretty sure it's not his soul, but his body, his arm, and his whip.)

Ceremony inflicts d4 fallout, unless you're inflicting it on a  demon, a sorcerer, a possessed, or a soul.

Those seem like maybe not the answers you were expecting! Let me know.

Oh! That's too bad. We were thinking Ceremony was the Dog speaking directly to the Faithful's soul, in words he'd ignore at his peril.  If Ceremony is only talking to the soul, not the Faithful it's attached to, that's not as handy, but perhaps that's as should be.

I was really liking how three Dogs together (Three in Authority, d8 fallout) were much scarier to take fallout from than one or two, if they chose to assert that.  (Which they might not, if they don't want to risk folks dying from having their souls slapped around.)

So as far as souls go, its just for things like attaching souls back into bodies when healing, or sending ghosts on their way, or disentangling twins that have had their souls mixed up, that kind of thing?  That's cool too.  Plus it means sorcerers and possessed are more vulnerable than ordinary Faithful, which does feel right.

Thanks for the clarification!

--Carl Rigney

[lumpley]

Oh and hey, always always always follow your group's lead, especially with regard to ceremony, the supernatural, and what's a legit raise or see. Carl, especially - don't sweat it unless it's not going well. The conversation I'll have with someone who's learning the rules will be necessarily different from the conversation I'd have with someone who's already playing. Particularly: Tobias doesn't have a group's lead to follow yet.

-Vincent

[Tobias]

All too true! And as long as you're having fun, you're doing it right, AFAIC.

[Lxndr]

He can take the blow, stop and surrender... fall to his knees, give up, etc.  The dogs get closer to catching him... and then he raises, and wow, the surrender was just a fakeout!

I'd consider that a valid raise.  Is there a reason why it shouldn't be?

[Lance D. Allen]

A fakeout, or.. something happens. Demons possess him, or he just plain changes his mind.. Or he surrenders by pulling his gun, and putting it in his own mouth.

There's a lot of things you can do to keep the conflict going when you have to take the blow.