Myth-flow - a basic mechanic for Yggdrasil

[Christoffer Lernö]

I'm working on something. Unfortunately it's going pretty slowly, so I'm  presenting it here and hope that maybe someone has a suggestion.

Introduction (Skip this part if you want)
It's all about the Myth. Or Mythpower. Or Legend. Or Wyrd. Any way you  want to name it.

There is magic in Ygg, and I envision it as a living thing. Heroes gain  power beyond the ken of the common people. Places too gain this magic,  and items as well. I called it Myth, because it's the best way to  measure it.

It's about "how mythic is this place?", "how far from the mundane is this hero's abilities?"

Peregrine's Wayfarer's Song is a good example of a world where the magic  is contagious. Items gain magic by association, places too.

However, like many games these things happen pre-play. It is established  that the forest is the Ghost Woods because of the evil that happened  there. Or the Sword is the Thunderbolt Tiger.

But the ghost woods were not always that, and once upon a time the  Thunderbolt Tiger was only a magical sword.

I wish to have a mechanic to make those magics appear throughout the  game continously, smoothly. The Heroes' great victories touch the very  Myth of the Land itself. As this happens they themselves change into  legends.

I've said before that I imagine Yggdrasil falling in-between Wayfarer's  Song and Torchbearer. In Torchbearer the myths are like clay in the  hands of the characters, in Wayfarer's Song they are said to change but  there are no mechanics to support it.

I draw inspiration to this partly from some threads we've had for Ygg.  One stands out, namely the "protagonizing setting" idea Walt Freitag  suggested. With the myth I'm thinking of then this is a way to let  places evolve powers of their own. It naturally goes hand in hand with  that idea.

I had various threads on Mythpower as well, describing effects like  magical items trying to find worthy carriers of their power (Wayfarer's  Song has a great take on what happens if you have items that are too  powerful for you).

(If you skipped the part above then start reading here, it's about Mythpower)
So what's the problem? Well I tried to formalize this into a system somehow and that turned out to be a pretty difficult task. In fact I don't really know where to begin.

There are a few questions to be asked straight off the bat:

1 Powers, how are they gained (player, GM, rules - what decides?)
2 How do can one handle gradual increase in power?
3 What other effects should Myth potentially have?

#3 is the easiest*

Let's look at 1) first.

"How are powers gained"
Now let me give an example of what I mean.

"The Hero Dragon Eye is defeats the Seven Legged Demon King and gains myth, enough for a new power."

Who would decide on that power?

* If the GM chooses the power then we have to rely on the GM to produce engaging magical powers.

* If the rules creates powers we need to be able to find out what killing such a demon would make for a suitable power. This might involve heavy rule machinery.

* And if the player choses it... Well here we're doing additional character creation aren't we. So it's directorial mechanics. Is this ok in an outwardly sim game?

Aside from that - how do we motivate a power? Is it something latent or is it gained by being affected by magic? Does the magic awaken powers or are they new? This is something I need to answer, but the problem is that they all are possible as far as the idea of Myth goes.

If I wasn't constricted by sim mechanics, I'd simply say that when a character has enough Myth to gain a power, the GM has to create a scene were he/she gets this "power up". Imagine Anime or HK movies where they find a secret scroll of MA secrets or whatever. But that doesn't quite work within the sim construct does it?

I personally would like the powers both to be constructed as reasonable, varied and in harmony with the character concept. In fact I was entertaining an idea that you could write up from the start what powers your character would get as he/she increased in myth (to circumvent the clash with sim when you do director stance in the middle of a game)

Whatever the rules they ought to be equally usable with items or places (answering the the question how places and items change as things happen to them).

As an example of something I DON'T want to see, would be that a character uses a sword to kill a demon and promptly declares that the sword now has the power to shoot fireballs - with no connection to the demon.
On the other hand - having the sword cursed by the demon blood, or constantly dripping poison, or gaining a dark, light absorbing colour are all well and nice.

However, if players and/or GM are supposed to come up with such effects they need some sort of mechanic to guide them right.

Well any thoughts on how to do this smooth creation of myth would be helpful.

So let's stop there for a minute. 2) and 3) are not at all as problematic as the first one. Let's focus on problem 1 for a while.

Any thoughts?


/Christoffer

*Here's a list of rather uninspiring mechanical effects:

a. Automatically gain higher degree of success
b. Scale efficiency in effects and tests
c. Limit buyable powers
d. Work as "fuel" for powers
e. Regulate number of "Fate Points"
f. Extra dice for tests
g. Work as cap for dice and stats
[/list:u]
As of now only one of these are used: Magic effectively scales against the myth of the character. The higher the Myth of a character, the more powerful a spell has to be to affect him/her.

However, these are only about fiddling with the mechanics. The effect of Magical Powers gained by Myth is the imporant one.
[/size]

[RobMuadib]

I'm working on something. Unfortunately it's going pretty slowly, so I'm  presenting it here and hope that maybe someone has a suggestion.

If I wasn't constricted by sim mechanics, I'd simply say that when a character has enough Myth to gain a power, the GM has to create a scene were he/she gets this "power up". Imagine Anime or HK movies where they find a secret scroll of MA secrets or whatever. But that doesn't quite work within the sim construct does it?

Christoffer

Hmm, you have some strange fixation about the idea of Sim limiting how things which are 100% fanciful working. Ok, some Sim is about faithfulness to in-game casualty and fidelity to realism, exploring the 5 elements. Other sim is just focused on exploring the 5 elements, and getting to the action of that exploring, so what if some details are fudged over getting there, it's the exploration/action of interest that you are shooting for.

So my question is, what in-game casuality or realism does what you suggested conflict with? That is, WTF, it's magic, it works however you say it works. In these instances, the only real key is consistency in application, and plausibility in introduction. Being that magic works however you define it to work in a game, I don't see what your hang up is.  Why Couldn't a Hero who somehow transcends some Mythic become entangled by mythical ley lines of force transforming him and embuing him with some new powers?

And to adress another point you mention, there is nothing wrong at all about Directorial control in sim focused play. What matters more is what you use to that control to do. In my estimation using it to abrogate the rules system and dictate outcomes by fiat is counter-productive. i.e, why have rules if you are going to ignore them.

As for the rules "creating" a power, they may not create it, but they are most likely going to have to represent it how works in the game, which is generally tied into representing it via system. So you need some machinery in place, if not to "create" them, then certainly to define them.

To get back to your Directorial control comment. Directorial control is not anathema to Sim, or rather, to "Objective" Sim. That is Sim play that is focused on getting things that you are interested in exploring to occur. Now Subjective Sim, where the evolution of the game reality, and the casualty of in-game agents is more important, that is when dealing with things exclusively within their own context, it can be anathema too.
At the same time, once everyone is on the starting line, so to speak, in Objective Sim, then it is time to pay attention to the details and "reality" of what's going on, often meaning no abrogration of system. (at least that is my emerging take on it.)

Finally, to address your #1 question, I would say there is nothing wrong with a player proposing an idea for their Mythic Ability, just have the GM veto it if it doesn't meet the Related to the subject/situation criteria, with guidelines for him to negotiate with the player on a mutually agreeable power. etc.

HTH
(if not, blame it on lack of sleep:) )

[Emily Care]

Hi Chris,

Very evocative concept. I like the idea of magic being acquired due to events/associations.  This creates an situation where character actions affect the setting and objects (and people?) of the world, allowing the player's choices to reverberate throughout the world.  Cool.

I personally would like the powers both to be constructed as reasonable, varied and in harmony with the character concept. In fact I was entertaining an idea that you could write up from the start what powers your character would get as he/she increased in myth (to circumvent the clash with sim when you do director stance in the middle of a game)

Another aspect of sim play is that the plots often arise from in-world elements and interactions.  This is an argument for allowing the associations to be determined in play rather than at the start.  An object could have an aspect: "Protection", "Vengeance", "Starlight", to which all magic that it acquired could have to be related to.

Whatever the rules they ought to be equally usable with items or places (answering the the question how places and items change as things happen to them).

As an example of something I DON'T want to see, would be that a character uses a sword to kill a demon and promptly declares that the sword now has the power to shoot fireballs - with no connection to the demon.
On the other hand - having the sword cursed by the demon blood, or constantly dripping poison, or gaining a dark, light absorbing colour are all well and nice.

A simple suggestion is to assign aspects to things that will be overcome (obstacles), that can be incorporated into the powers of a newly magical object or place.   Obstacle char gen could include a list of descriptors and powers that can be communicated. This could work equally well for places and objects.  Take your demon:


Demon
Skin color fuligin (dark, light absorbing)
Talon-like claws, dripping poison

You are having a gm, right? The gm could assign the descriptors to the demons etc. Then the player could choose one or two among them to have grow or spontaneously appear on the place or object.  This allows the gm to limit the powers (ie if you don't want your players to have the ability to throw fire-balls, then don't give it to them as an option), yet allows the players to retain choice and also use their own imagination as far as how it actually manifests.

*Here's a list of rather uninspiring mechanical effects:

a. Automatically gain higher degree of success
b. Scale efficiency in effects and tests
c. Limit buyable powers
d. Work as "fuel" for powers
e. Regulate number of "Fate Points"
f. Extra dice for tests
g. Work as cap for dice and stats
[/list:u]
As of now only one of these are used: Magic effectively scales against the myth of the character. The higher the Myth of a character, the more powerful a spell has to be to affect him/her.

These all sound good. The mechanical effect itself may be fairly straightforward, but if the color associated with it is compelling, that won't matter.

Hope that's useful!

--Emily Care

edited for clarity

[Christoffer Lernö]

Thanks Rob and Emily.

I need to be shaken from my insane mutterings about how things are impossible in Sim and you do it efficiently.

Emily: Your idea with obstacle chargen echoes the way I wanted to write the powers of monsters and places... And since these powers are myth-powers too... - well I see it possibly floating together perfectly if I can somehow enlighten myself on how to actually implement it in a way that fits within my system. Anyway, great suggestion.

Rob: Your thoughts on Directorial mechanics were very helpful. I sense things converging. I'll see if I can't take this and build it together on my own now. Stay tuned. (Considering my pace it will probably take a month or so though :) )

[Christoffer Lernö]

I've done some more thinking and found a satisfactory vessel for the mythic powers in my magic system.

The short take on my magic is that you treat it with a simple power rating, a name and a description of how it works. All the other things kind of work by themselves. To avoid getting into details, imagine something simple in vein of the Hero Wars' traits.

Now keeping in the Sim vein (you guessed I couldn't completely free myself from it, right?) there should be some rules/guidelines how the abilities myth-powers appear.

I was thinking something like this...

The effects of myth can be divided into boost and taints. Boosts are powers the player can choose to add to the character (more about that later) whereas taints are system dictated effects from prolonged exposure to mythic influences.

In reading this, try to think of myth as "magic+any other type of metaphysical influence such as weird, or good/evil".
Oh, and "the source" refers to the thing is what is affecting things to produce mythic effects in other persons/objects/places/monsters

Boosts
You'll be collecting some sort of "legend points". These can be used to pay for "boosts". A "boost" is a power aquired through the myth it has been in contact with. For example when the Thunderbolt Tiger has enough legend it can manifest its first powers. These powers are drawn from the foes it has slain - there always has to be an association.

There are two ways of doing a boost: slow or immediate.

For a slow boost you simply start power at minimal efficiency (let's say "rating 1"). Then you slowly increase this rating step by step to a usable level and above (using a suitable rating, a power would be considered usable at rating 10 or so). You can only increase such a power 1 point at a time, once every time you gain additional "legend".

For an immediate boost you pay for the full power (at whatever rating you want) straight away. You need to have enough "legend" to pay for the boost or it won't happen. Two disadvantages straight away: you can't improve this ability and you get taints from it (see below).


Taints
Unlike boosts you don't "need" legend points for taints. Instead you simply get these "abilities" as you are in contact with the source of the myth. A taint puts the target under the influence of the source in some way, although the particular external expression of the taint depends of the powers of the source. Some of these taint can actually work like boosts but they occur at a very considerable price.

There are slow and immediate taints just like boosts.

Just like slow boosts the slow taints tick up as you are in contact with the tainting source.

Immediate taints on the other hand, only arise when someone does an immediate boost. If the source of the boost is a tainting source, then there will be an immediate taint as strong as the boost.

An example:
The Hero Dragoneye is defeats the Seven Legged Demon King and gains legend points - enough with his saved-up points to create an immediate boost. Drenched in the Demon King's blood he declares that this blood makes him invulnerable from any man-made weapon and pays up points for that, putting the power at rating 20. The GM thinks this is reasonable because the Demon King himself was invulnerable to human weapons.

However since this was an immediate boost Dragoneye won't ever be able to improve this ability beyond 20 (this rating determines how efficient it is and how easy it is overcome by spells and other myth powers). Dragoneye also gets "immediate taint". The GM decides something appropriate like "overcome by demonic rage", "dragon scaly skin" or something.

If Dragoneye had declared the same as a slow boost them the ability would have been at a (mostly unusable) rating of 1 but he would have been unaffected by the taint.

The blood of the Demon King seeps into the ground, slowly slowly polluting the ground with its essence.

When Dragoneye returns a year later those woods is a dark an horrifying place, haunted by the spirit of the Demon King. During this time  the taint has given the woods terrible tainted powers. The woods are permeated with an evil force (Evil sentient woods 15) that confuses travellers (Pathless 20) and leads them to into the jaws of the animals that have been distorted by the powers of the Demon King.
The animals themselves have powers in a similar manner, again derived from taint. Maybe "Demonic shape 20".

As Dragoneye fights these beasts the influence of the woods start working on him. The lure is made all the much stronger because of the taint from the demon blood. It is not long until he sucumbs to the will of the Demon King...

Any impressions? (I know I know, vague question) Does it seem like a step in the right direction?

Any other system which deals with the same problem (preferably something downloadable since I can't get printed stuff here) or any past discussion?

[Christoffer Lernö]

Hmm.. I keep commenting myself in this thread. Sorry about that and...

Well after doing some more thinking on the subject, the approach above is actually only adding to the trouble of keeping the world mythic. But more on that later. Sorry about wasting your time. I'll go away now. Bye bye

(yeah I'm sounding confused, but then again it's 2:07 a.m. here)

[Emily Care]

Hi Chris,

Sounds like you need some sleep. :) The above approach sounded fine.  I haven't responded because I wanted to take a look at the mechanics you're using for Ygg.  The description of the change in the woods sounded great. I also liked the connection between the changed hero and the tainted wood.  What about it is creating problems for you?

Don't give up. :) It seems like you are going in a good direction. Good luck!

--Emily Care

[Demonspahn]

Hi Christoffer,

I do have one knee jerk question.  Why is it an immediate taint automatic after an immediate boost from mythic sources?  

Taking a page from myth, when Sigurd killed Fafnir and then drank his blood/ate his heart, he got a boost, but I don't recall mention of a taint.

Is there any game reason why one should relate to the other?

Pete

[Emily Care]

Taking a page from myth, when Sigurd killed Fafnir and then drank his blood/ate his heart, he got a boost, but I don't recall mention of a taint.

I thought that he got an impervious and scaly skin like a dragon, with but one weak spot where a leaf fell on his back. Am I thinking of another myth?

--Emily Care

edited in:
One version of the myth goes:

"The blood of the dragon will not burn you as Regin has said. When Fafnir is dead, strip naked and bathe in his blood. Wherever it touches you, you will be invulnerable; no weapon will harm you afterwards.' And with that Odin vanished. "

and then

"As the waterfall of blood ran down Sigurd stripped off his clothing letting the blood drench him from head to toe; only one tiny part of his body remained dry and that was where a spring of heather, dislodged by Fafnir from the rocks, had drifted down and stuck between Sigurd's bare shoulders. "

[Demonspahn]

:) You're right Emily.  It was me who was mixing my myths.  It was in Hrolf Kraki's Saga that Bodhvar Bjarki killed a dragon/troll and made Hott/Hjalti eat its heart and drink its blood to gain strength.  

But in both cases, there was an immediate boost without mention of a taint.

Pete

[Shreyas Sampat]

I think a key point here is that Chris mentions "if the sourse of the boost is a tainting source"... This indicates to me that there are sources that are non-tainting.

There goes your Sigurd problem: Fafnir's death was a taintless source.

What I rather worry about is your distinction between slow and immediate: Is this really necessary?  I feel as if you could model it in some other way, that created the distinction as a result of interacting processes, rather than by fiat.  (Possibility: If at any point you put multiple points of ...stuff... into a power, for the same amount of subsequent opportunities, you can't expand this power... or something like that.)