[Martial-Arts-Horror-Game] Possible 'Magic' System.

[Uccisore]

One thing you can do to help slow the pace of advancement is to limit the number of checks a player can get over time. For example, you could limit it to one per scene, or something like that. It doesn't matter how much they use the magic in a single scene, they'll only get one check.

That's actually the way it works with skills other than magic. I don't want players to feel like if they've used it once today, they may as well use it 100 times, though, that's why I'm doing it different for magic.

[TonyLB]

Well then, I recommend that you make a system that represents "Not Going Bad" as more than just the absence of going bad.  That way, players have a choice between two things they can actively do with the rules, as opposed to one thing they can either do, or not.

[Uccisore]

Well then, I recommend that you make a system that represents "Not Going Bad" as more than just the absence of going bad.

You're right about that. I'll have to think on it. Setting things up so that the players can either be the normal guy, or the Bad Guy isn't totally what I want, either.

[Brendan]

Now, can they refuse the favor and choose to be sick forever, or is that when Sammy the Avatar shows up?

I was thinking that if they refuse the favor, they have to swear off magic forever or die--like a junkie's one last chance to turn around, except they never really get any healthier.  If they end up in a situation where using magic means the difference between life or death anyway, the Great Being pops up conveniently and offers one last chance at the Vitality in exchange for a debt.  If they don't, or if they refuse a second time, along comes Sammy.

The idea that the PC's are being offered something for doing the favor gives me the impression that it's optional.

Well, to a certain point, it really should be--to the players, at least.  They need to have some agency in determining what their characters take on; most players like side quests that star them anyway, so the chance is pretty high that they'll do it, but they should always have the option to do the right thing.

A thought--does your system feature anything like a Willpower attribute?  If so, maybe trying to turn down the favor requires a check, and accepting it (or failing the check) means your Willpower decreases.

[Uccisore]

I was thinking that if they refuse the favor, they have to swear off magic forever or die--like a junkie's one last chance to turn around, except they never really get any healthier.

   I think I know a way to smear all this together and have it work.  Suppose a mage refuses a favor. What if that gives the Great Being liscence to screw with their lives, at a level determined by the level of the mages skill?
      For example, you just meddled with magic a little tiny bit, decided you didn't want to skin the neighbor's cat, and that's that. So maybe for the rest of your life (or until you skin the cat) you have occaisional nightmares where the Great Being taunts you. And of course, your magic abilities are stripped from you.
    Conversely, let's say your a very skilled wizard who has been using magic to get ahead in life for years, but you just flat out refuse to dynamite the Brooklyn Bridge. In that case, every time you look in the mirror you see an image of the Great Being mocking you, your constantly sick, and the GB is periodically sending his gooey minions to try to kill you and people you care about. How the wizard is screwed with could even vary depending on the nature and personality of the GB, which would make the relationship more interesting.  Soulicker likes to drive people to suicide, Gorlob the Butcher likes to take fingers and toes.  
Worse yet, if the GB sends some other guy to dynamite the Brooklyn Bridge, you don't have the option anymore- you have to atone by doing some other thing the GB comes up with, which will no doubt be even worse because now he's ticked off.
     I think this preserves player agency- sure, it makes their choices very difficult at times, but that's just what an RPG is supposed to do. It also gives that 'way out' that you're talking about, while making it harder and harder for the committed mage to change his ways.  And don't forget, the character always has the option to kill the cat, and then never again use magic, in which case they are more or less in the clear. Sure, the GB can call in other debts to try to 'persuade' you, but those debts are 'spiritual currency', and the GB's only way of acting in the world, so how much they spend on you will depend, again, on how much of a wizard you were (and thus, how close you were to becoming lunch).

[Ben Lehman]

I've been working on a similar magic system for a long time, myself.  In end the end, it morphed into http://www.livejournal.com/users/benlehman/50850.html#cutid1">this, but I had a lot of the same contractual breaking elements that you had, as well.

I think that an important trick is you need to let player characters recover from the screw in some way, unless it is death.  Yes, the Great Power has them by the short and curlies, but there are still things that can be done, tricks that can be pulled, ways to weasel around things.  These have a terrible cost (really, the power has a cost, it is just only now being paid) and of course Things Will Never Be The Same but I do think it is more appealing than "you're dead" or "you're character is totally unplayably weakened now, hahah."

Of course, it all depends what you see the character life cycle as.  If you're going for something like CoC, this might be meaningless.

yrs--
--Ben

[Doug Ruff]

Firstly, I like this a lot - I particularly like the way that the system fits in with the overall premise for the game.

However, I'm not sure about the option for characters to be "tricked" into learning magic. The overall set-up strikes me as being very much on the level of a pact - and as such, there has to be a level of "informed choice" in the character's decision to learn their magic. Even if they aren't fully aware of the consequences of their choice, they should be aware that they are gaining something, and giving something away in return.

One way of dealing with this is at chargen - for example, in Sorcerer the characters all start with their powers, and one of the most interesting parts of chargen (IMHO) is deciding why they chose to summon demons.

However, I get the impression from this that you are looking for something different:

One thing I need to clear up a bit. Over all, the players are going to be non-magical or barely-magical people combating Acolytes and Warlocks, and the horrible things the Great Beings make them do.

This sounds to me that the decision whether or not to become an Acolyte is going to be a significant Difficult Choice to be explored within the gameplay. However, for this to work, it has to be a choice. And you have to drive it hard.

In a way, this is Sorcerer in reverse: one of the key Premises for the game, IMHO, is "what will you sacrifice in order to avoid taking on great powers?"

The trick is in gauging the relative power levels of the protagonists - the players should be at a significant disadvantage if they do not learn magic. They should have to face being beat up, having their loved ones put at risk, being hunted, losing ground in the war etc. - but not at such a disadvantage that they have to "convert or die".

(This works well if you adopt some "kung fu" themes for the game - it's very common for a superior combatant to humiliate their opponent instead of killing them.)

In other words, you can offer the players one of two paths, and be up front about it: "You can refuse the offer of magic, fight a long and bitter struggle with a small hope of success, but you get to keep your soul intact. Or you can can take the power, crush you enemies... and face the consequences later."

Hope this is useful, and I'm looking forward to seeing more about this.

Regards,

Doug

[Uccisore]

I think that an important trick is you need to let player characters recover from the screw in some way, unless it is death. Yes, the Great Power has them by the short and curlies, but there are still things that can be done, tricks that can be pulled, ways to weasel around things.

The major weaseling to be done is that players only pay a price every X number of times they use magic, and they get to know how many times that is.  So, suppose you just killed your cat for your GB. You now have 6 times you can use magic without any consequence at all. That 7th time, and you're screwed. So, if a character was thinking rationally, they're really safe...but of course, a typical PC is going to burn through those right up until number 5 or so, and then things get hairy.

Even if they aren't fully aware of the consequences of their choice, they should be aware that they are gaining something, and giving something away in return.

You're completely right about that...if debt and contracts are part of the powr of magic, then anyone who jumps in needs be at least a little informed of what they're getting into.

In other words, you can offer the players one of two paths, and be up front about it: "You can refuse the offer of magic, fight a long and bitter struggle with a small hope of success, but you get to keep your soul intact. Or you can can take the power, crush you enemies... and face the consequences later."

I think that's the way it will work out.  For characters 'in the life' (those who know about the Warlocks and are doing something about it), magic will be like a gun laying on the floor in a knife fight- always waiting right there for someone to pick it up.

I think It's about time I started another thread, which will be the one to describe how Martial Arts (or I should say, hand-to-hand combat) fits into this picture.

[Brendan]

Uccisore, I think the "screwing with your life" mechanic you proposed is great.  The more you use magic, the more spiritually tied to the GB you become...  and just when you think you're out, they pull you back in!

The "gun in a knife fight" analogy is good too.  Reminds me of my favorite Sean Connery line in The Untouchables.