levelling down

[Damocles]

A while ago, I was trying to come up with an original approach to rpgs by looking at the standard things you find in most rpgs and... fiddling with them, put them on their head, variate their importance, whatever.
I came up with some ideas, but one concept kind of struck out because it seemed completely unworkable at first, but I started liking it more and more.
So I guess it's time for a reality check.
The basic ideas was to have a game where players start out extremely powerful and get progressively weaker. The one genre this fits is the supernatural critter trying to become human. (And by "supernatural critter" I mean "vampire with his own tv show", but it could really be any kind of monster or just an extremely powerful being of any kind who wants to learn some vaguely defined lesson by becoming human. That's not as cool, and you lose the instation motivation for doing good deeds so let's stick with the monsters.) Now at first glance it seemd kind of unappealing, but there is an upside. For one thing, you do get to start out with all the nifty powers you have to wait and wait for in other rpgs. Okay, granted, you lose them instead, but at least you're guarantued some time on the stage where you can use nifty powers. (The idea is that, in the very first stage you're actually completely immortal and can't be killed by any means whatsoever.)
In practical terms, the whole becoming human thing allows to introduce rules for wounds, exhaustion, sicknesses etc. later on which means the game gets gradually more complex.
Finally, there is just a certain, I don't know, badass defiant going-against-all-odds vibe about the idea.
So what say you?

[Jared A. Sorensen]

Coolio.

Now write up a 5 page or less game and let us at it!

[Zak Arntson]

Wow!  Cool!  There's some good precedent for this in Asian mythology.  In fact, the most current issue of http://www.illuminatedlantern.com">Illuminated Lantern talks about Snake Women and their myths in China, India and elsewhere.

In many cases, it looks like the immortal Snake Woman falls in love with a mortal man and strives to become a mortal. Or something like that.

I think your Premise would make a great game, especially if the immortal had a strong, personal reason to go mortal (Love, I would imagine most cases would be).

Can't wait to see how you handle it!

[JSDiamond]

I'm writing a game where the premise is that you are a god of a doomed pantheon trying to become mortal so that you won't have to 'die' when the pantheon dies (as it will  from when the game begins to some time when the GM decides).

It is treated as a worhty goal (becoming mortal) and far more deeply than the old 'to learn humility' bit.  It's about finally truly being alive.  About having your life have value because of its finiteness.  And the ability to truly be loved and remembered, and therefor truly immortal.
Because, no matter how great a god you are (were) you will be replaced by a new one and you will be 99% forgotten. You know this.  And no fantasy-realm mortals ever go around saying "Sure, this Yir'Gimtoth is powerful and good and all that, but don't you sometimes miss 'ol Jarganph-Grognog?  (sigh) Man, none of these NEW gods could throw a Flaming Wheat-bail Harvest Dance like ol Grogs!"

Anyway.    

The point is to lose your powers slowly over time, fending off other gods who want to kill you (before the end) while slowly dismantling your godhood (followers, priests, churches, etc.)  But you can't just 'throw' the match so to speak, because failure may seem like a test to your followers, who will promptly go out and 'prove' the strength of their faith.

It's a tightrope walk between maintaining your godly status among your peers while sliding under their radar to become mortal (and therefor disappear into the throng of mortals).

Blah.

J
 

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

The Whispering Vault is the only RPG I can think of, off the top of my head, in which one may spend experience points to make the character weaker, for no traded-off benefit. The ultimate outcome of this type of development is for the character to "transcend" Stalker status and leave play.

Alternately, the same points may be spent to get tougher in the usual RPG way.

The idea proposed in this thread, in which all the characters are engaged in this process, seems very strong. I imagine, though, that as they become human, OTHER, perhaps metagame aspects of the characters would increase. Or not?

Best,
Ron

[Laurel]

Its an intruiging idea.  Of course, I don't think that "avoiding oblivion" as the ultimate approach is really the right approach: after all, you are a god... becoming human buys you what? Another hundred years tops all of it filled with pain, suffering and the sensation of defecation?  Would a ~god~ really consider that a justification for giving up some divine partying and a big blow out?

But what if say you were a god, and you were gradually becoming less powerful- and you didn't know why?

Suddenly its a whole new ball game.  Some gods look for scapegoats... others go insane... while others do in fact embrace their new weaknesses and become heroes to humanity in their waning years.  

Also, by leaving the reason -why- the gods are losing their powers as The Great Unknown, you are really empowering GMs to experiment with the narrative.  

The core idea that you've suggested is very appealing. I hope you decide to go with it and show us more.  

[Matt Gwinn]

I think you guys are approaching this from the wrong angle.  Why do characters have to have supernatural powers taken away from them?  There are far more important things.  I think the idea would work perfectly well (and more resonably) by having players play great heroes or famous people that have gone past their prime, like MC Hammer or Macbeth.  I think it would be very interesting to experience the life of someone who had everything and now has to watch it slowly slip away from him.  And you could do it with any setting.  Imagine being a billionaire that has to watch his multinational business crumble before his eyes for one reason or another.  I think it's great.

I think a cool mechanic for it would be to have a stopwatch and set it for a specific time during character creation and then let it count down as you play.  When the time runs out the character must retire.  The object of the game would be to try and maintain as much of your fame, power or what have you before time runs out.

[Zak Arntson]

Laurel said:
Its an intruiging idea. Of course, I don't think that "avoiding oblivion" as the ultimate approach is really the right approach: after all, you are a god... becoming human buys you what?

Maybe you can enter the Wheel of Reincarnation instead of disappearing into oblivion? Perhaps a mortal soul is the only thing that can eventually become divine (giving you another chance for godhood).

I love this idea of "leveling-down." Damocles, I really want to see you attack this. And if you don't, I'm going to attack it with mucho Asian folklore.

[Ron Edwards]

Zak's got the right idea. This whole idea begs for a "becoming mortal for love" Premise or anything similar. I even kind of like the idea that you don't gain ANYTHING in game terms by doing so. You really are getting "weaker."

Best,
Ron

[Mithras]

Having wanted to write a proper homage to the Greek myths for a long time, I feel that this mechanic evokes that feeling of tragedy and loss that these myths expound. The hero is in his prime, young, wealthy, powerful, successful ... it's all downhill from there with death and a life of misery in the Underworld to wait for.

Many heroes ended up with either a) a glorious death, b) and inglorious death, or c) fading into unheroic forgettable obscurity (Jason springs to mind there, and Odysseus?).

So the goal is to die young and glorious fighting a worthy foe, rather than stay alive at all costs and end up with nothing.

[Matt Machell]

On 2001-11-09 19:27, JSDiamond wrote:
I'm writing a game where the premise is that you are a god of a doomed pantheon trying to become mortal so that you won't have to 'die' when the pantheon dies (as it will  from when the game begins to some time when the GM decides).

This probably counts as blatant self promotion, but hey. Take a look at Lost Gods, which has a similar concept of fading deities.

Matt

[Damocles]

Thanks everyone for the replies. Most encouraging. I wrote a longish reply, but the computer ate it and I really don't feel like retyping everything. For now, I'll just say I think I'll keep working on this. Working title: Descent.
Lots of stuff still up in the air, but it's starting to take form. Nasty idea of the moment: Characters lose their immortality at the beginning of the transformation process, only gain a human soul (i.e. access to an afterlife) at the end of it.

More to follow, hopefully.