[Martial-Arts-Horror-Game] Possible 'Magic' System.

[Uccisore]

Yeah, so my game doesn't have a name yet. That will probably be the very last thing I do.  This is the same game as the one described in my Mechanics/Setting Question thread down the page aways.
     
    I am envisioning a debt-based magic system involving Great Beings, call them gods or demons or what-have-you.  The basic notion is this: When a character first starts using magic, they get a single thing they can do, and a Level 1 skill named after the Being they petition for their magic.
    Each time they perform one of the magic feats they know, they earn a checkmark next to the skill. When they have as many checkmarks as the current level of the skill, they temporarily stop being able to perform magic.  Soon, though, they are approached in some manner by the Great Being (an avatar, or a dream, or something like that), and are informed of what they have to do to fulfill their Debt.  Once they have performed their duty, their skill goes up a level, all checkmarks are cleared, and they have access to new magical abilities.
     These Debts usually start off small- the first one is always a token gesture, with no real consequences. But the higher the Acolytes level, the more demanding they become, until eventually the Acolyte is spending most of their lives in direct service to the Great Being.  Here's where it gets interesting, though;
     1.)  The Great Beings are almost all malignant. What they want you to do will often offend your sense of morals. Quite often, it will be dangerous.
     2.)  The Great Beings all hate each other. What they want you to do will often involve wreaking havoc on each other's Acolytes in one way or another. You may never know all the consequences of what a Great Being demands you to do.
     3.) If you don't fullfill your Debt, your life is forfeit. The Great Beings will be forgiving if you are percieved as working towards fulfilling your debt. The Great Beings may even let you have your next level of magic before you accomplish it, thereby letting you work up a new Debt that much faster. There's nothing a Great Beings loves to see more than an Acolyte using magic in order to fulfill a Debt.
     4.)  Once you reach a certain high level in a magic Skill, and fill all your checkmarks, the Great Beings send some horrible avatar of themselves to 'challenge' you.  The few Acolytes who know of this assume it is some sort of test, but in fact, this is how the Great Beings feed; they cultivate magical energies in people, then consume them when they are ripe.  Nearly all Avatars are killed at this point, but the ones that aren't become Warlocks, who are free of the bonds of the Great Beings, and can in fact bind Acolytes to themselves, giving magic and demanding favors much as the Great Beings do.
      5.) The Great Beings hate Warlocks even more than they hate each other.
      6.) The Great Beings can do nothing in this world, except grant humans powers, demand payment, and punish those who are neglecting their Debts.
     Now, this set-up is important, because in many ways, it will be the backbone of the setting. Crimes occur, cults are started, wars are fought, because of what Great Beings demand their Acolytes to do.  
 Now, my questions about this system are the following:
A) Do you like it? Can you envision this leading to a work of myterious power struggles and pointless violence, and does it seem like the kind of world in which you would like to play? Keep in mind this is going to be viceral horror- playing very much off the fear of agonizing death and violence.
B) One point of the set up is to confine high-powered Acolytes and Warlocks as antagonists. If any PC's find themselves with magic (most likely because an Acolyte taught them about it to pay off their own Debt), they are struggling to use it as little as possible. Of course, the Great Beings are using other Acolyte's Debts to force the PCs into positions where they need to use their magic to survive. Do you think this system will accomplish this?
C) Is this somewhat original? Am I unintentially ripping off some other game out there?

[TonyLB]

A player with an eye toward character advancement will be using their magic as much as possible, in order to boost their scores.

Alternately, they may see out tasks because the GM will be using these tasks to get them involved in the plot.  So being tasked is actually a guarantee of greater prominence in the story.

Either way, I see this system strongly supporting the idea that you should go out and accumulate debt as quickly as you possibly can.  Which would be fine, except that you've stated that your intent is the exact opposite.

[Uccisore]

Either way, I see this system strongly supporting the idea that you should go out and accumulate debt as quickly as you possibly can. Which would be fine, except that you've stated that your intent is the exact opposite.

    Yeah, you've got a couple good points there...it could easily end up with the Debts being viewed as challenges along the path to becoming a better magician.  An in fact, that is the way it would be viewed by some antagonists in the game.  I was relying on the general malicious intent, and horrible demands the Great Beings make to keep PC's from following this path. By being a great magician, one is essentially making themselves a slave...if that's not enough, can you think of some way to alter the set up to get my desired effect?

[FzGhouL]

I love it; Its really creative and cool. It'll set up great conflict and plot creation, anything that enhances characters with a bit of sacrifice and lot of work is great for plot. When I first started reading I was like "Blah." But by the end you got me. Nice job.
Its original enough. Good job dood.

[J. Campbell]

Nearly all Avatars are killed at this point, but the ones that aren't become Warlocks, who are free of the bonds of the Great Beings, and can in fact bind Acolytes to themselves, giving magic and demanding favors much as the Great Beings do.

I gather you meant to say "Nearly all Acolytes" in this one, as otherwise it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever towards that "feeding" bit. Anyways, on with some general commentary:


I personally don't like how quickly the magic advances. It's fine in theory, but as players grow more and more powerful, they become more and more involved with the tasks... which can mean that groups either have to all be tasked with the same responsibility, or be split up more and more to perform their tasks. Perhaps while you run a debt based system, make the advancement much slower, IE advancing at 5x your skill.

Second, the nature of the Great Beings means that players will be fighting each other quite a bit at higher powers, especially if they worship different Great Beings. I'm not a fan of games which encourage inter-party fighting, because it often breaks down into bitter feelings outside of the game.

Perhaps instead of tasks, the Great Beings demand a portion of a character's vitality? For example, what might be a robust and healthy young mage will go down the path of the Great Beings, becoming more weak and twisted as he goes... sorta like Raistlin. Has the same effect, but doesn't require the PCs to make an endless amount of sidequests. Perhaps even a small tattoo, ritual scarring, or whatever to mark the character as that Great Being's property. Eventually, when the mage's power peaks and he begins to develop the ability to use the magic on his own, without the debt of vitality, he is challenged. This time, the debt is his soul. At this point the mechanic might change to a matter of draining the character's own vitality to fuel his spells, just in time for him to try to smack down the messenger of Ab-Shoggath the Maimed.

This could be even more interesting if the players could eventually actually become Great Beings, or at least powerful enough to finally face down the ones hunting them. ;)
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[FzGhouL]

I gather you meant to say "Nearly all Acolytes" in this one, as otherwise it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever towards that "feeding" bit. Anyways, on with some general commentary:

No, see the Avatars lose bondage to the Greater Beings by proving their ability to fight, and thus the Warlocks can be HUGE plot devices.

Animosity between characters is great if the GM is fair to all of them; Fair GM = Lots of fun.

Give them a greater task to mold their team together; Like some quest where they HAVE to work together. Thats what I do.

[Uccisore]

I gather you meant to say "Nearly all Acolytes" in this one

I did indeed.

I personally don't like how quickly the magic advances.

  Yes, that's one thing I may tinker with, having it take much more than 'one use = one check' to advance in a skill. The general idea has to be there, though, that it's using the magic that pushes one closer and closer to owing a debt.
    One thing I need to clear up a bit. Over all, the players are going to be non-magical or barely-magical people combating Acolytes and Warlocks, and the horrible things the Great Beings make them do. Some PC's may turn to a little magic in order to do this, or may be tricked into learning magic without knowing the consequences, but the idea here is that anyone who goes to far into magic finds themselves forced into servitude to Beings that want to devour humanity. The system does fall apart somewhat if the players are determined to play magic-weilding characters out to further their own power, ala Unknown Armies.  Do I need to account for that in the mechanics, or is it enough to say that that is 'playing the game wrong'? :)  

or be split up more and more to perform their tasks. Perhaps while you run a debt based system, make the advancement much slower, IE advancing at 5x your skill.

I'm definately going to be doing something like that, now that I've read what you've said.

Second, the nature of the Great Beings means that players will be fighting each other quite a bit at higher powers, especially if they worship different Great Beings.

     Yeah, that goes back to the "Magic is bad" thing. If players do find themselves beholden to opposing Beings, it's likely that one will eventually be tasked to kill the other. I'm seeing the avoidance of situations like that, and not the situations themselves, as one theme of the game.  For example, your character knows that his patron Being hates my character's patron Being, and so you refuse to use magic, because the next time you do, you could be forced to kill (or maim, or eat)my character.  Nevertheless, other Acolytes that follow your patron Being are being tasked to force you into situations where using magic is extremely hard to avoid. If you have the power to heal, for example, a Acolyte in your neighborhood might be tasked to mortally wound a loved one of yours, all to force you into debt, and eventually to force you into being lunch for Nizzleknobs the Devourer.

This could be even more interesting if the players could eventually actually become Great Beings, or at least powerful enough to finally face down the ones hunting them. ;)

That is one of the ideas in the deep story of the game, that the Great Beings used to be human Warlocks, and Warlocks can increase their power by consuming the souls of their Acolytes, becoming more like the Great Beings as they go.  Whether any of this could involve PC's directly, I'm not sure.

    As far as demons consuming vitality, that was actually my original idea.  The problem I had with it was this:  Either the thing the demons ask for can be improved with character development, or it can't. If it can, all I'm doing is essentially putting an 'XP cost' on increasing in magic. If it can't, then the distance a character or NPC can progress in magic is defined for them when the character is made.  The idea of tasks avoids this, and I also like the idea of the Beings needing those tasks to act in the world; they aren't just arbitrary acts.

My next thread, when this one cools down, will be about how this all ties into Martial Arts.

[J. Campbell]

As far as demons consuming vitality, that was actually my original idea. The problem I had with it was this: Either the thing the demons ask for can be improved with character development, or it can't. If it can, all I'm doing is essentially putting an 'XP cost' on increasing in magic. If it can't, then the distance a character or NPC can progress in magic is defined for them when the character is made. The idea of tasks avoids this, and I also like the idea of the Beings needing those tasks to act in the world; they aren't just arbitrary acts.

Hmmm, this becomes an interesting dilemma, admittedly.

Alright, hows this: If characters can increase their vitality, more power to them. Perhaps draining their vitality is only part of the path towards the darkness? A byproduct, and over the course of the game, you don't lose too much, maybe just a couple points (IE if you're pale and sickly to begin with, it just makes you a little more pale and sickly and doesn't actually "cost" anything unless you try to buy it up with XP). Maybe a Humanity score, hidden from the players by the GM? Every time you're called in for a debt, your Humanity is drained, bit by bit? Sounds Vampirish, I'll admit, but it could be a pretty interesting mechanic... and it'd also help explain why characters forced or tricked into using the magic might be willing to go further and do more to pay off those debts.

Perhaps even make the magic subtly addictive, like a drug. Sure, it's not too bad when you begin. You could ignore that craving easily. But soon, magic calls for you, wants your soul... and as you sink, you're more and more ready to give in to it (IE your humanity lowers). Could be another point in favour of your whole corruption theme.

[Stickman]

Another possible mechanic: Players purchase 'fuel' for thier powers by performing sacrifices for their patron. The higher thier level of skill in magic, the greater the amount of fuel that is required. The 'fuel' is measured in ranks, but once they've brought 'fuel' of a certain rank, lower ranking stuff is no use to them. Let me try to give an example.

Bob, whose patron is the Thunder Mother, knows that he can generate 1 fuel by lighting a candle in a window. Through training / dreams / whatever he finds he can generate 5 fuel by placing a candle between two mirrors daubed with runes. If Bob does this, then yes he can earn more fuel but the first method no longer works for him. This then encourages him to use method 2 more, and when he learns of method 3 (something that pushes his boundaries a little more) he'll be more tempted to use it.

This system wouldn't necissary go hand in hand with automatically learning more powerfull spells / abilities, but if those abilities has rapidly increasing costs, then the temptation will be to make use of the more potent fuel generating methods.

Just an idea to get the player thinking about selling his soul without the world shattering powers :)

[Uccisore]

The 'fuel' is measured in ranks, but once they've brought 'fuel' of a certain rank, lower ranking stuff is no use to them. Let me try to give an example.

It would be tempting to do it that way, if I could preserve the surprise factor; something I really like about the current set up is that you have no idea what you're going to be tasked to do until you have to do it.

Perhaps even make the magic subtly addictive, like a drug. Sure, it's not too bad when you begin. You could ignore that craving easily.

I like that idea quite a bit. It would make sense that the Great Beings design their magic to be addictive, since they want people to do it. As far as the drain of humanity- that could be a side-effect of the addiction. Perhaps getting pale and freaky-looking is a side effect of withdrawals, or 'over-dose'?

[Brendan]

I think you've got an excellent mechanic here, and one that promotes a powerful kind of indirect player-GM collaboration.  If you've got players who like seeing their players get into trouble, you could rapidly develop some powerful plot elements together instead of having (as GM) to throw them all into the ring yourself.

I don't think the Vitality-drain and tasking mechanics are incompatible.  Maybe the main engine of magic would be serious vitality drain--enough to make players reluctant to use it, but still giving them an ethical option to use it when they had to.  Then, when the PC is coughing up blood in a seedy dive, wishing she'd never heard of magic, the Great Being pops up and dangles the chance to get a bit of permanent Vitality back...  in return for, oh, this little favor.

If it's something like "wipe out some other cultists," the PC will presumably accept it, and breathe a little easier.  Then the Great Being can trade more magic for health again--making the PC's permanent condition worse each time, even as she's comforted by the idea that she'll be able to get healthy eventually, until one day it's the favor that means her life or death...  which is usually along the lines of "kill your best friend."

I think this would promote the kind of Mafia don / drug dealer stance that seems to make the Great Beings really interesting (and if you ignore a favor, Sammy the Avatar fits you for concrete shoes).  It might also help reduce the side quests to a more manageable number--you wouldn't necessarily have to do a magic-debt quest every other time.

The other thing, of course, is that as her total maximum Vitality steadily decreases, the PC has to be much more careful with her magic, because the potential to do high qualities or quantities of it just isn't there--she doesn't have the Vitality to pay for it.  As she gains more skill, she's forced to become more subtle with what she does, which is a neat dynamic.

[Uccisore]

Then, when the PC is coughing up blood in a seedy dive, wishing she'd never heard of magic, the Great Being pops up and dangles the chance to get a bit of permanent Vitality back... in return for, oh, this little favor.

  Now, can they refuse the favor and choose to be sick forever, or is that when Sammy the Avatar shows up? The idea that the PC's are being offered something for doing the favor gives me the impression that it's optional.  In general, I like the idea of tying in the PC's health with magic, whether they suffer for using it too much, or start to suffer from not using it I'm still wondering about.
    You guys have made it clear that I can't have all the PC's running around on their private tasks if I want to have a coherent story line, and I agree with that. Increasing how much magic can be used before it is leveled (and a debt is incurred) will help quite a bit, I also think some of the tasks will be long term projects: "Initiate 50 Acolytes in My name" could be one that players work towards while playing through whatever storyline the GM has concocted, and whether they are working hard enough on it or not would be a matter of opinion for the Great Beings (GM).  They could be given a not-so-friendly reminders if they seem to be shirking their duties- that could even be when the vitality loss comes in. Every week or month or whatever, their Vitality drops a point, until they have completed their task, or they die and the GB collects his due.  
   Think of magic as a trap. It would make sense for it to be easy-peasy to get into, to a certain point. Once someone is into magic, they are on a freight train straight to hell. They can't get off or change course, all they can do is decide how fast it gets there. Even that isn't always up to them.

[TonyLB]

Are all the player choices equally fun, here?

It just sounds like you've put a lot more thought into the slow spiralling descent into magic-addiction than you have to people who decide not to follow up on it.

If you're secretly thinking "The game will work out so that players want to not use the magic, but of course they'll end up using it anyway" then this isn't an arena for player choice, and you should just say tell them they're going to do it, up front.  It's the hooded guy in a tavern offering you a job guarding a caravan.  You know they're going to take it, because that's where the game is, and they want to play, so why be coy?

Do you get what I'm saying?

[timfire]

One thing you can do to help slow the pace of advancement is to limit the number of checks a player can get over time. For example, you could limit it to one per scene, or something like that. It doesn't matter how much they use the magic in a single scene, they'll only get one check.

[Uccisore]

It just sounds like you've put a lot more thought into the slow spiralling descent into magic-addiction than you have to people who decide not to follow up on it.

   Well, that's really just because of the thread subject- the Martial Arts portion of the game is honestly more developed than this, and is more central to the game. Imagine Crouching Tiger, or Hero, except that the people who can walk on water and such bargained with the 'devil' in order to be able to do so- they are ruthless, terrible, and enviable at the same time. Characters who want to follow in their footsteps may well become unplayable after a while- just like a character in Call of Cthulhu who wants to be a great wizard will no doubt become unplayable after a while.

Do you get what I'm saying?

   I do, and yet, I think it's this kind of tension that makes it a horror game- magic is terrible, not worth the price, and the reason why the Big Bads in the game are the way they are, and yet, sometimes it may be the easiest way to stop them.  If I push it on the players, or, completely deny it to them, it loses some of the effect. I have to keep to this middle road, I think.  Violence in the game is handled the same way, but more blatant- it's so easy to kill or die, especially if you're using weapons like swords and such, and yet, violence is a central theme.
    I'm seeing the magic as avoidable, and the violence less so, but both of them there for the players. Violence is the hooded guy in the tavern, magic is...The Dark Side of the Force, or something like that.